Matthew Taylor: Why We Podcast

David Ames 0:11
This is the graceful atheist podcast United studios podcast. Welcome, welcome. Welcome to the graceful atheists podcast. My name is David and I am trying to be the graceful atheist. Remember, we have a merchandise store on T public, you can get all of your graceful atheist and secular Grace themed items there, the link will be in the show notes. If you're in the middle of doubt, deconstruction, the dark night of the soul, you do not have to do it alone. Join our private Facebook group deconversion anonymous and become a part of the community. You can find us at facebook.com/groups/deconversion I want to take a moment to celebrate this is the 200th episode of the graceful atheist podcast. A huge shout out to Mike t for all the editing work over the years. And a huge shout out to Arline who's single handedly carried the podcast over the last couple of months. I'll talk a little bit more in the final thoughts section about where the podcast goes from here. But celebrate with me that we have gotten to this huge mile marker. onto today's show. My returning guest today is Matthew Taylor. Matthew was on the show in 2019. Matthew is the co host of the steal unbelievable podcast. He and his colleagues, Andrew and David originally wrote a book in response to Justin Brierley. He's unbelievable book. And both the book and the podcast are kind of a response to that. Matthew has been a good friend over the years, and I was really glad to have him back here for the 200th episode. And today we discuss why we podcast what it is that drives us to do what we do and what we hope that the community gets out of it. Here's my conversation with Matthew Taylor.

Matthew Taylor, welcome back to the graceful atheist podcast.

Matthew Taylor 2:22
Hello, David. Fabulous to chat again with you who really is it's been a while we've just been talking Off mic about that. It's it's great to actually to see each other again as well and not just hear the voice.

David Ames 2:33
Yeah, absolutely. Just to set some context for everyone else. You are the co host of still unbelievable podcast that is in many ways a response to Justin Brierley is unbelievable podcast. You've written a book on that same subject, you've done a bunch of things I'd like to hear just from your words. You know, some of the projects that you've been involved in? Yes,

Matthew Taylor 2:54
quite few. So the whole thing all started with still unbelievable the book which came out a year after Justin brollies, unbelievable book came out. And we that's not where my story starts. But that's where this story starts. And so that came in, I jumped on board with that project made some great friends as part of that project. And out of that project was born the podcast still unbelievable, which I know most of we've, in the last few months passed through 100 episodes, which is great, but such episodes about for almost five years. So we're not as regular as other podcasts which we could mention David. And but so that came out. And we we did try a couple of podcasts. Actually, I did also do the asking at centers podcast for a while. And we we merged into that, but It rapidly became very obvious that we're trying to juggle similar content on two different feeds. And it made no sense whatsoever. And so asking atheist, anything in the proscenium feed, which it merged into, just quietly got dropped, because it just made no sense to carry on with that. I'm very happy with the decision that we made. We weren't going to get there. Like we weren't going to let go of the still unbelievable name because we like we like the brand still unbelievable. We like that it's a throwback to just embroideries, unbelievable podcasts, which anybody who talks in this space knows about so we feel that it was a good thing to keep on to that brand. And that brand has got us onto the radar of a couple of publishing houses. So it means that we do occasionally get an email from a publishing house saying, here is a book that we think you guys might like, which is a wonderful place to be we've had this past year 2023, enter and I have featured three authors on still unbelievable. Each one of those was a fabulous conversation, that conversation which I appreciated. I learned lots from each of those conversations. I'm really glad to be able to feature those kinds of people. And I don't pay for a book which for me is a double When. So I'm putting a lot of effort into still unbelievable. But we're we're not really a network, but we're part of a community of podcasts. You obviously one of them. David, who was part of the still unbelievable book project everyone's skeptics and seekers, we feature him and we're very tightly involved with him because Andrew and David Andrew, my co host, still unbelievable for those who don't know. So we're all we we are talking regularly and featuring each other regularly. Then there's Clint Haycock and ex American pastor here in the UK. On the mind shift podcast, I really like, Clint, I really like the way he thinks I really like the way he produces his podcast. So I've been on that for a while. But you know, yours and his podcasts were both right at the early days when I was featured on them. Early Days of lockdown. In fact, when I was, we didn't even know what COVID was when I was on your podcast. So the world has changed, and it's changed. Yeah. And what I've liked about that interim period is there's been an explosion of really good community groups, lots of Facebook groups, all around the kinds of space that that we talk in, people helping each other some UK centric ones, which is beautiful to see, as well. Because if no one can tell from my accent, I am based in the UK. And it's really good to see those. So I've joined quite a few of those. I'm not very active on them, because I am literally so busy. But it is really nice to see the communities building there and people helping people. And it's great, great to see that. And I like to think that these voices, though to verbal on all these podcasts are helping to facilitate that. Because when I was deconstructing podcasts weren't a thing. It was blogs. And I found a small blogging community when I was doing my deconstruction. And those guys really helped me being able to blog through some of my thoughts, and to be able to read other people's thoughts and us comment on each other's posts and help each other and support each other. I love that community. And those people I know I've moved out of that community, I'm now into podcasting. But I still look back fondly on those time because I needed people I needed people who understood me, I needed people who understood my fears in a visceral way, which nobody I knew we skin could comprehend. And those people at the other end of that keyboard, those people at the other end of those monitor screens, I never, I didn't need to hear their voice, I didn't need to see their faces, I just needed to read their words and their words were full of compassion, their words are full of love, their words are full of understanding. And I needed those people while I was going through that process. And technology is allowed much more dynamic ways of providing that. And I love the podcasting community that is doing that, or the various podcasts that have sprung up talking about that. And I love all the various Facebook groups, which provides some really, really good support to people. And it's wonderful to see that happen.

David Ames 8:11
So both of us have gone back and listened to your, your first episode on this podcast. That was in 2019. And a couple things that that just struck me about it. One is, you know, you can hear, I think both of us, but me in particular, you know, trying to figure out what is it that we do here? And the other is just what you just said that, you know, we weren't interested in bashing Christians. What we were interested in is finding community for people who were having doubts, deconstructing de converting what have you, and you in particular, were expressing that compassion for people going through that process? Yes,

Matthew Taylor 8:50
I was quite surprised that see how much that came across in the episode that recorded because I do need to give a health warning still unbelievable, can be a difficult place to be for people who are still sympathetic towards Christianity. I make no excuses for that I self described as spiky. Yes, graceful doesn't apply to me. And I'm glad that you do what you do, because I couldn't right. And so we are very different in that way. But our end goal and our desires for those who are in the place that we were both in however many years ago, it was, is necessary. And I do occasionally get emails from people saying that still unbelievable has helped them because it's helped them to frame their thinking. And that's what I tried to offer we still unbelievable. I critique Christianity in very particular ways in some of our episodes. And I think that's helped to frame some people in terms of how they think about Christianity and how they think about their experiences and how to frame the doubts that they are experiencing. and how to put words and logic and even science to some of those doubts. So just to put a little bit of a caveat Yes, I am for supporting the Deconstructor but there will be some spiking us on still unbelievable. So be aware of that I don't try to be a friendly place for Christians

David Ames 10:22
understand, and I think I think you also expressed the support for truth. And I think you said it by saying you wanted to stand up against inaccuracy. Yes, wherever that was. So I think both of those themes came across in your your earlier. Yes.

Matthew Taylor 10:37
Although having said that, I do try to treat my Christian guests as well as I possibly can. And some of the authors that we featured are Christian guests. And I don't know when this episode is going to go live, David, but and I spoil it for you. And in case this comes out before January next year, I have gotten the ken an episode that which I'm partway through recording where Andrew and I have interviewed the pastor in the US who's written a book on help. And the book is called Holy hell a case against eternal damnation. And the pastor who's written this book is a Universalist. And he gives a very strong case for universalism, and for a loving God, not being a god of eternal damnation, a loving God not being a god of eternal torment, loving God's being a god where everybody is brought to himself. And he produces a very what I think is a very powerful case for that, and we have a delightful conversation. For the first time in my life, I've uttered the words, I enjoyed reading a book about how, and I never thought I would ever, ever say that. But that is how I feel about this book. And I do know from what I've read in some of the various forums, hell is a problem. Hell is a problem for people in our position, how creates significant issues for people who are deconstructing, and I genuinely recommend this book, I don't care where you are on the deconversion spectrum, whether you intend to D convert or not. Whether you just want to deconstruct something and retain a faith, faith, or whether you are completely anti Christianity completely. If you're at all interested in the subject of how like genuinely recommend this book is called Holy hell a case against eternal damnation. It will be coming out in February next year 2024 hour episode with the author will come out at some point in January, the tail end of January next year, highly recommend it. It's going to be a beautiful episode, we enjoyed the conversation. And there are Christians out there who are fighting for us. No fighting for a loving experience of that kind of conversation.

David Ames 12:56
I actually want to ask you about your experience going on to Justin Brierley, these podcasts so and all of those work that you've done, that was a bit of a response to his work. And then you were on his podcast, which for anybody who might not know, for the three people who don't, you know, this is probably the one of the biggest, definitely focused on apologetics Christian podcasts in the world. And and so this was kind of a big deal. Absolutely.

Matthew Taylor 13:24
If somebody like me is going to be on any Christian podcast, unbelievable is one again going to be although, I should point out that within a few weeks of Justin then being on my show, because he was on my show immediately after me being on his. He then announced that he was leaving unbelievable. I mean, maybe it's a coincidence, but I'm definitely gonna milk that as much as I possibly can. And so, but yes, so Justin been doing that over 17 years, he'd be doing that. So I've now got a target for still unbelievable. They that's, that's the target that I'm aiming for. For still unbelievable. Actually, I am not going anywhere. So hang around. So I genuinely didn't think I would ever get on to unbelievable. I had been a regular listener for a very long time. And I had written just in on numerous times. And then out of the blue, I got an email with a book, LinkedIn into it. And I was copied in with a couple of other people. And Justin said to these people, I've got an author here. Here's a book. We need the layperson to have a conversation with him. Is anybody up for it? Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. So, so I had to chat with Mike De Virgilio and his book. What was it called an invented his hypothesis is the stories in the Bible read in such a way that they couldn't possibly be invented. I don't know how to describe that premise without breaking any kind of swear filters.

David Ames 14:54
You're fine. You can express yourself. It's bullshit.

Matthew Taylor 14:57
Frankly, it really is. It's It's utter utter bullshit. And to, to quote David from skeptics and seekers who is an ex pastor, and he is a philosopher as reader, he said to me offline, afterwards, he says, is read a lot of Christian books. And that one was, by a long way, the worst one that he'd ever read. So that was quite something coming from David. So I read this book on. And I think chapter two, he talks about something in the Dead Sea Scrolls, he makes a very specific claim about the quality of the texts in the decks, Dead Sea Scrolls. Great. Something I can fact check, because that's one thing I like to do a fact check. And anybody who listens to steal unbelievable, you should know that my show notes are always full of links from anything that it's fact checkable. In any episode that goes out, there'll be a link to it, if I can find it in the show notes. So always check the show notes if you're listening to still unbelievable, because they will be jam packed full of notes, and links and references to things to mentioned in the episode. So anyway, so I went along, and I tried to fact check this claim that he made about the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the accuracy is, and it was rubbish, is claim was falsified. The first thing I found out about Dead Sea Scrolls is the book, I think he mentioned specifically the book of Isaiah, if it wasn't Isaiah, it was one of the Prophet books, and the information that I found out about this book and Dead Sea Scrolls, that most people think it actually has two authors, two different people who've written it, and there's evidence of copying between the two. And in the various copies that were found in those caves, there are differences. So this entire claim that he'd made was completely falsified by literally 10 minutes of Google search, I didn't need to go deep. It was there really quickly. And I brought brought this up on that episode, and it was just roundly ignored. And he didn't even try to defend it and moved on. And that was deeply frustrating. But and the book was like that all the way through there was any everything that I could fact check was difficult. They basically failed. And most of it was based on what he called verisimilitude, which was, it sounds like it's too good to be true. Therefore, it must be too good to be true. It's it's such a, it really is such a weak thing on which to base base, any kind of case on that. And so my concern going on to unbelievable was once I got to be able to keep my call. I was genuinely concerned that I would just lose it and go off on a rant. And if I'm going to go on to anything high profile, that is the last thing that I need to do. Yeah. But I managed it, I managed to get through and Justin did say to me afterwards, he thought I did fairly well. And I got some really positive feedback from people still unbelievable. Got to notice for jumping the listeners, following that, that going out. So thank you to anybody who's listening to this and listened to that and join. So unbelievable. I really did appreciate the positive comments. But yeah, I'd have liked to have had a better quality conversation if I'm really honest. But it was quite an experience doing that on Justin show. I'm doing something so big.

David Ames 18:27
This is actually a topic that I want to explore just for a minute. I think in the early days of this podcast, you know, I thought, oh, I want to talk to more Christians. And in my mind, I thought of apologists. And for those of my listeners who don't pay attention to apologetics, my apologies. But that's what we are going to look at here. And I found the same thing. It didn't matter really who it was, I've interviewed probably, I don't know, three or four apologists like professional apologists. And my experience was that you, you know, you bring up a point that, you know, is kind of a fact. And they just walk around it. Right? Yeah, that was never the direct addressing of the point that you were making. And the better the apologist, the less they actually address the point that you're making. So I'm wondering, you know, after so many years of doing the podcast and talking to various different Christian authors, apologists, that kind of thing. How has that changed for you at all? Like how you approach a conversation like that? Possibly,

Matthew Taylor 19:30
I'm less forgiving of bad arguments. And I've noticed that over the years, I've definitely, and because I've seen so many bad ones. And when I first started interacting, I definitely took the attitude of I don't want to sell the typical stereotype of the angry atheist. I want to be thoughtful and I want to be considerate and because I understand Christianity, I want to at least to show to the Christian, a Christian attitude. But I've had so many bad responses in that kind of space, that I lose patience for that. And I'm, I'm not so keen and not so quick to go for the softly approach now, because I've tried it so many times where I've tried to gently feed and say, No, that's not quite that you didn't answer my question. And just try and rephrase it, rephrase it in a nice way, etc. And like you've just said, there's just no appetite to actually address it directly. So I've given up playing nice around that, and just go straight forward and call it out. I I'm wasting everybody's time. If I if I do that, let's go back to Justin. Because after that, I was on unbelievable. And then Justin came on to us. And we talked a little bit around because one of Justin's narratives and he comes, I think it comes out in the new book that's been I've not read it yet. I will, it was on my project list for 2024 is the book. He tries to push the thing about Christianity, being a global good being the source of all the great things that we have in society. And Andrew and I pushed him back on that, and we pushed him back quite firmly, and he just wouldn't budge. It was really, that conversation was really frustrating for Andrew, myself. And we ended up just moving on. And I had feedback after the episode from several people saying that they really didn't appreciate how hard Justin pushed on the Christianity has been a global good in these areas. And that particular subject is probably the biggest single subject that Andrew and I have had direct feedback on to an episode, people really did not appreciate the way that he was pushing that narrative. Too many people saw straight through it didn't like it. And so because Justin was a big name, and he and I both wanted to be polite, we didn't push it as hard as we could have. And I think if I was to repeat it, I probably be rude or pure, purely because I think this point needs to be made very strongly. And I think there's a danger. It's a balance, David, it genuinely is a balance in how we respond to prominent Christians, because there's this Christian narrative of, oh, they're an atheist, they're going to be rude, and they're going to be rude and angry is because they're a bitter atheist. Now I can write off everything they say. So we're under pressure to be on good behavior. Because the second we let that slip, oh, it's just atheists are going through, you know, they now you see their true colors, whereas a Christian is actually granted space to lose it. They're actually given grace, if they lose it. And there's this disparity there in expectation and judgment, of behavior. And I'm getting a little bit tired of that. So some of the episodes I've done also unbelievable. They've been solo episodes, where I've reviewed a Christian podcast, and I just go for it on those episodes, I ramp up the sarcasm, I'll put in appropriate sound effects for things now now raise my voice. And I'll really hit it because I think people need to hear an emotional response. Sometimes these I don't think it works all the time, to have this kind of thing. So I think if I was to have thing, have that again, and if I ever managed to tempt Justin, don't listen to this. If I ever tend to just him back onto still unbelievable. Again, I think I'll be less calm. And I think I'll push back a lot harder, because I think I think these narratives need to be pushed back more. Maybe we're going to get a new dawn of the new atheist and that kind of polemic. That's me, does that give you the answer you're expecting?

David Ames 23:50
No, I think that's a good answer. I think where I landed was about consistency. Oh, I'm

Matthew Taylor 23:56
not consistent. You're you're consistently graceful. I couldn't hold it up. Other episodes too little.

David Ames 24:05
Ya know, what I mean is when I'm when I'm interacting with particularly an apologist, right, for example, your author makes the argument about verisimilitude. It sounds too good to be true. So it must be true that I would respond. So the, you know, the Muslim says that it's a miracle that the Quran exists, right. So that is the exact same arguments, and so you have to be consistent, both of those things would have to be true. So are they both true or using a bad argument? And, and I don't think that that changes their mind at all. I still think they just go around it but but for me, the way that I've communicated these days is to say, I need to be consistent. And so if you are going to lower the bar of evidence required for something that lowers it everywhere, not just for your particular religious claim. Yes.

So part of what we wanted to talk about here is why we podcast. Yeah. And so I'd like to hear first, we've talked about a little bit but what why you started why you and Andrew began this process. And then maybe a little bit about why you continue to do that. Yes,

Matthew Taylor 25:17
there's some some good points were made there. So as I mentioned, when I was first on, it wasn't on my radar to podcast. And then Andrew and David off the back of still unbelief for the book thought well, that this brand, this momentum needs to continue. And they were right. So and podcasting is taking off? No, there's a deconstruction space that needs voices. Let's do it. So we started a small number of podcasts asking atheists anything we've talked about which has gone by the wayside although the episodes I believe are still available, if you there are some interesting episodes. If people want to look that up and listen to them. I will be gradually going through the back catalogue of that and picking off some of the best ones and rebroadcasting them on to still unbelievable, because we've got new listeners who might appreciate them. Yeah, so but it was never on my my radar to do it. And then probably David bless him everything is David's fault over at skeptic. It seems like everybody I know called David is responsible for something happening in my life. So David said, David F. Skeptics and seekers, yes. David Johnson Oh, from skeptics and seekers. And his guy I respect immensely. He helped me find my writing voice is complimented me immensely on my own writing. And he said, Matthew, I think you'll have a good voice for podcasting. Plus English accent, you know, what's what, what's to lose? And I genuinely I've loved it. And when I started was a little bit of a shaky start. I don't listen to some of our first couple of episodes I'm sure I would shivering, embarrassment. But we got it going, we managed to capture a couple of interesting guests. So we pick Greczyn momentum carried on and then we start getting some really interesting guests, people I really enjoyed speaking to I think my first high profile on was John Stein guard, I, I stalked him after he was on unbelievable. It took me a couple of months to find him. I eventually managed to find him on Instagram, I think and sent her a message. And he responded very positively. We had a joyful conversation with John Stein guard, which who I believe you had a conversation with John, as well. Fabulous, fabulous individual. And now suddenly, you say I'm a podcast, suddenly starts to open doors. And I've managed to reach out and I reached out to Joshua sama Das, who's a Christian apologist has written a book on the called the genealogical Adam and Eve. Interesting scientifically, I'm not entirely sure some of the things he says are safe, in terms of the conclusions he's come to. But definitely, if you're that way inclined, it's potentially an interesting book. There's lots of references, very technical, enjoyed the conversation there. And I've really enjoyed those kinds of conversations. And conversations are where it sets really have having good quality conversations, because you can show to each other when you're doing it across the table, having a conversation which is productive, and friendly, which I've managed to have, despite what I've said about spikey, and all that helps to see the other person as a human. And that helps conversation, I think, humanizing the opponent having an actual conversation with them. Lotter not a text based conversation, but actual conversation, has done wonders for my attitude towards Christian individuals. And I hope has done the same the other direction, because those kinds of things I've enjoyed the most. And like say Earthman said, the publisher have contacted me twice now with a Christian author. And we've had that conversation. The second one is one I just told you about. About the Hell yeah, if people don't see value in some of those conversations, they're not going to reach out and say, here's a book I think you should read. Here's an author, I think you'd enjoy a conversation with no, that must surely be a risk for somebody to push a Christian author on to a podcast like still unbelievable and say, I think this is the conversation you're you're like, because the gamble that they're taking is engineers, atheists will a pan the book, and then be continued to pan the book, and they've seen the panic with extra venom, you know, and then D continue to talk about it for the rest of the year about how awful that bloody book was. That's the risk that they take. And both times that I've had that contact, I've had a fabulous experience reading the book and and the fabulous conversation so I think it pays dividends to actually reach out and So I've reached out I said, I reached out to Joshua sama Das, I've reached out to Steve Chalke, who's the big name in the UK people outside the UK might not be familiar with the name. But certainly Christian people who from the Christian tradition in the UK will know the name, Steve Chalke fabulous conversation, it's sometimes it's worth making that reach out to somebody you never know, who you'll catch. And I think humanizing other people and having those lovely, pleasant conversations, actually is better than being spiky. Really, honestly, when it gets down to the bottom of it. It's worth it. And also, I think the reason why it's worth having those conversations across the aisle like that is look as on regardless of where they are, whether they're transitioning from one side to the other, or whether they're just hovering in the murky ground in the middle, will probably appreciate those conversations as well. And it probably just helps them to focus some of the thinking that they have some spiky people as well, let's Let's aim for the pleasant conversations because I get so much more out of those pleasant conversations I mentioned earlier about, sometimes I do those really snarky episodes, I actually get more pleasure. I got a lot more pleasure out of that conversation that I've just told you about. With Derek about his holy hell book I got so much more pleasure out of that. I do out of three episodes where I rip apart a Christian podcast talking about stuff I don't like.

David Ames 31:32
What do you get out of it? So you basically have been saying that you know, that these conversations I think are meaningful for you? Is that part of why you continue to podcast?

Matthew Taylor 31:40
Yes, definitely. Definitely. It is. And one of the big question marks over the whole deconversion deconstruction experiences, purpose and meaning you I grew up in a Christian condition where I was taught from a very young age and went into adulthood, God has a purpose for you, God has a plan for you, you know, part of what you need to do is find out what God wants you to do in your life. And one of the things that I experienced as a young 20 year old was, you're going to chuckle at this, I promise you. I was at a big evangelical meeting. And there was also it was it was a weekend and there was teaching and seminars and stuff like that. And at one of these big meetings, somebody came in, says, I've got a prophet here with us. And he's going to look around the room. And then at one point, he's going to walk around the room, and he's going to see if God's telling him about any of the people that so he did this, and this guy did this, walk this round the room, and then they came back in the couple of words, etc, etc. And then next thing I know, me, I was literally I was in the back row of this meeting. Literally, I got singled out from the front. And he pointed me out. And I said what mean, I pointed the person next to me said no, no, no, no, no. You said that guy there. He's going to have an apostolic ministry. And of course, my knees buckled under me, I sat down, you know, this was an emotional thing that I simply struggled to cope with. And yeah, I that weighed on my mind for quite some time. You know, and I was given some words of wisdom and advice about that. Because being singled out to be an apostle is quite a big thing. This wasn't just somebody who had a good teaching ministry, or was somebody who was going to bless the people, you know, this is somebody who's going to have an apostolic ministry, you know, it was, it was a big, big thing. So that weighed on me for years. And so how do I fulfill this prophecy? You know, when you come from a Christian tradition, where, you know, part of what you're supposed to be doing is looking for what God wants for you literally looking for God's purpose in your life, that creates an awful lot of stress. And I've seen people struggle with that very idea. How do I know if this thing that I'm doing is part of God's purpose in life? How do I know if buying this house is part of God's purpose for my life? How do I know if marrying this person is part of God's purpose? For my life? I don't feel like I've got a purpose in my life. And here I am just merrily having a family and going to church, you know, shouldn't I be doing something really great. And the I've seen so many people hurts by this very idea. And then you of course, when you deconstruct and you leave Christianity, this question doesn't go away you go, okay. Now what do I do about purpose because it's now embedded into life after decades of teaching, that you need to find a purpose for your life, your life has a purpose. You just need to find it. You know, it's this this whole thing you know, for sit on a mat and look to the dawn and why not just do what you love. If some thing gives you pleasure, do it and enjoy it. And if you enjoy it, it will be purposeful. Yeah, it's and make it as simple as that. And that took someone learning for me. And podcasting, this conversation that having you is actually energizing me, David, I'm loving, I'm really enjoying. And when I have conversations like this on still unbelievable, it energizes me. And sometimes I can come away from the microphone, it can be half past 10 At night, there'll be buzzing. And I have to go grab a hot chocolate, do my old man thing sits in bed, what's on what's on the crime genre and watch something because I need an hour to wind down. And then I get up at six o'clock the next morning to go and do a day's work.

David Ames 35:48
I would definitely say that it's very similar for me. And I was more explicit about this in the early days that I was doing it selfishly, I needed to be able to talk to people about what I was going through, as well. And then this podcast fell into, you know, more of the deconversion stories as the main theme. And that in those early days was just still very important for me to be able to talk about what I was going through as well. And I felt like I got more out of it than the people I was interviewing.

Matthew Taylor 36:21
Yes, I like it when we have an episode. Like that. And I like getting feedback, you know, underneath No, sometimes we have a little ego there that needs a little scratch. So guys, send feedback, do reviews on Amazon, and Spotify and iTunes, do all that kind of thing, because it genuinely scratches us. And it helps us produce content content that you guys like listening to. So please, reviews, reviews, reviews that let's do. That's really great. I love having feedback. It's really good to have had feed feedback from people in various scenarios. And it's even more strange to occasionally get feedback from a Christian saying, Can I have a conversation with you guys? Having an email like that just kind of, does he listen to my back catalogue? Does he?

David Ames 37:12
Yes, yeah.

Matthew Taylor 37:14
So that's why I continue to do it because I find that it motivates me and yeah, I am a busy guy. I do work more than my contracted hours because I'm in a very busy job. And on top of doing this, I do community theater as well. And for anybody who knows what it's like to do amateur dramatics, you know, when it comes up to, to doing a show, you get end up with a very, very busy couple of weeks with rehearsals and technical recur called rehearsals into dress rehearsals and then show it comes along and you literally don't sleep the entire week. Yeah, it's, it's hard, and it wipes me out. Yeah, and I do two shows a year, sometimes three or four shows a year. And that can completely wipe me out. This year I was in wasn't quite in two shows, I was doing front of house for one show, which is a busy job in itself, you know, talking to the community, making sure everybody's got their seats, making sure everybody's got their tickets and all this kind of thing, sorting out any issues that that come up. And that kind of thing is a very different role. Very busy role, very stressful role. And then two weeks after that was in the show. So as you know, it's it can get very, very busy doing that kind of thing. And I'm doing that on while also trying to schedule guests for a podcast, while also doing a full time job. And then, as you've heard a couple of times, I'm still trying to recover from a code that I had when I was on playing when you get over that magical 50 sore throats hang around for a ridiculously long period of time. And it's really, really frustrating.

David Ames 38:57
We've talked a bit about how it affects us. I'm curious how you think our podcasting podcasting in general in the secular world affects the community. And just as a bit of context, when I started I was I was responding to there were lots of angry atheists. There were lots of mostly debates, mostly hostile interactions, and I was interested in having human conversations more more person to person, you know, again, as to use your words, respecting the other person's humanity. And that felt new at that moment. Yeah. And in between then and now. The whole deconstruction movement took place, right? We were kind of at the tail end of the atheist kind of movement and then became this deconstruction movement as it were. And so I'm just curious how you think your podcasts what you and Andrew were doing and are doing has had an impact on that that community?

Matthew Taylor 39:55
Well, let's start with you. I guess we've touched base twins. The 19 must was it was it was it was it 2018 We first exchanged emails, it was around about that period anyway.

David Ames 40:05
Yeah. 2019 Yeah.

Matthew Taylor 40:06
And I've loved listening to your podcast growing in popularity, and I wished if your podcast had existed, when I was deconstructing it would have been an enormous help for me. So I think what your podcast does what the rest of atheist podcast does, is immensely valuable. And I hope it never goes away. Yes, I've heard you say it as well. And yes, not everybody wants to listen to a new deconversion story every week, for some people is a period of time in which it's really helpful. And then then they move on. And I've seen this in the community, some people come, and then they go, No, they've now they've shed their burden. They don't want to dwell in it anymore. And they need to move on.

David Ames 40:56
Yeah, I describe it as either aging out or maturing out. Yeah, it's no longer necessary for that person.

Matthew Taylor 41:01
Let me make it personal for a bit. I'm the eldest of three brothers. We all grew up in the same environment. We all suffered the same traumatic divorce of our parents in Zambia, we're all very familiar with the Zambian missionary environment. Listeners, you're going to have to listen to my original episode where I give more context this, but my two brothers do not talk daily about their past Christian faith. It's not relevant to them. It's not important to them. Yeah, I even talked with my youngest brother, I'm actually going up to see him tomorrow morning to have spent a couple of days with and helping out with this house. I'm really looking forward to a long weekend weekend with him. Yeah. Brothers, we bond. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to that time with him. But I did say to him one day, I said, you know, maybe you and I could do a good episode on some belief or talk about our experiences, I'm sure we appreciate it. And he said, you know, they're not interested do not do nothing. And for some people, that's fine. You know, I'm not going to raise the subject, again, is we know, we've had that conversation. Fine. You know, it's, it's pointless me pushing it. Yeah. And because all I do is force him to rethink things that he doesn't care to think about. We've got better brotherly things to talk about which we'll both appreciate. And that's perfectly fine. You know, let's just lay that out there. No, wait, once you come in, and you join this community, you're not bound to it, you know, there, there are no pointy fingers. If you decide that it's not for you anymore, you know, we're not going to continue on condemn you to atheist hell for your turn or torture. Because you, you feel that this isn't serving you anymore. So for some people, the service that our content provides is, is temporary. But for other people, they want to hang around. And for those that hang around, you know, there can be a new role. And the role is holding hands with the newcomers, because there's always people coming in. And that's the one thing I've noticed, is being part of these deconversion deconstruction groups, and watching your podcasts specifically, grow. I'm not going to hint about any kind of jealousy about your podcast becoming really, really popular. I'm not gonna say through any kind of gritted teeth, whatsoever, but I'm really glad that your stories and there are others as well. I can't remember the tales of deconversion. Is that what it's called, or something like

David Ames 43:39
voices of deconversion? Like, which Steve hilliker Like I give him a lot of credit for you know, I'm basically ripping him off and doing what he did.

Matthew Taylor 43:48
But yeah, and it's a necessary thing. And it's nice to see people getting something new out of every episode. And it's nice to see people hang around to help those. But yeah, can you imagine how busy the space would be if every single D converter hung around town to welcoming all the new ones, it will become crowded and it will become untenable. It's perfectly appropriate for those. They've sorted out their deconstruction, grief, they've got to a comfortable place with any trauma they carry. It's time for them to move on because it's no longer good for them. Move on, is there are plenty of people around I think that's why I hang around. Because I've seen a lot of pain. I've experienced a lot of pain. And even now I still learn about things which shocked me and surprised me. So I still want to be around to be a voice for others. And every now and then they'll see somebody will ask a question in one of the deconstruction posts and I'll see some of the replies here and now. Add on saying yes I wouldn't say it was right. That's really good advice or so. Like, you guys have just had the most religious holiday in the United States, your Thanksgiving, weekend. And

David Ames 45:13
tongue in cheek? Yeah.

Matthew Taylor 45:16
What what happens when I noticed it when Thanksgiving comes up, is the deconstruction groups always say, there will be somebody will say help. I've got a parent coming round for the weekend, there's going to be this, there's going to be that, how do I handle this I need, I need something, etc, that's going to happen every single year. And there'll be somebody new every single year with that trauma with that panic. And it needs people to hang around to go, Yeah, I've been there, or your home your rules, you know, you're perfectly entitled to say to the parent, this is my house, you're an adult now. Because some people have a complex relationship with their parents, I've, I've still got I mentioned in that discussion, I still got a complex relationship with my father, I came out to my dad fulcrums, eight years ago now, I think it was atheists in a conversation. I didn't intend to, but the conversation went went into a particular direction. I just went low. We're not going there. I'm atheist. Now that's not happening. And he's not spoken to me about that particular subject again. But I've heard from my brother that he wants to, that he wants to talk me out of my atheism. Right. My brother just said, don't just just don't do it, you know, that will not end well do not have that conversation with Matthew. And my brother was a barrier. But you see, he had that conversation with my brother because he couldn't have it with me. And so even me, and I'm a very confident atheist, I can stand my ground and I will stand my ground if I need to, even to the overbearing parent, I just won't hold back and I will do it. Not everybody has got that confidence. Not everybody is secure to be able to do that. And so they need these forums, they need these groups to say, Help. Has anyone been in this situation? And half a dozen people go? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And they'll give their experiences. So we need those people to hang around, and to pass on the advice. And for those who feel comfortable hanging around, post deconversion. To be to be as part of the hands holding crowd. God bless you people, you are wonderful. You are here to say God bless. unicon bless you wonderful people. You are an asset to this community. Yeah, I did do that on purpose, obviously, David.

David Ames 47:58
So another thing that we share, that's definitely not unique. But it is interesting is that we have believing wives.

Matthew Taylor 48:06
Yes. How did that happen? David, we couldn't invent that. It's, um, it was quite peculiar to find out that we had that in common. And I'm wondering what it is about the spouse of a believer the form that they end up in doing this, what we're doing, isn't that scenario motivation to not do this?

David Ames 48:30
Yeah, it's definitely interesting. Let me address that question in just a second. I want you to talk about your wife and whatever generics or specifics that you want to get into. But my wife is a deep believer, right? If she never put foot in a church again, for the rest of her life, she's probably still going to be a believer. Right. It's internal for her on a super deep level. And I respect her faith, even though I think she's mistaken. All right. Yeah. So like I want to convey like it is about as opposite as you could be. The one thing that we do have going for us is I think politically, we're more aligned. And the two of us really care about people. Yeah. And we both do and in our various different ways. Try to help people and I think it's that shared values that is enabled us to get through what was a pretty rocky period of time going through this transition. When I said I had no longer believed in regards to what makes somebody motivated for this. You know, I think it's, it's in spite of that, like, my biggest concern, when I started was, I didn't want to hurt my wife. I didn't want her to feel attacked or abused. And yet, I had to talk about this stuff I had to because it was killing me. And so, you know, we've come to an uneasy detente, right. I can't say that she's happy about it, but she accepts that this is something that I do, right. Yeah. So I'm curious what your experience has been like. My

Matthew Taylor 50:00
wife would probably echo exactly the same things that you've said about your own. So we are very much aligned. And yes, it would kill me not shut up, I am very much a dog with a bone kind of personality. I wouldn't say that I was necessarily intellectual, but I like intellectual challenge. I like I like consuming scientific content. And I like discourse. And I like challenge. And doing still unbelievable and doing it with Andrew fulfills so much of that. And I love it. And I love listening to the other various atheist and some Christian podcast as well. I really enjoy consuming that content as well as creative. But all the things here, yes, it's uncomfortable as well. And my deconstruction was marred with fear. I genuinely believed that my deconversion at the point where I got to the point where I was fairly sure it was inevitable. I genuinely believed that would spell the end to marriage that I didn't want to end. And that, despite everything else, ignoring everything else, that little snip it in on itself is traumatizing, and fear inducing, and even paralyzing. Yeah. And when you go and read blog, after blog after blog of somebody in the same situation, and every single one of them is the marriages have failed. The attrition rate of marriages in this space is frighteningly high. You and I have gone against the odds, let's be open and honest about that. And yes, part of it is my wife and I are politically aligned. Politics has shifted over the last 20 years, and it's shifted in the same direction. We are very much aligned on an awful lot of things. And my wife's job is for a charity here in this part of the UK, which coordinates mentoring. So adults mentoring, usually teenagers who are in a problematic scenario and helping those teenagers to develop and foster a mature relationship with an adult, somebody they can confide in, who they can trust, who can give them adult advice, who has got the backing of professionals, if there should be anything problematic. And she finds that immensely fulfilling. And we talk about that actually tells me about a job an awful lot. And I'm interested in the job. And I'm interested in the technicalities and the things that are achieved in that job and off the back of doing that job she's doing. She's done one degree in child psychology, she's just started a second. And, you know, that is massively for funding for end, we are both on the same page with regards to the need for that. And I'm quite happy with whatever way I can to support her in doing that, so there is much for us to celebrate together. We don't she might. She might disagree, but we don't inverted commas need Christianity to in order to create a successful marriage. And I think that's why we've managed, it's not been easy. It's not been smooth sailing. And in the past 10 years. I'm obviously not going to go detail on these specifics. I'm not going to say anything about my wife that might later regret. But the conversation of separation did come up at some point during there. And we did talk it through and discern it didn't go didn't progress very far. We decided it was really nothing that either of us particularly wanted to stomach. Neither of us was in a mindset where it was something we wanted to seriously progress. And so it just really didn't go anywhere. It was a very short conversation, not to be brought up again. So don't read so this this please don't read too much into I've probably talked more about this than we actually talked about it. Don't Don't read too much into that. But I would like to say that for the Christian spouse of somebody who leaves. Life can be hard life can be difficult. I remember as a 20 something or going to church and knowing women at church whose husbands weren't believers, and they would come to church and they will come to church events and the husband was never there. Now remember, pitying those women and there is no better description of the patronizing attitude we took to those women then to at them, you know, why couldn't we treat them as individuals are their own rights? You know, they they don't they don't exist for their husband to be there with them. They are a person, they're an individual in their own right. Why couldn't we have treated them as persons and individuals in their own right? Why did we look at them as if they were incomplete? Because her husband wasn't coming to church? Now? What a shocking way to look at it. But my experience my decision for lack of a better word, although,

you know, we could talk about that I, it wasn't a decision, but let's just call it a decision. For the time being,

my decision has forced my wife into that scenario. Right. And she doesn't enjoy it. Let's be honest about that. She has responsibilities and church, she occasionally preaches a church, but she is that woman at church without a spouse? Yeah. And if people in the church pair up in couples to go out and socialize, she suddenly finds that she's intentionally or otherwise excluded, possibly because she's overlooked. Or if there'll be a conversation with somebody, and it's happened on more than one occasion, she will be talking with somebody at church who's relatively new. And they'll have seen Sarah up at the front of the church, either preaching or doing some other parts of the service. And they'll say to her, they said Mr. Taylor, yeah. And then chesco Now what what answer do I give now, you know, how much detail is safe to give to this individual? Yeah. And it creates a hell in church, for for those spouses. It's not pleasant for them. And, but I can't set foot in a church on a weekly basis, it's, it's not something that's pleasant for me. I've got other things I'd rather be doing. I'm usually editing a podcast when she's at church on on Sunday morning. And, and so it creates this, this, this inner conflict within each of us, I know that I've condemned her to this. And she knows that sometimes she'll have a less than pleasant experience at church purely because there isn't a man by her side. And for many, many spouses of the converted person, this is the hell of going to church. And I don't have an answer to that particular, maybe it's not mine to solve, maybe it's churches need to find a way to solve that. So, you know, sometimes in the deconstruction space, we can talk about us, and our trauma of deconversion. And our fear of leaving. But there are casualties that we cause as part of that journey as well. It's not our fault, I want to be very quick on that. It isn't our fault, that there are casualties now, and those people are wrong to blame us for what's happened. But that is sometimes how they feel. And that is the side effect of that. And we need to have compassion for those Christians in our lives. And Sarah and I are still navigating that. Incidentally, I need to say this, I went on to the grateful atheist YouTube channel. And because I was on it in 2019, and then my wife in beginning of 2020, she's got more than three times the number of views of her YouTube is something this is not a good place to be. If you've got an ego, that's just putting

David Ames 58:38
you know, we are quite entangled. So I did interview your wife, I thought that was really good conversation. I thought that she was really courageous to come on to the podcast, that was a brave thing to do. And then my wife listened to your wife's episode is maybe the only episode she's listened to. And then I had my wife on in I think it was late 2020. I don't think she'll ever do it again. Yeah, but it was interesting, like that interact, interaction, her hearing, Sarah story was part of that.

Matthew Taylor 59:08
I would love to have a conversation with a spouse of a D converted, unbelieving spouse of a D converted person. It doesn't have to be your wife. But if you if you or any listener has any context to a believing partner, who would love to, I would love to flesh out the things that I've just been talking about, about the experience of the Christian. I think Sarah is very much have the same mindset as your wife. Yeah, it's, I'm too close. I'm, I'm too personal. It would be inappropriate for me to even ask Sarah, to have that conversation with me live on air. This is something that's personal between us. I would never ask and I wouldn't I probably wouldn't even want it if I'm honest. But if somebody does have believing spouse, gender is unimportant, to talk through this kind of experience to see where how They judge what I've just said, and how we navigate this kind of thing. But it's it's a difficult situation. And so many people come into these deconversion groups with a believing partner. And some of the stories have genuinely moved me to tears, you know, marriages disintegrating in deeply unpleasant tones. And it's horrific to read and watch. That pain that must happen. It just touches the fears that I had 10 years ago, 10 plus years ago. And yes, those those experiences are still very real for people and those people. We need to work out a way to love people through that particular trauma. Because it's got to be the worst part of this kind of experience.

David Ames 1:00:46
Yeah, I would be interested in talking to more spouses, as well, or partners of any kind. But to hear their perspective also.

Matthew Taylor 1:00:55
Maybe we could probably do it as a duo. Actually, David, I think that would probably work really well. You could be my Andrew for a day, and I'm sure. Very pleasant. So Jay, this is a genuine request to people listening to this. If you know somebody who could be there, please get in touch with David via all the contact details that he gives. On your show, I think it'd be a genuinely worthwhile conversation.

David Ames 1:01:18
Matthew, I think we could keep talking for a long time, but actually want to end on this note, because I think what we've just talked about was just really important. But I do want to give you a moment to again, plug your podcasts and how can people get in touch with you? Wow,

Matthew Taylor 1:01:31
okay. Yeah, so still unbelievable is where to find me any other podcasts associated with my name is, is probably unsafe to search for because they might not exist anymore. So search, still unbelievable or recent press dot there. Matthew Taylor is a depressingly common name. So try not to search Matthew Taylor on the internet, you'll find all sorts of other people. I had a very strange experience listening to to one podcast and it was a new evangelicals podcast, and introduced a guest Dr. Matthew Taylor talking about something to do with deconversion. I'm gonna say, Okay, it's not me from when I certainly don't have a doctorate. So that's the best place or recent press@gmail.com is the email address to use, or friendly mail or hate mail if necessary. You can contact me using that way. I love being in this space. I love having feedback. I love having the conversations with people. So but yeah, so I listened to a ridiculous number of various podcasts of all stripes and things to to create the content that I do for still unbelievable. Thank

David Ames 1:02:45
you, Matthew for being back on the podcast. It was amazing to get back in touch. Really appreciate it.

Matthew Taylor 1:02:50
Thank you, David always

David Ames 1:02:58
final thoughts on the episode. As Matthew points out, still unbelievable. And the work that he has done has really been an anti apologetics perspective. He calls himself spiky. But one of the things I loved about re listening to our conversation from 2018. And this conversation is just how much Matthew cares about people and that just comes out in in particular people who are in the middle of the deconstruction process, and the empathy that he has for that process having gone through it himself. One of the most important topics that we discussed is being married to believers, and how much we respect our spouses. I know that many of you are in unequally yoked relationships in one form or another. And that is a very, very difficult topic. A shout out again to Matthew's wife, Sarah, who did come on the podcast that was amazing. My wife who came on the podcast as well, even though I know that was incredibly difficult. I want to thank Matthew for being on the podcast on this 200th Podcast. I really appreciate Matthew's perspective. And he has been a fantastic friend. Thank you so much, Matthew. For the secular grace, thoughts of the podcast, it is about humanism. This podcast has been from day one about humanism, being human, embracing our own humanity, embracing the humanity of others. And part of that is recognizing my personal humanity. As I mentioned a few months back between work and family life, all of these are good things. I've had less and less time for the podcast. So it is time for a break. That break will be for an indeterminate amount of time, and not sure how long but I know that I'll come back For this, I know that this is not the end, this is not goodbye. This is until we hear each other next time. I have loved doing this podcast, we've done it for almost five years. Now, as we mentioned earlier, the 200th episode, could not have done it without Mike T, doing all the editing without Arline, doing interviews, managing the community, and 1000 other things. And most of all, has been amazing talking to you. As I said, in my conversation with Matthew, I started this for selfish reasons, I needed to talk about it myself. And I just hope that somebody else might be interested. And I cannot believe to this day, how many of you have listened over the years. And also, as we mentioned in the conversation, how many of you have grown out of it? That's fantastic. That's a best case scenario. And I'm really, really grateful for all of that. So I have some ideas about when I come back, I want to reset just a bit back to a focus on humanism. I'll talk about this more in the next episode, which again, indeterminate amount of time when that will be. I also believe that the podcast will go into seasons, rather than being year long, doing maybe three months sessions, spring and fall, something like that something that's maintainable and not quite as exhausting. But I have a number of ideas for future episodes already kind of planning those in my head. And when I feel invigorated again, to do them, you will hear them here. For those of you who are Patreon supporters, again, I 100% give you the freedom to cancel that support. I cannot promise how often episodes will come out going forward. And those were not the original terms in which you began supporting the podcast. If you do stick around if you do decide that you'd like to continue to support the podcast, that's fantastic. I will use that will continue to do the zoom for the community, as well as future production value for the podcast itself. As a year end to 2023 and the hiatus and break for the podcast I just want to say thank you to you the listeners for being here participating being a part of the community. That is why I podcast. Until next time, my name is David and I am trying to be the graceful atheist. Join me and be graceful human. The beat is called waves by MCI beats. If you want to get in touch with me to be a guest on the show. Email me at graceful atheist@gmail.com for blog posts, quotes, recommendations and full episode transcripts head over to graceful atheists.com This graceful atheist podcast part of the atheists United studios Podcast Network

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Sara: Christian Humanism

Bloggers, Deconstruction, ExVangelical, Humanism, Mental Health, Podcast, Religious Humanist, Spiritual But Not Religious

This week’s guest is Sara. Sara grew up in a Canadian Mennonite community and embraced it wholeheartedly. She was surrounded by evangelical Christianity and she thrived.

As a young adult, she married and followed her husband into ministry. While he led, she helped as was expected of her. It didn’t occur to her until years later how little her own leadership skills had to be set aside.

Sara’s husband started deconstructing his beliefs before she did, but as he was learning, she was also learning. Years later, she knew he’d become an atheist before he did.

It wasn’t easy, but they made space for one another to learn and grow and move down their own paths. Today, Sara is a spiritual director for others and doesn’t have a specific label for herself, and it works just fine.

“There’s a whole host of ways of being in the world…”

Links

Sara’s website
https://prairiethistle.ca/

Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/prairiethistle

Recommendations

Richard Rohr

Carl Jung

Kathleen Norris

Thomas Keating

Thomas Merton

Interact

Join the Deconversion Anonymous Facebook group!

Graceful Atheist Podcast Merch!
https://www.teepublic.com/user/gracefulatheistpodcast

Support the podcast
Patreon https://www.patreon.com/gracefulatheist
Paypal: paypal.me/gracefulatheist

Deconversion
https://gracefulatheist.com/2017/12/03/deconversion-how-to/

Secular Grace
https://gracefulatheist.com/2016/10/21/secular-grace/

Attribution

“Waves” track written and produced by Makaih Beats

Transcript

NOTE: This transcript is AI produced (otter.ai) and likely has many mistakes. It is provided as rough guide to the audio conversation.

David Ames 0:11
This is the graceful atheist podcast United studios Podcast Network. Welcome, welcome. Welcome to the graceful atheist podcast. My name is David and I am trying to be a graceful atheist. Please consider rating and reviewing the podcast on the Apple podcast store, rate the podcast on Spotify, and subscribe to the podcast wherever you are listening. We have a merchandise store on T public, you can get all of your graceful atheist and secular Grace themed items there, the link will be in the show notes. If you're in the middle of doubt, deconstruction, the dark night of the soul, you do not have to do it alone. Join our private Facebook group deconversion anonymous and become a part of the community. You can find us at facebook.com/groups/deconversion Special thanks to Mike T for editing today's show. On today's show, Arline interviews this week's guest Sarah. Sarah grew up in Canada in a Mennonite community that also had a lot of evangelical influence. Her and her husband were both deeply committed Christians, her husband deconstructed and D converted first. And Sarah began to deconstruct her faith. Sarah is still a spiritual person, and does not care for labels. But what she is describing is a Christian or a spiritual humanism. Here is Arline interviewing Sarah.

Arline 1:50
Right. Welcome to the graceful atheists.

Sara 1:53
Thank you. Good to be here.

Arline 1:55
You and I have chatted, we're both in the deconversion anonymous Facebook group. You are the lovely spouse of one of our former guests. And yeah, I'm just excited I get to talk to you.

Sara 2:07
I'll take it. I'll take it.

Arline 2:10
Okay, so we usually just start tell us about the religious environment that you grew up in.

Sara 2:16
Sure. So I grew up in small town, Manitoba, Canada, and that is a cold place. But it was full of warm hearted people. For me, growing up growing up Evangelical, Mennonite, Christian, so I'm not sure who's all familiar with Mennonite people out there. But a lot of people in the States could think of Amish people for a first comparison. We still have people groups in that tradition up here with the bonnet and and the old fashioned dress, the modest dress, but mostly progressive communities. So modern communities, full of evangelical based Mennonite Christians. So that's how I grew up, was just being ushered into the faith. So I've learned the term cradle Christian. And that definitely applies to me. So I remember I remember being told that I said the center's prayer around age four. So you know, in in smack at the age of innocence, just reciting, reciting to my parents at bedtime, the sinners prayer and thus becoming a Christian. And my parents describe to me, our faith, our family history as culturally, we came from Mennonites, but our faith was more progressive. So we did attend a non denominational church in our community, which of course was full of evangelicals. So non denomination or not, that's that's what I grew up in and really embraced wholeheartedly. The faith. And so for me that looks like let's see if I can age myself. Date. give you guys a date reference in the 90s. Growing up as a teenager, a little bit of purity culture, a lot of the youth rallies, evangelical, mainstream musicians and concerts. A lot of the culture that I was involved in was all Christian so from morning to sundown, was Christian media and Christian teaching. You did not go to Christian school, we had public school, but really was not exposed to other ways of life or other faiths or other cultures. I'm really just, what's the word one tone, just a uniform tone in our in our small town at least. And I guess you could say I, I wasn't popular, growing up, but I was good. And in the Christian circles that made one feel pretty secure and the affirmation of elders and peers was something that I enjoyed and sought and was rewarded with, because of being good. And I, I was really good at being a Christian and enjoyed it. And I do, I would say, I was lucky that we did grow up, I would say more progressive. And the purity culture, stuff that that did come around indoctrinated a lot of the younger teenagers younger than me at the time. And I didn't get hit with with too much of that guilt messaging. But as a grew up into young adulthood, I, I took the opportunity, of course, and to take the next step from being a good Christian in my small town to being a good Christian in a small college, a small Christian College. So our community has Christian College, about seven minutes away from the town. And so that was my big leap forward out of high school, into the big wide, wide world, seven minutes down the gravel road, away from my house where I grew up my whole youth. And at this school, I would say I did receive, again, a more progressive Christian evangelical education. So in that way, continued to avoid some of the more the pitfalls, some of the more abusive messaging, I would say that the messaging I received was, stay on the straight and narrow and listen to your elders. And, and really, the the messaging Other than that, was, you know, that, that women were submissive to men. But that was never really something that that was something that I struggled with. And it was never rammed down our throats, maybe because nobody questioned it. So regardless of why the messaging didn't seem that traumatic for me. It did enable me to keep mostly an open mindset, I guess. So it was at this Christian College, that I would say, I continue to learn a more open minded and open hearted way of being a person of faith.

I did go on to to take a marketing degree, somewhere else and return to work at this college. And the the marketing challenge that I was presented with when I worked there was very interesting to me because the school was transitioning from I'm not sure what they would have been called beforehand, but they were embracing what was called a liberal arts, education. And so the liberal arts in our area of Canada, all people heard was the word liberal. And they thought this, this college was off the rails and that that was it. However, how I understood it then, and how I understand it now is liberal arts is just a wide range of studies. It's a broad spectrum, education, that's what they were seeking to provide. So I would contrast that with other colleges where the religious messaging is heavy handed and inescapable, and in as much as this college wasn't perfect, they did present as far as I understood it a more open way of being. So as I transitioned from attending the college to You know, ending up working there, I met my husband there. And he was, you guessed it a very good Christian. At the time, we were well matched, both of us wanting to be not just good Christians, but leaders in our community. So leading, as someone who worked at the college, was what I was fully embracing. And my husband eventually ended up working in ministry. We were volunteering at our church multiple times per week, he was volunteering and working full time with youth. And that was always interesting to me, as well as he was fully whose full time employed in ministry. And I was expected to come and help. And this was a fully unpaid understanding was that I would be there to support and help but also lead and teach teenage girls and be a mentor to them. And I didn't quest question it, I enjoyed it. I felt that there was room for me as a strong, outspoken woman to have leadership skills. It wasn't until later that I would realize that in all of that, the ability to fully use my voice, my intellect, was still completely under the the leadership of others, especially under the leadership of men. So from there, we had started a family, we had a young family, and I would say, a catalyst to our growth. My husband and I would be when we did start a family, one of the things about having children having a baby, what is the the expression, having your heart, on the outside, walking around in the world, having having your heart outside of you walking around in the world, we both experienced that intense vulnerability that comes with realizing we're not in control. We leave, pray to and believe in and trust in this big, omnipotent God. And yet, there is there suffering in the world, and there are things that can happen to your loved ones. So the problem of, of pain, the problem of suffering, the fear of not being in control, or wondering why there's a God that would allow suffering, we did have few intense health scares with our first with our first child. So that really prompted both of us this question of what kind of god is this, that we believe and we started to question a little deeper? Hey, what's up with?

The questioning, I would say lead to my husband D converting first. So the deconversion of one spouse when the other isn't ready or hasn't made the same types of growth or the same direction of growth. That's something that we confronted early on, I would say my husband found it difficult to tell me what he was going through for fear of what I would say, and just not necessarily fear, but the the intense, honest discomfort that comes with realizing your spouse and you are, are different and growing differently. And my husband at the time was studying Christian psychology and pursuing his master's in Christian counseling. A lot of the benefit of being a spouse of a student is that you you learn a little bit alongside with them, definitely not to the same extent that he was learning, receiving the training directly, but watching and watching the books that he'd bring home and hearing him talk about what he was learning did benefit me as well. And, and I knew he was questioning and and I did question. A lot of the things I was told from the Bible as well, when one of the areas that we immediately agreed on was the area of the Bible as a book, a literature book, and for context, how it was put together and who wrote it and when and why and learning about the different types of literature contained within this book. Being open to the Bible as Miss being open to portions of the Bible as poetry, and art. We eventually realize that the Bible being the be all and end all, it, it didn't strike us the same way as it used to, using the Bible as a rule book. Using the Bible as law at more than just as a place to find messaging about values, just using it as the foundation for everything for all sources of thought, was not something that we could both condone. I was, I would say, I was very at peace. With that, as you could probably tell. Living in the headspace and questioning and learning and embracing my intellect is not something that I would say that I naturally gravitate toward. That's not me. I, I was always the one who would say I have the gift of faith. I don't question I just believe I, I just know. And even as we were growing and changing, it didn't seem very unrestful to me, because we were still good Christians. We were still going to church, we were still leading in the community. And we also experienced some freedom in what my husband was doing in his ministry, where we were learning about evangelicalism as relational. Instead of, we called it we call it relational instead of vacuum cleaner salesman, evangelicalism. So instead of saying, you know, upfront, hey, we're here were Christian, you should be to Why aren't you one? Here's how you can be one Why aren't you and yet very heavy handed salesmanship. We embrace relationship. First, I, I would describe this as an immature way of knowing that love is more important than law. And we wouldn't have had the words for it then. But we were thankfully supported to continue to do ministry. Without being heavy handed. Or I would use the word abusive now we we were able to be loving in as much as providing religious propaganda in central rural, small town Manitoba can be loving. So I would say, my I knew my husband had become atheists before he did. I remember that conversation on our, on our hosts, we're both are on our coach. We're both night owls. We were staying up way too late having one of our discussions like we do. And maybe I wasn't being the most loving at the time. But, but I remember telling him after he he'd told me for a few years, he was agnostic Christian, which then I had to look that up and make sure that I knew what that meant. And at the time, I could say, okay, yeah, I understand agnosticism, and being able to say that I hold a view of God or what is out there and I don't know for sure. And there are there are more learned and technical definitions than that. The way I understood it very simply was this is what I think I believe, but I may be wrong and I hold that opinion loosely.

So for him to tell me for years, he was agnostic, Christian, I was fine with. And I looked at him one night and I said, you're not you're not agnostic, Christian, you're agnostic atheist. And that that term that's a laden term. So for anyone, and I think I know your audience pretty well, there's probably a lot of people out there who for a long time, that term atheist was so laden with guilt and fear and condemnation. And it was probably the worst thing that could happen to someone was who they've turned into an atheist. And so for me at the time, even though our, our growth as people our development as people was heading in that direction, it definitely scared me. And I think more so than the label was just the implication for our partnership. And the questions that that would raise, how would we raise our kids? How would we celebrate the holidays, the really practical ins and outs of having partnership between two people where their faiths are so different. And for the next year or two after that, I would say my growth continued. But I wouldn't say necessarily the same direction. And now, this is probably where it might get interesting. Because as much as I could look at what I believed and and see that the term agnostic fit with me as well agnostic Christian, I couldn't quite embrace the term atheist. And, and so that's kind of where we parked for a long time. As we both continued to grow, my husband getting more and more comfortable with the term agnostic atheist, eventually found his way to community Bihu humanist Canada, the community of humans Canada, and, and so for him to announce to me that he had become a humanist. That was the next step in in his growth and I still felt I still felt a little left behind, I still felt a little bit like, that wasn't the right direction for me. I did look into humanism for a while and try it on the label of Christian humanist. And I wrote a few essays, developing the idea and, and show making a case for Christian humanism, which I believe there is a case for that type of belief. But along along the way, of my, my studying on my own, not professionally, just casually, I'm pursuing my own topics and books that that kind of served me on my growth path. I realized that I didn't like any of this anymore. Any of these labels. I didn't like the Christian label. I didn't fit the atheist label. I didn't fit the humanist label. I didn't fit the deist label, see theist label. I every label that that someone suggested to me or put on me, I just there was always something that didn't quite fit about it, and portions of it would fit and others wouldn't. And I struggled with feeling about, you know, where did that leave me? What type of community did that leave me with? And then COVID Hit COVID I feel like that's every single story these days or every single interview. There's the point in their history and then COVID. So, the loss of community was happening for me before COVID And the first year of COVID in our small town, cemented my husband and I are shared need to be out to be out of the church. or there was not really a path forward for us that continued to see us. In the church, I was working in communications at the time, I was actually a small town journalist, small town journalism at the beginning of COVID, when all of our governments were doing what they were doing and doing what they could, what they thought they needed to do during the beginning of COVID. And, and I was also on the communications team for our church, and realize that I needed distance from the church, and COVID eventually became a gift. The, the quarantining the bubbling, the distance from the community became a space to breathe. And I know it's cliche. But there's people who would say, there's more people now that would say, they're not a Christian, they're still a Jesus follower. And that's where I saw myself, Jesus follower for a while. And eventually, I wouldn't say that that part has necessarily fallen off. But I started to find other ways of finding information and finding community and finding teaching, outside of Christianity outside of the Christology that I had grown up with. That just made sense. And once you find things that just make sense, you can't go back.

What I deconstructed from is easier to define evangelical Christianity is what I deconstructed from. And I would definitely say D converted from. And we haven't found our way back to a church, there's no plans in the future to return to a church. That's not a healthy environment. For us. It's not where we find that there's life giving activity for us. And what I've reconstructed to is harder to define. So I think I'll leave it there, as far as giving you a history of where I've come from and where I where I'm at. So

Arline 28:05
I have a few questions. Yes. You said there were. There were other ways that you found. I'm not sure the words that you use, but like other ways of thinking about things that you found, what do you have any examples of some of the the no longer Christian things that you were finding that were helpful to you?

Sara 28:27
Yes, there were some big ones that ended up being my non negotiables. One of the first ones that I had to turn away from was the term would be complementarianism. The idea that the genders the idea, first of all, that there's two genders, and that one is subordinate to the other. That became a no fly zone for me in a no go zone. It just did not add up. And the way I rebuilt from that was finding, first of all, a healthy dose of feminist theology. Once I immersed myself in feminist theology, and knew that it wasn't wrong, it was biblically supported. And more than that, it was holistically healthy for women to be seen as equals and operate in the world as equals. I could not subscribe to a church or faith tradition that views women as less than men. So I've constructed the, the author that that helped me the most, I would say would be Rosemary Radford rather. And she's a medical All Episcopalian, Catholic, whatever labels can we give to her? Eco eco theologian, feminist theologian. She passed away just a few years ago, after a lengthy career in writing and pursuing theology and teaching. And of course, it can't remember the the Catholic school she was at. Come on brain. But she she her writing very technically heavy, theologically textbook key. It gripped me and provided for me something to set my back against, so that I didn't need to just say I don't think that it's correct that women are subordinate to men. Now I have some theology that made sense to me now, now that I've come to where I am. I wish I could say I've picked up a lot more non religious feminism. There's no authors for me to name drop there. And that's on my list of things to continue pursuing.

The idea of health? No, that was. So the idea of health as an eternal place of torment became something I could no longer believing, and turning toward more progressive ideas of universal universalism became a way for me to stay as a Christian. And as I continue to grow, the idea that everyone is loved. It's an idea that transcends religion, it transcends Christianity. And the Universalist theology made sense to me. But just a mindset of love and acceptance. You don't need a textbook to flesh that idea out. So the idea that we're all connected and all okay, and loved. That was something that kept me growing. And interestingly enough, I would say the idea of time. And now now's where, you know, I don't put my foot in my mouth over this issue. But I started to find issues representative in science, physics, the study of matter and energy became extremely fascinating to me. And realizing that a, a spiritual being attached to a concept of time that we as humans could possibly begin to understand was, it became evident to me that in my tradition of Christian evangelicalism, the concept of linear time had to be upheld in order for the concept of morality and goodness and final judgment. To make those concepts possible, you had to hold up this linear version of time. And I didn't like that it didn't sit well with me.

Arline 34:09
Interesting. I thought of that. But yeah, that makes sense. There has to be an end. And then a hell. Yeah, well, yeah.

Sara 34:17
So to realize that our universe is growing and expanding, and that the Christian God doesn't fit with science. That became something that I needed to dig into my husband being the more intellectual one and challenged me in that regard. A lot. And it became kind of fun because we would often read articles or or read books. He had read the whole thing, I would just read portions of it. But who did we enjoy Carl Sagan? Neil deGrasse Tyson. There's more I try to remember who else we've read. And I'm not so good with names all the time. At Anyway, the game that we would play between the two of us was that he would read article based on physics and say, See, there is no God. And I would read the same article, and I would say, See, God is so much bigger than how we understood.

Arline 35:35
That's amazing. I love that chocolate have that conversation. And it's fascinating to watch. Two people read the same thing. And yes, the interpretation, the takeaway, the inferences are different. Wow. Yeah. Okay. So when you say earlier, you said, like, we're all we're all okay. And we're loved. I don't I don't even know how to ask this question like, is it a by whom? Or is it just like an inherent worthiness? Or is there a god? Little G quotation marks? Or is it still like up in the air because you don't have to have integers and all that good stuff.

Sara 36:15
For me, it's still up in the air I like for someone who I would describe myself and others, of course, would would agree with me, and call me an all or nothing person for someone who was an all or nothing person. Faith for me has not become an all or nothing. Zone. And I guess what I'm trying to say is, I still use the term God. But what I'm talking about what I believe in, is not what Christians the way I understand them, I would say 99.99% of the Christians I grew up with, they would not understand if I just use the word God. Rosemary Radford brother suggests, for the sake of egalitarianism, of course, she suggests using on paper anyway, it doesn't translate very well to, to spoken word, but she recommends using the term Gods slash depths. So capital God slash d s, s, to represent both genders of God.

Arline 37:34
Okay, got it. Okay, I

Sara 37:36
see it. Yeah, I enjoy that. But also, I don't view God as both male and female. And I don't view God as a God is gender less. That is another way of looking at God, I don't, that doesn't resonate with me, I finally landed on God being gender full. So as the spectrum of gender becomes something that science and the Western society as we understand, it begins to wrap their heads around, realizing that if one believes in God, I believe God is gender full. And I started creating a document for myself as a writer, as a researcher, I've started creating a document for myself to collect names for God, I'm not happy with any of them. And there are some that I like more than others. So in when you dig into the different traditions, surrounding God, capital God is, is what Christians are comfortable with. Jewish tradition, not writing the name of God and seeing the name of God as being holy, and not even capturable. In in a written form that intrigues me terms like the, the great mystery, the divine, the source of all being the ground of all being the most ancient parents. There's some poetical language and some scientific language for God that really resonates with me. And I think that's indicative of, you know, again, not needing to be fully in or fully out. So The way I see God is that source of love, that connection, the the embodiment of the whole way of approaching and enacting and being part of love. To me, that's God.

Arline 40:20
I have a hard time separating the word God from the stuff that I was taught, I have enjoyed or liked to see, when I was on my way out and didn't know I was on my way out. But I was just reading different books, I was reading Anne Lamott squirt, like her more explicitly Christian stuff. And she always talked about God, and called her. And she. And that was fun for me, that just little experience of the feminine pronouns for what I had always thought of as masculine God. And again, I didn't know I was on my way out. But that was, that was a nice little change. Eventually, it shifted. And I liked the idea of goddesses until I read about a bunch of the goddesses and I like, they're all heifers, I don't like any of them. Like, they're all just terrible. And for me, I don't believe in gods and goddesses and things like that. And at the same time, I like the idea of just some kind of whatever the reason is that love seems to be so important for humans, for primates for animals, to to exist well, for our species to keep going like this. It does as well, when we cooperate and are kind and loving, and all these kinds of things. So I love that I'm like, prepare for that.

You in Your un hubs. He's his ADSL. And you are your unlabeled, wonderful self. How did how are the conversations these days? Do you guys just let one another? Do whatever works for you? Is there any conflict? How did you decide about raising kids and holidays? And all those things you mentioned earlier? Once you guys just are have to figure that out? Or are you still figuring it out?

Sara 42:19
Yeah, we're still figuring it out. There's, there's no right or wrong way to do this. So we do feel a lot of freedom. In that regard. A lot of our conflict has dissipated, I think the confusion or fear about what each other believes, or why or how it's going to impact us a lot of that has just dissipated with with time when you're in it, it's scary. And when you've been in it a long time, it's not scary anymore. And we, for how strong willed both of us are, we did find a way to let each other be ourselves and let each other grow, how we would grow. And for me that ended up looking like after experiencing the loss of community, I didn't want to stop growing, I didn't want to stop trying to find people who were like minded. One of the authors that I had picked up earlier in my deconstruction was Kathleen Norris. And for someone coming out of an evangelical tradition, just to be exposed to a writer, for me who represented feminism and an open minded, open hearted way of being but someone who had been an atheist and came back into the church and why was very interesting to me. How she seemed to retain an intellectual integrity and open her heart up to what ways what ways she could grow as a human. And so her book. The cloister walk was one of the first ones that I read, and in her frustration with the church community that she was just kind of finding her way back into. Those were the same frustrations that I had found were leading me out of the church, and I thought both trajectories were AOK Kay. And that that felt good. That amount of acceptance, felt good frustration, vocalized healthily can lead to making healthy steps and choices, away from away from abusive situations away from dogmatic theology away from confinement into more open minded ways of experiencing the world. And from there, she helped introduce me to the Benedictine way of living, which to me was a delightful way of incorporating spirituality. Without the heavy handedness of what I'd experienced in evangelicalism, which is so funny because you think about monks, living in community with rigid rules and expectations. And how could that be a place of more freedom than the modern church, and without judgment, I just say that that's, that's a mirror for the Western Church to be looking at themselves through, that's for sure. When a life of a status ism, become becomes the, the way of freedom. It just ended up fascinating me what I ended up doing to continue to pursue studies and growth while my husband was finishing, not a counseling, Master's in Counseling in a Christian school, he was finishing a Master's of Science in, in a secular university. While he was finishing that I ended up looking into taking courses and studies in what I would eventually know as spiritual direction. So through the Benedictine community, close to where I live, they offered a two year certificate in spiritual direction. But what interested me most what fascinated me about what they offered was the open handed way of offering what they knew with a take it or leave it, gentle kind of way of offering spiritual study. So the program ended up being something that I couldn't take until COVID hit and it could be fully operational online, and suddenly became something that fit into our lifestyle. And what I was able to make work was my schedule. And the the program itself being open to anyone from any faith from any spiritual tradition became something that was very important to me. So I didn't want more Christian education. I wanted spiritual education. I wanted to know if I'm not a Christian, what else is there? What can I still be? And for me, that program really helped to answer a lot of those questions. But more importantly, it showed me which questions served me and which questions didn't. Questions that resulted in closed thinking or closed loop answers. Let's just say the Benedictines are not great at those questions. They're good at the kind of questions that leave you asking more questions.

Arline 49:37
And

Sara 49:39
to me, yeah, to me that represented the freedom to arrive where you're going to arrive in your spiritual journey, whether that is to remain a Christian or not. And whether that's to be a humanist or not, or an eight atheist as long as the way of being in the world is loving and open. That seemed to be okay. And, and I liked that. Yeah,

Arline 50:17
like love and kindness and the things that are mostly universal. I don't know if they are fully universal, but that most society see as very important and very necessary yet again for us to thrive. They're not inherently Christian, they're not owned by Christianity like, and even within Christianity. There's so many different versions of it, we're exposed to this one. Very Evan Jellicle. White, I would say North American in the nine different countries, North American version of Christianity, Western, I guess. And like you were talking about the Benedictines and then there are there's Orthodox churches, and I mean, just Christianity looks very different in different places, and spirituality looks different. And I love that you've been able to figure out like, what feels best and is right for you. And knowing that we have that kind of freedom and relief, the more constricting Hi, what's the word? Hi something religions, high demand religion?

Is there anything I should have asked, we have a few more minutes or anything I should have asked but that you want to talk about.

Sara 51:47
Just trying to think if there's any more pieces of the puzzle that would lend any clarity. If if I would just name another author that helped me on my journey. Anyone looking for further reading. If there if, if any of your listeners are, are still deconstructing still in the process of D converting, because as I mentioned, I'm, I'm not a black and white thinker anymore. It's not a switch that gets flipped. I'm a Christian, and then flip the switch. Now I'm not the spectrum of faith is wide. And Thomas Keating, helped me on my way, as far as presenting an open minded theology that insisted that science be involved, and included and important in a holistic way of being in a way of being a spiritual human. There's no conflict with looking at the way the world is made and coming up with new ways to think about it and new language to talk about it. Thomas Merton, another Thomas, from from Thomas Merton's righteous anger, in the 60s, and his writing. And just one of his final lectures, admonishing people, encouraging people exhorting people to be open to language to learning about, you know, why do we say the things that we do about God? And why is it written that way? And where did that come from? And hey, doesn't this tradition in Christian meditation mirror that in Eastern religions and, and from there, I talked myself into some Buddhist studies for a while, and, and from from, you know, realizing the practices of Buddhism, the commitment to lessening the suffering of others, and how that's not in conflict with, with Christianity with, with how I want to live, and realizing that truth is truth. I know that's a loaded word these days, that everyone claiming to have the capital are real, capital T truth. And realizing that, even though it's subjective, you'll know it and you'll know with whom you share your definition of God, you'll know with whom you share your definition of love, you'll know with whom you share your diff admission of truth if you hold that openly and yeah,

Arline 55:08
leave it there. Yes, that's a lovely place to end. Sarah Thank you so much for being on the podcast I would ask for recommendations for girl you name drop. So many fantastic authors and books that people can find who are still, who still Christians like Thomas Merton and Kathleen Norris, Richard Richard Rohr.

Sara 55:31
Richard roars in there, anyone with a psychotherapy bent or psychology bent? Carl Jung Jung, in fact, psychology has been really formative for me as well. And yeah, just realizing that there's a whole host of authors, there's a whole host of ways of being in the world that aren't Christian, as in it, you know, being pegged being in the box it and it's okay, and it's scary at first. But once you're out there, it's wide, open and wonderful.

Arline 56:11
How can people find you online? If you're doing the spiritual direction? Is there a way people can find you?

Sara 56:17
Yeah, I do spiritual direction. I also just write my own reflections on life and the world and deconstruction. So I have a website called the prairie thistle, tours that are really hard to spell it. I don't know why I picked them, but just spell check, and you'll find it WWW dot prairie fissile.ca.ca. Because I'm in Canada. So yeah, okay.

Arline 56:41
Well, we'll put we'll put all the links in the show notes so people can find it. And thank you again, for being on the podcast here. This is lovely. Thank you, Arline.

My final thoughts on the episode. So when I've already talked to someone and gotten to know them, I get really excited when I get to speak with them on the podcast, because I just know they're lovely and wonderful. And I get excited. And Sarah was no exception. It was such a great conversation. She's so kind and gentle spoken and I just, I could listen to her forever. Go, you need to narrate some books. There you go. There's your future job. My final thoughts on the episode. There are so many, I don't know to call them universal truths, because I'm sure there are places where this things are not absolutely true. But like, it seems for humans to survive as a species and for us to survive interstitially with other animals and plants, fungi, the whole earth, like love, kindness, cooperation, empathy, like there's so many things that seem to be integral for us. No matter where we live, like Christianity does not have a hold on humility, kindness, gentleness, whatever the fruit of the Spirit, whatever they were, these are just good things to have. And she kept using the word openness, like if we can be open to things, and I can't cite the science, but I've heard on plenty of podcasts. 10%, happier podcast talks about a lot. And I don't know where else. But when we stay open to things, and we're not judgmental about things and we're not closed to whether or not we could be wrong. It's just good for us, our mental health is better. Our nervous system is less activated. When we stay open to things when we are willing to be wrong when we're willing to give people the benefit of the doubt when we're willing to hear new information and not be closed off to it. Like it's just it's just good for us. And so staying open, being loving, not at the expense of our boundaries and our own personal well being but loving others, because Christianity will teach you to love others, and it'll just burn you out. And that is not that's not good. Last thing, she also talked about having children and the problem of pain and suffering. Like when she when they had children, she and her husband realized like, she didn't say this explicitly, but I've heard it from a few different places. And this was true when my husband D converted. It's like, we should not feel like we are better parents to our children because we treat them better than God treats his kids. That doesn't seem like we should be more moral, or ethical, more kind and loving than God is. And, yeah, there's so much suffering in the world, trying to square up the god we're taught is in the Bible with what we actually see in the world and what we actually see in the Bible. That takes a lot of gymnastics, lot of mental gymnastics, and it's just not worth it. It's not worth it at all. Sara, thank you again for being on the podcast. It was wonderful and I really enjoyed it. And

David Ames 1:00:03
the secular Grace Thought of the Week is humanism. This podcast has from day one been about humanism. And what that means to me is caring for people. I believe in people. With hindsight, I recognize that I had been a religious humanist and after deconversion it was a natural move to being a secular humanist. But really, my core values of caring for people did not change. Maybe my reasons did, but it did not change. I legitimately do not care if people are spiritual and not religious, or Christian or Muslim or Jewish, if they care about people, if they recognize that relationship with other human beings is the most important thing in the universe. Until next time, my name is David, and I am trying to be the graceful atheist. Join me and be graceful human being. The beat is called waves by MCI beats. Do you want to get in touch with me to be a guest on the show? Email me at graceful atheist@gmail.com for blog posts, quotes, recommendations and full episode transcripts head over to graceful atheists.com. This graceful atheist podcast, a part of the atheist United studios Podcast Network

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Beth: Deconstruction from the Moral Majority

Deconstruction, Dones, End Times, ExVangelical, Podcast, Politics, Spiritual But Not Religious

This week’s guest is Beth. Beth grew up in a fundamentalist Christian home that revered James Dobson, Jerry Falwell and all those who created the “Moral Majority.” Her father was a pastor whose sermons centered on the End Times and protecting their families from the “shifting culture,” (read: all the movements happening in the 60’s and 70’s).

As a teen, she lived a double life, keeping plenty of secrets from her parents. However, as a young adult, followed all the rules with the expectation that the “umbrella of God’s protection” would take care of her. It didn’t.

It took decades of trying to do what was “right” and watching the promises of the Church come to naught before she finally took the leap out of Christianity. She now identifies as SBNR—spiritual but not religious. Beth is now able to trust her own judgment and make decisions that are best for her. No “umbrella of protection” needed.

Recommendations

Podcasts

Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle

Indoctrination

Trust Me

A Little Bit Culty

Straight White American Jesus

Books

Untamed by Glennon Doyle

Leaving the Fold by Marlene Winnell

Any book by Anne Lamott

Shameless by Nadia Bolz Weber

You are Your Own by Jamie Lee Finch

Interact

Join the Deconversion Anonymous Facebook group!

Graceful Atheist Podcast Merch!
https://www.teepublic.com/user/gracefulatheistpodcast

Support the podcast
Patreon https://www.patreon.com/gracefulatheist
Paypal: paypal.me/gracefulatheist

Deconversion
https://gracefulatheist.com/2017/12/03/deconversion-how-to/

Secular Grace
https://gracefulatheist.com/2016/10/21/secular-grace/

Attribution

“Waves” track written and produced by Makaih Beats

Transcript

NOTE: This transcript is AI produced (otter.ai) and likely has many mistakes. It is provided as rough guide to the audio conversation.

David Ames 0:11
This is the graceful atheist podcast United studios Podcast Network. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome to the graceful atheist podcast. My name is David and I are trying to be the graceful atheist. Please consider reading and reviewing the podcast on the Apple podcast store, rate the podcast on Spotify, and subscribe to the podcast wherever you are listening. We have our merchandise store on T public where you can get your graceful atheist and secular Grace themed items. The link will be in the show notes. If you're in the middle of doubt, deconstruction, the dark night of the soul, you do not have to do it alone. Join our private Facebook group deconversion anonymous and become a part of the community. You can find us at facebook.com/groups/deconversion. Special thanks to Mike T for editing today's show. On today's show, or lean interviews, today's guest Beth Beth grew up during the time of the Moral Majority. She was a PK. She went through a quote unquote rebellious period during her youth, but came back to the church to try to do everything right. It wasn't until decades later that she was able to deconstruct her faith and experience the freedom on the other side. Here is our Lean interviewing Beth.

Unknown Speaker 1:43
Beth, welcome to the graceful atheist podcast.

Beth 1:46
Thank you very much. I'm really happy to be here. Yes,

Arline 1:49
I'm excited to hear your story. You and I've chatted a little bit through the deconversion anonymous Facebook group. And yeah, I'm glad to get to hear your whole story. So we usually begin, just tell us about the religious environment that you grew up in. Okay,

Beth 2:05
well, I was born into a pastor's home and independent fundamental Baptist pastor's home. Oh, wow. And so it's all I ever really knew. And I'm the third of four children. I'm very extroverted came to the planet very curious, asking lots and lots of questions. I was born in a small town in central Florida. But in 1959, my dad took a pastoral calling to an Independent Baptist Church in the Atlanta area. Okay, so he was the pastor of that church, if you can believe it in this day and age, for 44 years. Wow. It relocated three different times in the Atlanta area. But it was always in that area. So the landscape of my childhood was just centered on the church, and our version of Christianity. My dad networked with other Independent Baptist pastors in the Atlanta area in the 1960s. Most of those people were Bob Jones University graduates. And quite frankly, anyone who had any connection to BJ you was just considered auto approved. That was the that was just the gold standard for the fundamental Baptists at that time. And so he basically took his cues on the way we should all be living our lives on the sermons he preached from Bob Jones University from Jerry Falwell, who kind of came to prominence in the 70s. And you know, he eventually started the Moral Majority. And then James Dobson came out with his, you know, parenting books, strong willed child, which I was considered to be, and I'm sure my parents were not wrong about that. Just to be honest, but in his preaching, the sermons were a lot about protecting your families from the shifting culture, and you know, kind of railing about things in politics. And there were a lot of sermons on Hell, the evils of rock and roll communism and the Red Scare, teaching about in times, you know, lots of scary sermons from the book of Revelation. And we were taught that the second coming of Christ would be at any moment. So the most important thing that you could do was to speak to every single person you encountered whether you they were a total stranger or not, and say to them, if you died tonight, do you know if you would go to heaven? And if not, I'll tell you how you can be sure if that and that was the way people in my church were taught to be. And even though I was extroverted and loved people, I always felt embarrassed to do that it felt really intrusive to me. It was difficult for me to get on board with that. And, you know, I questioned everything. And it really was not appreciated. I was in public schools up through the seventh grade before our parents started putting us in private Christian schools. So in our home, and in our church, you know, there were very strict rules around our behavior, the way we could talk, that way we could dress the media we could consume, and we were never really taught any type of boundaries, or self awareness, other than the fact that be aware, you're very simple. That, you know, yeah, that that's what the self awareness was, was all I'm focused on. So I was saved, and baptized by the age of five. So I guess I had a really long list of sins by that. I

Arline 6:04
know, right? Like little children have no concept of Oh, my heavens.

Beth 6:09
Yeah. Yeah, you know, like talking back to your mothering, and having to get a spanking, those were the deep sins from those times. And that Independent Baptist church movement was really growing in the southeast at the time. And that was also during the rise of the civil rights movement, the women's movement, the anti war movements. And so because of all those things, being in the news, we did as a church and a family, a lot of othering of people who just weren't like us. And the whole tone of that really lacked compassion, and you know, just about for anyone who was different than us. And for me, I was just fascinated by other people who weren't like us. You know, so like, occasionally in elementary school, if that got to go to a friend's home, or go to a sleepover or something like that, with a family that wasn't like ours, I was just fascinated, and love to see that, oh, they don't go to church. But wow, they're the nicest sweetest people. And that was just very curious to me. I thought that's very, very interesting. And then when in when I got into the 70s, and became a teenager, all of those strict rules were harder and harder to deal with.

Beth 7:28
Yes, I imagine you were there, my dad was so big on trying to keep us from watching the wrong things on TV, that back then when my mother would go get the weekly groceries, she would buy that little TV Guide magazine. And it would tell you a little synopsis of all the shows that are going to be on the major networks for the next week. And she would hand it to him when she got home from the grocery store. He would take out a ballpoint pen, sit down, flip through it, read every synopsis and write the word no, very large. The process. And that's how we knew when we turned on the TV and we picked up the TV Guide. What we could and mostly could not watch.

Arline 8:14
I was gonna say he picks no instead of like, here are the things you can watch. It's here the lot. Yeah,

Beth 8:21
exactly. Yeah, yeah, it was definitely all about that. That's for sure. And also to there was this pressure that because we weren't a preacher's children, then we were being watched by everyone in the church. And you know, when you're an adolescent, that is just the worst. Feeling, you know, it's you must be a good testimony. You know, you can't embarrass your dad, you can't embarrass the church.

So we're along the way. And they're Bill Gothard. You know, he came to the fore, and his first conferences in those early 70s. It wasn't called IBLP. Yet, it was called the Institute in basic youth conflicts. That's what it started as, uh huh. And he came to Atlanta, and he did these big conferences, I think down at the Civic Center, if I recall correctly, so there were lots and lots of conservative churches in the area that came to hear him speak and I was made to go to two of those conferences as a teenager. And, and the the main thing I remember was all that emphasis on the authority structure of the umbrella protection. Yes, yeah, that's covered in shiny happy people on Amazon Prime about the IBLP called, so everything about that was authoritarian. It was misogynistic and It just reiterated, like the conditioning I had from birth that as a female, because I was female, it was just my place to submit and, and stay in my place. And then I would be safe and all would be well in my world. So I was never prepared for anything else. As as a female, my sister and I were not taught how to manage finances. We were not taught to be ambitious about anything, you know, hopes and dreams, because that was already laid out for us in the Bible as to what our place was going to be. We were told that if we did go to college, the only purpose would be to find a husband and you didn't even have to worry about graduating. It's just all about finding someone to marry. Because it's that person's job to take care of you. Yes. You know that you don't really need your own agency. That that's that's just a bridge too far. Oh, wow. Yeah. So basically, I did what a lot of teenagers do, and oppressive situations, I just lived a double life. You know, I sang in the choir on Sundays and top children's church, but I was sneaking out of my parents house in the middle of the night to be with my friends. I was looking for all kinds of ways to get around the rules. I basically took the list of things they told me I could not do and I just made it my to do list. Yeah, and I basically checked off every box before I was 18. All right, there you go. Hey, they they put it on a list?

Arline 11:32
Yeah. And that's the thing. That's the whole thing with like, the forbidden fruit when you literally say here, here is a church tree that I'm going to sit in the middle of a garden and then tell you not to eat that tree. That's like parenting 101. You don't? You don't do that. Yeah, that's right.

Beth 11:47
That's right. So as a result of that, when I was 17, and in between my junior and senior years of high school, I got kicked out of my Christian high school. Oh, wow. I remember along with, along with, with two boys that I had actually run away with to Colorado one summer. Oh, wow. Yeah. While my parents were ironically, at a youth ministry, preaching to teenagers. Oh, wow. Yes. Yes. And yes, it did get their attention. I imagine it did. Yeah. And when when we were found, and I was retrieved, you know, wasn't 18 yet. And because I, I messed up my senior year of high school, I basically was told that, you know, they had to watch me all the time. I had to finish my senior year of high school through back then, you know, there was no online thing. So you had to do that through like, a through the snail mail, correspondence school. Take your classes. So I did that. So I finished my senior year in three months in the fall of 1973. So my parents told me that because I was going to graduate by Christmas time that I had to go to a Christian college in January of 74. And they first said, our first choice for you is Bob Jones. And I busted out laughing and said, I won't last three days. And, and they and they knew it. They knew that. And then my dad found out about this very small, independent Bible believing College in Florida, that a pastor friend of his was on the board of and he asked me if I would be willing to go there. And I said, Yes, because I was just in anywhere but here mode. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what I did. And honestly, it was just so good to be away from all of that drama and scandal that I had caused. And, and and so, you know, I really did enjoy my time in college. I really did. Yeah, yeah, I did enjoy that. I did actually graduate. But I also did meet my first husband there. And yeah, he he kind of like you. He didn't grow up as a Christian. But he did come to faith when he was in college living overseas, and so that's why he came to a Christian college.

So we ended up getting married and starting her family. You know, we had three children born very close together in the early 80s. So they were super busy years and my husband was actually working at our alma mater at that Christian college while he was getting advanced degrees, a masters and a PhD and And, and because I was running a household and have three little kids, I just did part time jobs as I could. And I shuffled them around and ran the home, and we were very active in the church, and you know, how you want your kids in the program since that, so that becomes your social life, you know, becomes your whole life. And, and so we did that, where he worked, they did not pay well at all. So we, we really struggled financially, and it was just a constant source of stress. And, you know, I was always praying, you know, and doubling down on all of that, you know, that, Oh, I knew God would take care of us all of that, but it was just so hard. And as he added to his education, you know, you should make more money based on that. Right. And it just was not happening to the level that it would have, you know, outside of it being a small ministry. And, you know, as our children get a little older, you know, our, in our marriage, we started having conflicts over our parenting styles. And in his work environment, at that Christian College, which it no longer exists, the school went out of business several years ago. The leadership had changed over. And a couple of I call them Bo Joe's Bob Jones students. Were running it. And yeah, there was some, yeah, it just the way that they work, they were just harsh. They were harsh. And, and they didn't seem to care that much about how little all these people with young families were getting paid. And but that was somehow supposed to be spiritual, because this was God's work, and all your rewards will be in another life. There

Arline 16:49
you go. They don't have to tell you a whole lot, because this isn't what this is about. This is about serving the kingdom. And yeah, yep.

Beth 16:57
Yep, that's exactly what it was like. And so you know, I just kept thinking, well, we're doing this for God. And you know, so it's almost like a magical thinking is going on. After a while in your brain. You know, that you think that prayer, and just, oh, maybe I just need to go to another Bible study. read another book. Yeah.

Arline 17:15
All of that. I mean, what are their options? They don't give you any other options. It's just getting the word pray, being community, getting the word pray and being community. There's they don't give you anything else. Fasting? Sometimes. Yeah.

Beth 17:28
Yeah. I mean, that's just the way it was. And then when the early 2000s, rolled around, he left his job there. And he got a very well deserved position in a secular college. And I was so glad to see that. And with our kids who were now all living away at college, I thought we might be able to reset our relationship, you know, just have a different time. But that was not going to be, which was such a shock to me. Oh, no. And I was absolutely stunned, you know, by the fact that he told me that he just didn't want to be married anymore. And I'm sorry, you know, at a time when you know, and so it was just really shocking. And, you know, the fight flight, freeze fawn reactions to trauma. I'm a freezer. Yeah. And I just stand when it comes to trauma. And yeah, I was just stunned because I didn't know how I was going to live my life. Because, you know, I thought there was this story that I can see the end of Yep. Of how things were going to go. Now, he did agree to go with me to a Christian therapist. Honestly, I think that therapists let it let us go to therapy too long. Like, I think he probably could tell in the first few sessions that there was no way we were staying together. Yeah. But, but part of it too, was me digging in. I just would not accept the D word. You know, I just It wouldn't go inside my brain. And there was in the Christian circles we were in that was a huge shame to go through a divorce, man. That was considered a big deal. So anyway, unanswered prayers again, right. So these were the cognitive dissonances. Right, that were happening along the way. And, and probably the biggest thing about me for the divorce at the time, because of the circles we were in, I just felt like a failure. And I felt like a cliche, you know, the midlife crisis happened. Ah, I say, yeah, right. Right. Cuz I was around 48. At that time, I should say we were

we did divorce. And I found myself on my own was something I'd never thought would happen to me. And, you know, I was just grieving I was facing You know, oh, it's up to me what I do next? Oh, wait a minute, God, God, I'm sure God's gonna be in there with me. And we're gonna do this together, you know. And so, I stayed in church, you know, I mean, I had doubts about all of this, but it was just all inside of me, you know, that I was holding inside. And we had been a really visible family in our church, there was a church of about 1500 people. And I thought I had 1500 friends, you know. But basically, what I found out was that I have maybe five left from that church. It was so weird to come to that realization about that. Yeah, that if everything's going great. Yes, you're, you're, you're in the in crowd. Right? That is definitely the way it felt to me. So I started looking for another church. And I found this little Presbyterian Church USA, in our town. And I slipped in there one Sunday on the back row. And the the service was, it was a progressive Church, which I wasn't used to, but the whole service was so refreshing. And I thought to myself, Oh, I'll never be in leadership in church again, because I've got the big D up on the shoulder, you know. But as I kept going and meeting people, I found out that the current interim pastor had been divorced. And I'm like, say what? Oh, wow. Yeah. Rebels? Oh, oh, oh, yeah. I mean, I was just and then women were behind the pulpit to participating. And it was such a shock to my system. And I was like, wow, this is incredible. So as that got to know people, and they found out my background, they were like, you know, you should be tapped to be an elder and the short story is they, they really kind of put me up on spiritual crutches. Really lovely people. And they did, you know, affirm my gifts and, and I decided to become an elder in the Presbyterian Church, USA. And I did that, and it just felt good to me. All of that was good to me. And, you know, nobody there saw me as damaged. You know, yeah, the way that I did the way that I had felt they were wonderful. And I wished I had stayed there. But what happened was some, some college friends of mine told me that a new church had started in the area. It was a P with a PC, a pastor. So the Presbyterian Church in America is a much more conservative. They're a break off from the PC.

Arline 22:40
Yeah, we were part of that. And we learned, because we were PCA. You had to learn how the bad PCUSA people had had gone rogue and believed all this crazy stuff. But we were the true church. And the conservative. Oh, yeah. So I'm familiar with the, a little bit of that.

Beth 22:57
Yeah. Yeah. So that's really, really, yeah, it was interesting. And I really was taken with the new young pastor of that church, I got really involved. And I actually ended up leaving my PCUSA church to go be a part of that little Turk. So that was kind of interesting. But I did meet lovely people there. It was an interesting experience. But I think it kind of held me back from broadening my horizons, because I made that decision.

Over time, you know, after I helped my youngest child who had graduated from from college to move to San Francisco to start her career, when I came home, from that trip, you know, I was just feeling very alone, you know, in spite of the fact that I was working, and I have my church friends, and you know, and then kind of a perfect storm started to form that I completely misread. So basically, what happened was an old friend from my Christian High School, contacted me and said, Oh, do you remember this mutual friend of ours from high school? Well, he's also divorced. Would you like me to connect? You know, you too. And the short story is, I said, Yes, sure. Why not? You know, so I started talking to that guy, and emailing and then talking on the phone, and then he came to see me and we started dating and our relationship moved very, very quickly. And we seemed very, very compatible. And instead of doing my due diligence about him, I really rushed into it because I'm thinking, God's answer my prayers. He's open this door, and it's my turn for happiness. And of course now I know that's just you know, all those chemicals in you that high you get from a new

Arline 24:54
love relationship in a new relationship energy. Yep, exactly.

Beth 24:58
That's exactly what it was some apart, but I kept thinking, you know, like, he seemed to be so compatible spiritually. We were praying together. We were reading Scripture together, we, because we had known each other when we were younger, we remembered each other's families, he didn't seem to be a stranger. You know, it's that kind of situation. And so I married him with, you know, after not, not a lot of time, just few months. And, like, for six years, I was with someone who actually had very serious mental health issues. And, and they presented very gradually. And so there were like, lows, you know, and then highs, and the lows, and then highs. And so I thought the highs were from my prayers, those were my answer prayers, when things when things would get better along the way. And, you know, he had a lot of things he had been hiding from me about his past. And so I would get information in a slow drip. Sometimes it was things that would come in the mail to him, or some phone call he got where he kind of had to tell me stuff. And it took a while to figure it out. But I discovered he had a he had a criminal past for domestic violence. Oh. And it was just such a shock. And I so I felt very embarrassed. I felt stupid, I felt ashamed. You know, that I gone into this marriage that I had rushed in. And then I'm thinking, oh, wait a minute, God, this was supposed to be a God thing. What's going on here? And so I did what I usually do when I feel traumatized, I kind of froze, I kind of felt paralyzed. And I just doubled down on my prayer. Like, I thought that would be a shield. That was, you know, going to protect me, you know, from it. And, you know, it ended after a very threatening encounter with him, where for my own safety, I had to sneak out and stay with some friends. But while I was did that a couple of days later, he died in our home by suicide. Oh, oh, gosh. Yeah. So you talk about wondering where God was? Yes, exactly. Yeah.

Arline 27:19
Like all all the praying and the waiting and the wandering, and then a traumatic event like that happening. And it's all the questions, you have all the questions. Yeah.

Beth 27:29
And then, of course, I stayed in freeze, because that was a whole new level. It was, it was such, it was such a shock. It was so awful to deal with, it happened in the home we shared. Thankfully, I was with friends. So I wasn't the person who actually discovered, you know, him. It was my friend who told me to go outside when he discovered him. And so it was really, really tough. And, you know, I did get to have some therapy sessions after that about grief and so forth. But I mainly just did what I usually do and just kept going, working. I'm very task oriented. You know, just trying to get my bearings again, in life after going through all of that, and just also was questioning myself like, How in the world did I get here? How to get this situation? Yeah. Yeah, it was really rough. And then I started having strange physical symptoms of a almost feeling paralyzed. I actually landed me in an ER when I got to where I currently stand. And basically, it was my body holding trauma. Yeah, unprocessed trauma. And thankfully, the emergency room I went to it didn't take that long for the doctors and nurses to figure that out. That that's what was going on with me. So, a real a real beginning of healing came for me when I stopped attending church entirely. And I realized, Sunday's Sundays are wonderful, right? I had spent literally my entire life never having just a Sunday for how I wanted to spend it. And so I just got back into my body is what I did, I rested a lot. I went to yoga, all the more I started meditating, you know, I started to then not feel as slowly because I was like, Oh, I'm here for me. Oh, I started enjoying my own company. Yes. And I realized that the relationship that I had neglected my entire life was the one with me.

Arline 29:46
Because you're taught from the time that you're a little bit, especially as a female, you need a man to take care of you and do this for you and do that for you. And, and there's no relationship with yourself. I haven't thought of it that way. Yeah, exactly, yeah. Yeah,

Beth 30:01
yeah, I'm like, I'm actually a person with her own thoughts, needs, wants all of that. And I just started feeling more alive with that realization, and realizing that I had my own inner wisdom, that I've always been intuitive. And, you know, that's why I kind of identify as spiritual because I've always gotten vibes about other people. But I wasn't that great with knowing what my own vibes were. Yeah, which was, which was kind of interesting. But I was just grateful to be alive and to be able to feel safe again. And so I just embraced the personal agency over my life, and felt so free. So I prioritize the relationship with me and I have vowed to never abandon her again. Oh, yeah. And it's, it's been amazing. And I've also had just learned how to set boundaries, because I cannot make that vow to myself if I don't set boundaries.

So I realized I had a dream I had filed way in my brain that someday I wanted to move to Northern California, and live near my daughter in her family. And so I realized, why not? Yeah, so I relocated here six and a half years ago, and I absolutely love it. I haven't, I've never looked back. I've never regretted it. I'm far away from all the rest of my, my family, who all live in the east, but, but this is a place I belong. And I think about it every day, there's so much natural beauty, I love hiking. I love walking I love. I mean, there's such diversity out here among people, people from all over the world. And it's so fun to hear people's stories and build relationships. It's just really an incredible joy. So I'm grateful for my three great kids and my grandchildren. I also have a really good relationship with my first husband. Oh, good. So I don't like to call him my ex, I actually refer to him as my husband. And, you know, he and I are really good friends. I mean, we have a lot of history, right? That goes back to our, our 20s. And we share children and grandchildren. So I'm very grateful that you know, in that sense, we are still a family. It took a lot of doing to get there in my heart, but I got there. And it's been a good thing for our whole family. And then the online communities have been great between podcasts. And like, I'm not a person who posts a lot online. But I'm more stalking on Facebook, even in our deconversion group. I do more reading, they're responding. And I love that I love that opportunity to do that. And so I would say my, my deconstruction could be described as death by 1000 cuts. You know, over time it came became very clear to me that you know, very little in life can be reduced to the binary of any kite that's good or bad, right or wrong. Instead, everything is nuanced and complex, right? Yeah, I mean, so curiosity and ambiguity and just observing, I mean, and letting things be what they are. It's a much more peaceful way to live. And so I'm much less anxious than I used to be. And just more open, and the stories of other people endlessly fascinate me, which is why I absolutely love podcasts like gap, for sure. So I get, you know, I don't like labels, but I guess I am an SB nr spiritual but not religious. Yeah, I don't attend church, although I work for one. I work for a very progressive PCUSA church support staff. And I actually love what they do in social justice, and in the communities out here. They're great, very, very inclusive in every way. It's just a joy to watch that. I have very supportive and loving relationships with some of my nieces and nephews who have D converted. And I treasure our conversations because I can have different conversations with them than they can have with other family

Arline 34:35
members. That makes sense. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Beth 34:39
And so my other my siblings are all still, you know, practicing Christianity. And so it's just not a topic any of us ever talks about with one another. Although I'm sure they all talk about me because I've always been in the one in the family who thought otherwise. So like, like when Sharon announced at the age of 60, she was moving to California, I'm sure they all rolled their eyes and said, and who else would do that? And our family? Just staying on brand. I love it. I love it. Yes. So I do want to say that I can't help realizing that over the past few years, it's become super obvious to me, that those that are bent on destroying our democracy, and forcing Christian beliefs on all people are actually a product of the past two generations of evangelicals, especially those of the fundamentalist tight. Yeah, that makes sense. And as I've seen that happening, and unfolding, you know, I didn't see that one coming. I really didn't. Because, you know, back then it seemed fringe. And now it's moved into the mainstream. And so I just thought it would say that, because it's, it's quite startling to me, that that is happening right now. And that it's related to how I was raised.

Arline 35:58
Yeah. Right. Because before the internet, yeah. You know, well, I grew up a generation below you. And it's like, I didn't grow up in the church. So I didn't see all of that. Now, I did still see that because I grew up in the south of the United States. I saw that just cultural version of, you know, patriarchy, white supremacy, all those kinds of things. Like it was just part of our culture. But yeah, seeing now, like, the House of Representatives, like just different people that are that have so much power, so much power, that a long time ago, long time ago, I would have thought, okay, these people are just crazy people that go to my parents to my cousin's church, my parents church, and now it's like, no, these are their children, or these are those same people. And they have power and money and in very, very, they can harm entire groups of people. And it's yeah, it's scary. And like you said, it's a product of those generations. Many generations. It

Beth 37:01
is. Yeah, I mean, they found out that if they played the long game, it was gonna pay off some day. And that's this is this is what's happened. It was the long them playing the long game, and hanging in there and digging in and and indoctrinating their children and the next generation indoctrinating their children.

I wanted to mention a couple of quotes that I really love. One of them is from the late David, Boeing. Religion is for people who fear hell, spirituality is for people who've already been there.

Arline 37:44
Oh, that's interesting. I like that. I have mixed emotions about the word spirituality, but I can see what he's saying. Yeah,

Beth 37:52
yeah. Yeah. I find it. I mean, that was very resonant. For me. It was something I read online, and I went, wow. And then I know that you and I both. I know you love Mary Oliver. Yes. As do I. And of course, I do love the question. What will you do with your one wild and precious life? Because this is it. This is all we get? Yeah, it's our shot. Yeah. And I believe that and so I want to make the most of it,

Arline 38:20
right. Yes. So yeah, so what does spirituality look for look like for you? Like, what does that look for? For you?

Beth 38:28
For me, it looks like loving kindness. It looks like being open and listening to others and just sitting with being holding space for people to hear their stories. I love it. Yeah, I and, you know, I mean, I I delved a little bit. I mean, I'm, I'm a little hippie dippie. You know, yeah, she's got white sage, she burned some times and crystals that I just love looking at and holding in my hand. Yeah, I don't really think they have powers, but they are of the earth and we are of the earth. So

Arline 39:05
who knows, it's all connected. We're all connected in some kind of, it doesn't have to be supernatural way. But like, I don't know how to, I don't know, science well enough to articulate things like that. But it's like, if, if bad things happen to the insects, us way up here thinking we're above all the rest of the animals will be affected. Like if stuff happens to the soil and stuff happen. I mean, we're just, we're so much more connected than we realize. And you have scientists who make it sound very intellectual. And that's awesome. Please be intellectual. And then you have people that that are called, like, woowoo. But it's like, I don't want to say they're saying the same things. Because you're not saying the same things. And at the same time, we're still all interconnected. And like, I don't know, I don't know. I can't articulate it very well. But, but I understand what you're saying. Yeah, we

Beth 39:56
came from the earth and we're going back to it nobody just getting out of here alive. That just that yeah, that is that is just a fact. And so, you know, I've obviously got more runway behind me than I have ahead of me. So I want to make the most of, of all that is ahead of me. And, and I'm just very grateful to be you know where I am at this point on my journey. Yeah, it's been an interesting one. Yeah. So thank you so much. Yes.

Arline 40:30
Thank you for being willing to tell your story. I have a couple more questions. You mentioned hiking and walking and being able to nature how what any other things that just bring all and wonder and those kinds of experiences for you?

Beth 40:46
Well, I absolutely love reading. And I love documentaries, you know? Oh, yes. Yes. It's really kind of a weird spectrum with me, because I like for example, I can really get into true crime. But then I can switch over to stand up comedy and enjoy it. I can't I love it very, very much as it is. Well, it's well, and also to it's all storytelling, right? Yeah, yeah. We're storytelling, meaning making people. That's what humans are. Yeah. And so I do love that too. I really, you know, I've always enjoyed music very, very much is what my degree was in years and years ago, you know, back in the day, but yeah, I mean, I'm just really well, I can tell you some authors, I'm kind of taken

Arline 41:37
by but I was gonna ask, do you have recommendations, podcasts, books, music, anything that was valuable to you while you're deconstructing or? Yeah, that you just want to share? I'm here for any recommendations.

Beth 41:48
Yeah, it was some of the podcasts that I'm really into right now or we can do hard things which is Conan Doyle's with her wife Abby and her sister Amanda. In fact, she had Nadia bolts Webber on

Arline 42:00
today. I haven't

Beth 42:01
listened to the episode. Is that to get up stone such good episode, and I love one called indoctrination, because it's by a psychologist named Rachel Bernstein. So she has most most of her guests have been in cults of sorts. But she also has included a lot of evangelical Christians in store. She even had Marlene when Nell from leaving the fold, you know, on there, and marlenas book was very helpful to me. Then there's one called trust me, which is also about being in cults. And the two hosts of that one of them was raised in an evangelical group. And then there's one called a little bit culty. Yes.

Arline 42:40
Is that Amanda monto? No, that's,

Beth 42:43
that's Sarah Edmonds and Nikki Russell who were in Nexium. Okay, they live in Atlanta. Oh, okay. Yeah, and then straight white American Jesus. They just do such a good job with that weekly roundup of connecting the dots back to evangelical Christianity with all the all the things happening in the world. I find that really interesting. So a loved one and Doyle and untamed in particular, I I've read all her books, okay. In fact, the first one I read was when she was still a Christian.

Arline 43:19
Oh, it's some love book. I felt like she had a book about love whenever she was where

Beth 43:23
she had one about, about marriage. Yeah, about marriage. And then that was just for her marriage ballparks. Right?

Arline 43:29
I've only read untamed I, I have confession. I don't love memoirs. Like I like podcasts where someone's telling their story, but I don't want to read 500 pages of their story. But somehow I read untamed and I loved it. I was like, this. Yes. It was spoke to me. I guess that's the phrase people use.

Beth 43:49
Yeah. Oh, but it really I mean, it's so affirming. Yes. So women. Yes. Yeah. So that really? I mean, that's kind of how I was born was untamed, I guess, in anything by Annie Lamott. Anne Lamott, girl,

Arline 44:03
oh, she's just I've read, I've read all of her books as well. And she, yes. All things in the mind. Go ahead.

Beth 44:11
Yeah, I mean, I reread her books. I've read every one as well. And I, I agree, read them. I mean, she's just incredible. And she lives like 30 minutes from where I live. I would love to see her someday. That's on my list.

Arline 44:24
I know, she still goes to church, just show up at our church and be like, hey, oh,

Beth 44:28
yeah. Yeah, that's tricky to do. Yeah. And then Nadia Bolz Weber I love her. Now her book on I think it was called shame about sex. It's really, really good. Big. Yeah, because she really wrote it for those raised in purity culture. And even though nobody called it purity culture. When I was a teenager, it was still purity culture. It was this. There was a lot of taboo around sex. Yeah. You know, outside of marriage, for sure. And then a Jamie Lee Finch wrote a book called you are your own. And that was really a helpful book for me too. Super, super encouraging. And I really, she used to have a podcast that I listened to, I don't think her podcast is still going on. But those were all things. I mean, there's a lot, but I did try to curate down a few to share, thank you for sharing, but I just appreciate so much, you know, the format of this podcast, and, you know, the the spirit that it is done in because it's not about us and them.

Arline 45:40
No, it's just people's stories. It's about

Beth 45:43
stories. So that's the best. And I really, really love that. So I really appreciate the opportunity. I feel very honored. So thank you.

Arline 45:53
I'm honored that you one of the most beautiful things about doing podcasts like this is people honor you with their stories like, and so thank you for doing this. Thank you for being willing to tell your story. And I know, people will relate to it. And you'll find information in the deconversion anonymous Facebook group because people already know you're gonna be like, yay. So yeah, thank you so much, Beth, for telling your story. Yeah,

Beth 46:17
thank you, Arline. I really appreciate it.

Arline 46:25
My final thoughts on the episode. I love hearing people's stories that span multiple decades, like people who've, I don't know, it just shows no matter how long you've lived. What you've been convinced is true. For however long like things can change. People can stay open to changing when there's new information. Beth tried for years and years and years to make the God thing work. And it didn't work. She did all the right things. She said all the right prayers. She participated in the right activities. She was super conservative. She was super liberal. And just all the cognitive dissonance little thing after a little thing like she said death by 1000 cuts. Over time you just realized like it doesn't work. And she was willing to be okay with that and deal with whatever grief or sadness or loss of community that came out of that. And now she's in a place where she knows her own thoughts. She knows her own desires, hopes, dreams. She's living in embodied life. She has her Sunday's free like there's just so much freedom. So much joy and happiness that she's been able to find without religion without God. And her spirituality is good for her. And it's good for others. Loving Kindness, inner connectedness and holding space for people to exist without judgment. Like those are all good things. Oh, good things to bear. Thank you again for being on the podcast. I really appreciate your your authenticity, and your willingness to like, just tell so much of your story. I appreciate it.

David Ames 48:18
The secular Grace Thought of the Week is pluralism. Best story reminded me and and current headlines have reinforced how much we need pluralism. Contra, what Mike Johnson current speaker of the House says the separation of church and state is both good for the church and good for the state. And whenever those two things begin to mix with one another, bad things happen. I grew up in the 80s and saw the Moral Majority begin to acquire political power. At the time, it seemed somewhat innocuous. Today I have a completely different view. The Christian nationalism that is apparent within the politics of government is dangerous and needs to be called out. pluralism is hard though, pluralism means we do accept other people's voices. But we run into the problem of the paradox of tolerance. The only thing we cannot tolerate is intolerance. Until next time, my name is David and I'm trying to be the graceful atheist. Join me and graceful human. The beat is called waves by MCI beads. If you want to get in touch with me to be a guest on the show. Email me at graceful atheist@gmail.com for blog posts, quotes, recommendations and full episode transcripts head over to graceful atheists.com This graceful eight This podcast part of the atheists United studios Podcast Network

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Andrew: Dino Dad Reviews

Atheism, Autonomy, Deconversion, Naturalism, Podcast, Purity Culture, Scholarship

Arline interviews this week’s guest, Andrew. Andrew is a self-named atheist “paleo-nerd.” He grew up home-schooled in a fundamentalist church in southern California. His whole schooling was religious and that included Young Earth Creationism.

In high school, Andrew struggled with his shy nature and some depressive episodes. The church didn’t seem to have room for people like him. As a young adult, finally making his own decisions and living a life without fundamentalism everywhere, Andrew saw how much he could accomplish on his own. He had had the resources inside him but hadn’t known it.

Now, as an atheist, he’s figuring out what life looks like for himself. It includes a wife and kids, online friends, lots of dinosaurs, and a happiness that isn’t perfect or perpetual but is enough.

Links

Dino Dad Reviews
https://dinodadreviews.com/

Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/dinodadreviews/

Recommendations

Paulogia on YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/@Paulogia

Strong non-religious community

Deconversion Anonymous Facebook group
https://www.facebook.com/groups/deconversion

Interact

Join the Deconversion Anonymous Facebook group!

Graceful Atheist Podcast Merch!
https://www.teepublic.com/user/gracefulatheistpodcast

Support the podcast
Patreon https://www.patreon.com/gracefulatheist
Paypal: paypal.me/gracefulatheist

Deconversion
https://gracefulatheist.com/2017/12/03/deconversion-how-to/

Secular Grace
https://gracefulatheist.com/2016/10/21/secular-grace/

Attribution

“Waves” track written and produced by Makaih Beats

Transcript

NOTE: This transcript is AI produced (otter.ai) and likely has many mistakes. It is provided as rough guide to the audio conversation.

David Ames 0:11
This is the graceful atheist podcast United studios Podcast Network. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome to the graceful atheist podcast. My name is David and I am trying to be the graceful atheist. Please consider rating and reviewing the podcast on the Apple podcast store, rate the podcast on Spotify, and subscribe to the podcast wherever you are listening. We have a merch store on T public you can get all of your graceful atheist and secular Grace themed items there The link will be in the show notes. If you're in the middle of doubt, deconstruction the dark night of the soul, you do not have to do it alone. Join our private Facebook group deconversion anonymous and become a part of the community. You can find us at facebook.com/groups/deconversion. Special thanks to Mike T for editing today's show. On today's show, Arline interviews our guest, Andrew Andrew describes himself as an atheist paleo nerd that comes out in his website dyno dad reviews and you can also find him all across social media under the moniker dyno dad reviews. Andrew grew up in a fundamentalist environment that held to young earth creationism, which is very difficult if you're a bright young person with an interest in paleontology. As an introvert, it was difficult with the expectations for evangelism and various other things. And now he reviews books about paleontology for children and adults. And you can again find him at dyno dad reviews. Here is our lien interviewing Andrew.

Arline 2:03
Hey, Andrew, welcome to the graceful atheist podcast.

Andrew 2:06
Hey, good to be here.

Arline 2:07
So you and I connected shortly after the deconversion anonymous Facebook group started. And I count you among my friends. So I'm really excited because I, I talk to you on the regular and now I get to hear your full story.

Andrew 2:21
Yeah, I'm excited for this as well, for the same reasons. Great chatting with you and everybody else. Yes,

Arline 2:30
I have built some really good friendships in the group and getting to meet some people in real life. Just a few, but it's been really nice. So we usually begin, tell us about the religious environment that you grew up in. Okay,

Andrew 2:42
well, I grew up in pretty strong religious background. I feel like I kind of have to pull all these different threads together a little bit because they're very much is this kind of family tradition. On my dad's side, my grandpa was one of the founding members of the church I grew up in. And on my mom's side, we have this big extended family that's still relatively close, despite its size, and lots of them are missionaries and things like that. And we always took everything fairly seriously. Yeah, I grew up going to Sunday school every Sunday. And we often did the whole Wednesday night thing as well. I would say he, we grew up in Southern California. So there's, there's only so conservative you can go there. I feel like but for Southern California, it was pretty fundamentalists conservative, and all that.

Arline 3:57
What kind of church was it? Like what denomination is a

Andrew 4:01
independent nondenominational church? But all of those tend to be vaguely Baptist in their beliefs. So that's

Arline 4:12
true. I found in the few places we've lived. There'll be the big, mega church looking church in town. But they're, they're Baptist. They just don't have it in their name. They're part of the SBC usually. Yeah.

Andrew 4:28
And actually, our church did technically fall into the megachurch category. We had maybe about 1000 members and the worship center had space for even more, but I think they got a little overly optimistic when they built it because it was never super full. But they had very robust Kids program. I still have fond memories of growing up and that most of my friends were actually through church group and stuff like that, because I was actually homeschooled growing up Okay, education, I think is another aspect of my religious background too. I mean, I'm sure there were academic reasons, like, you know, purely academic reasons. As far as like general test scores and things like that, that my parents decided to homeschool me, but we were also a little bit of the be apart from the world sort of mentality. Yeah. Not even an extreme way, because we would still watch movies if there wasn't too much swearing and stuff like that. But there was definitely that suspicion of secular education and stuff like that.

Arline 5:45
So I imagine you're like your curricula. That was all Christian.

Andrew 5:53
And each of my siblings tried out homeschooling for a year, but then they all ended up going to the private school that my church actually ran. instead. I'm the oldest in the family. And then my,

Arline 6:09
I was gonna ask where you have in the lineup? Yeah.

Andrew 6:13
My second brother, I think my parents decided that a more traditional environment would just genuinely be best for him. But by the time my second two siblings were getting into schoolwork, I think it may have been more just, my parents didn't necessarily feel like doing that at that point. And so they got to the same school as well. But by then I was relatively self sufficient. And my mom could just put me in front of an assignment sheet, and I'd power through it and get it done, usually by noon, and then I would just hang out and read or watch TV or things like that. Even though all my siblings started traditional school around. First or second grade. I was homeschooled K through eight. Okay. So just kind of in my own little bubble there.

Arline 7:09
Yeah. Now where you're part of coops to sports teams, any kind of math club, any kind of thing? Yeah,

Andrew 7:17
my mom always had me on the swim team. And we did we got our homeschooling curriculum through this sort of co op thing. They didn't really do classes, except for like, specialist, rare, like special art events where you could come and do stuff like that. They would do the organized, standardized testing, and report our grades to the government and do all the paperwork stuff so that we wouldn't have to. And they also organized field trips and stuff like that. So okay, I knew a few kids through that, but it wasn't any sort of, you know, regular interaction. So all my friends were through my youth group, basically, at least in my early childhood anyway.

Arline 8:23
So then high school youth group, college youth group or not youth group, I guess, young adult. Are you still involved there?

Andrew 8:30
Yeah. High school was quite a shift. But

Arline 8:35
oh, because you went K through eighth. And then where you just,

Andrew 8:39
you just school jumped into public school? Not even not even like a private Christian with anything. So Wow. I was definitely nervous.

Arline 8:46
I bet how, yeah, how was that

Andrew 8:49
adjusted better than I would have expected? And I think a big part of it was finding one of my friends from youth group there. Oh, good. Okay. Yeah. Name was Tyler. And I just kind of latched on to him for dear life. Yeah, he was kind of my lifeline to getting plugged in there. And most of my high school friends were, I met through him because I was still very involved in youth group at church and started doing the various summer camps and even a couple mission trips, although I was never super into that. I felt like I should be doing things like that. And there was this sense that the best Christians would become missionaries, you know, but I could never get myself to get in other people's faces. Not just to the witnessing part too, but uh, For a lot of these trips they wanted you to, like get friends and family to pay for. Yes, whatever, whatever expenses you incurred, whether it was just like weekend lodgings or for some of the bigger ones travel expenses. I say travel expenses, but it was like, you know, driving the church van, a few states over or something like that usually. But you know, I couldn't even handle that part really. I was just like, why am I bothering these people for this?

Arline 10:36
Yes, I hated that part of things. Because my family we were mostly a nominal Christians. And so they didn't care if the church was doing a mission trip, and they didn't want to give money to something they didn't care about. And it's just awkward to like, be a kid and have to ask a bunch of grown ups from like, it's Yeah, yeah, that's a weird experience right there. Yeah,

Andrew 10:59
although, in my family, we were always very supportive of missionaries, obviously, because I've first second third cousins who are in the field even now. So there was this strong family identity that was kind of tied to all that. Oh, wow. So interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So my hesitance was also very much a point of shame for me too. Because it that was that was more just kind of my personality getting in the way or so I thought, you know, and I've always kind of been shy and hesitant to do anything that makes me feel like I'm forcing myself upon other people. You know,

Arline 11:49
I can understand that and the church doesn't. Maybe today it's different. I don't know. But when we were young, like the church values the very outgoing the very go get them the in people's face. And those of us who are like could you just go we just have like a one on one conversation that we've already planned and everyone is on board and everyone's consented. Yeah, I don't understand. Yeah,

Andrew 12:13
that disconnect between my personality and the at least the perceived expectations of the church shins everything that goes with it was kind of a major source of well, it was always it was always emotionally uncomfortable for most of my life, but it got pretty unhealthy as time went on, especially in high school and college. You know, I'm very much aware that I'm, you know, just a very middle class white boy and I don't have the biggest problems in the world. But you know, the church does kind of build up these expectations that you be not like important but you're gonna go on and do great things for God and yes, and for me, like not only am I not living up to that, but it feels like it's it's not just happenstance that I'm not living up to it but like my personality isn't like a good match for that and so I began pathologizing parts of myself that were just normal and then you know, once you throw purity culture into that as well then that becomes a whole thing. I was in high school like around when all that was kind of at its peak. And so you know, again, as a male I didn't definitely didn't get it as bad as maybe the girls did. But you know, the don't look at porn don't masturbate message was very thoroughly hammered down. Like in high school. We were like reading these little self help books about, you know, avoiding lust and temptation and all that. Yeah, I very much absorbed that messaging. And all this kind of came to a head and college which started off pretty well. You know, I was excited and whatnot in my freshman year.

The expect statement of being in a new place and feeling like things are moving forward sustainably for a little while, but as time went on the negative groundwork that had already been laid started Just raring up again. And I went to the campus therapy, I went to the campus therapist at one point. And after talking for several weeks with them, I more or less got the diagnosis that I was suffering from depression, and that I had actually had those tendencies for most of my life most likely had

Arline 15:38
your family had any. My dad was never a Christian. So he had the vocabulary, like the psychology, vocabulary of depression or anxiety, things like that. But I became a Christian as an adult, and we'd never had that vocabulary. Did your family have any of that vocabulary as far as

Andrew 15:57
a little bit? Cuz there's seems to be this general acknowledgement, that it's kind of a family illness on my mom's side, okay. At least a few of the people in that group that I've talked to, it seems to have been something that My great grandpa dealt with, and as well as my grandma, okay. And I actually had an aunt who ended her own life in college due to depression at one point. And that was before I was born even. So, there's this general awareness of it. But it's not really talked about much. So I didn't, yeah, I never really got much education on it, I guess you could say.

Arline 17:02
So like, what did you do with that information? When you found out, it was possibly a depression?

Andrew 17:06
Well, I briefly tried medication. But I did not establish a proper, like, support network or anything. And so when I was frustrated that it didn't seem to be working, I just kind of quit. And I think it I don't even tried it for like a week or something at that point. So if I had had the proper, you know, ongoing evaluation, then? I don't know. Maybe I would have maybe I should have stayed on that. But, you know, yeah, there wasn't really any ongoing discussion that I was having about it. And so I mostly just kind of fell back on the general Christianese as my way of coping with it, just like, oh, just trust God harder, and pray more, and maybe he'll take it away. And you know, even even seeing it as like a selfish disease. You know, like, Oh, you're so focused on yourself. Like, why don't you just think about God more? Yeah. So that kind of spiraled. And by the end of junior year, and all throughout my senior year of high school, I was in a very deep depression. And I was trying to rely more and more on God to fix it. But just to no avail. You know, I literally every Sunday ended with me. hiding in the back of the worship center, crying in the corner, just in tears, praying for anything really, like sometimes I would be praying to make the depression go away. Sometimes I would be praying just, you know. Oh, I'm just a terrible selfish person anyway, so just hollow me out and make me a puppet. And just, yeah, at least make me worth something, you know. Yeah, that was a major blow to me. It kind of I felt like it kind of derailed everything. But then kind of also forced me to confront the fact that I wasn't necessarily going much of anywhere in the first place. Cuz I feel like I'd sort of been doing this Christian sleepwalk. For Maya have teenage and young adult life where I was just like, well, I'm trying to follow God and the chips will fall where they made the it'll just work out, you know, I'm sure he has a plan or something. Okay. And so I began to realize I didn't really do the work that I should have to figure out where I went to college, or what I wanted to do with my life. Because, you know, that suspicion my family had for secular education kind of, I absorbed that, and I never took any secular college as a serious option. And so really only ever, seriously considered about five Christian schools and only even applied to two of them. The one that I did, which was Baylor University, I honestly selected that one because they had found a woolly mammoth skeleton on campus while building one of the dorms. But in fact, they had, yeah, that they had a program that was closest to my interests, which was also involved in excavating that mammoth, because Biola happens to be one of the two Christian colleges that has very, a very robust anthropology program, which includes archaeology. I had always been interested in paleontology. And if you had asked me, as I was going into college, that's what I wanted to do, really. But, you know, I didn't want to go to one of those secular schools, yes, where they actually offered that car. So I figured, archeology, especially if they were practicing their field methods on the mammoth skeleton was the next best thing. So I did that. And I thought, you know, maybe if I get myself a solid Christian base, I'll be a strong enough Christian that I can go to a secular school later. But again, I just kind of got swept up by that sense of, Well, I didn't even have much of a sense of purpose, but I figured there must be purpose somewhere that was going to work itself out. So I didn't really think about where I was going too hard. But anyway, you know, as I was in the depths of my depression, and I did at least still continue going to the campus therapist, off and on. And, you know, at one point, I kind of realized the situation I had gotten myself into, and, you know, my grades were suffering and everything. And so, I don't know, the basically Long story short, I feel like I kind of only technically graduated, as I put it sometimes because I have a degree and everything. But it's not really in something that I actually had that much interest in doing. And I struggled so much the last couple of years, when, you know, all the serious classes were being taught that I feel like I didn't even necessarily get the full benefit of the degree that I do have. So, you know, now here I am graduated with not really much to show for it. And so I kind of spent the next year now feeling kind of emotionally postapocalyptic, you know, just kind of sitting around and not getting much done. You know, oftentimes, I think my friends would call me wanting to hang out and they would just let it go to voicemail and it just kind of became a little bit of a recluse for a bit. I did actually somehow meet and fall in love with and mutually attract my wife to be at this point as well. Not entirely sure what she saw me through all this but we met in college and started dating and eventually I did get just kind of a basic nine to five sort of job. So I was starting to save up money along with her and we got married about a year after that, or no year after she graduated because I was on a four year check and she was on a five year track.

So it was at this point that I was starting to realize that my religious assumptions weren't getting me much of anywhere. And that it was, in fact, while sometimes secular solutions and sometimes just, you know, letting go and not having anything to do with it in general, that was the real solution not

Arline 25:31
having anything to do with, like, Christianity in general or Yeah. Cuz,

Andrew 25:36
you know, well, the job that I got wasn't anything to do with my degree, working did to give me some sense of, at least I'm competent enough to hold down a job. And, obviously, getting married to my wife was a big emotional boost as well. And so, you know, as I was just kind of struck by the fact that, you know, through all these years of praying, and begging, and all that, you know, I never got any mystical sense of healing, or never really felt the presence of God or anything like that. But then just doing these very mundane, normal things, helped me feel much better than any of that ever did. And so, not long after that, not only not only did I, you know, kind of make a conscious decision to stop praying for myself, having having found that being married, didn't necessarily cure what I would have considered lust. I also made the decision to just stop beating myself up over that, and, you know, not worrying about it anymore.

I was realizing that praying for healing from my depression wasn't working. And I was still experiencing what I would consider lustful thoughts, despite now being married. And so clearly, prayer wasn't helping, and my religious assumptions were getting me nowhere. So I made the conscious decision to stop praying around them. And I also basically gave myself free rein to just not control my sexual thoughts or anything like that. And you know, it, both of those things suddenly got better. Nope. Because I wasn't constantly, you know, well, you know, in one sense, they didn't get better, because my impression, all things being equal was still at a roughly equivalent level to what it had been. But I wasn't constantly praying for it to be taken away. And so all that time that I would be praying and thinking about it, you know, had the potential to be something else. So if nothing else, that was 111 Less occasion on which I was thinking about my depression. And so and, you know, thinking about it just always would spiral into actually, you know, getting into a depressive funk. And so, you know, when I stopped praying that happens that much less often and I was generally and then when I stopped concerning myself about porn or anything like that, we now that the maybe it's as simple as just now that the forbidden part of it wasn't there. Suddenly, it was less interesting. And so now I was doing that list to

Arline 29:19
know things. I had a similar experience when I decided mine. I don't I never was formally diagnosed. So I don't know but it was there was like, what they call mom rage, where it was like, I was so angry and me like it was a scary whole scary thing for my kid. Like it was really bad. And I just kept you know, you're praying about it. You're asking like, God, please help me like you're, you're supposed to be. You wouldn't use the word magical but like you're supposed to have power to like, help fix these things. And when I when I when I did, I did. Similarly, I consciously was like, I'm not going to pray about this anymore. All it does is stress me out because I don't know if God's gonna help or not. So I have more anxiety about the thing. And it was like my brain cleared up in a way that I didn't know, my brain could clear up. It wasn't perfect, you know, but it just it took away that extra layer of anxiety. And then my husband and I, he d converted first. And I went on my own journey. And one night we were talking about pornography. And it was like, like, you know, because we're taught that it's all inherently bad. It's all evil. It's exploitation. It's lust. It's this all this kind of stuff. And I was like, I don't know what I think about it. I don't know. But when it became for him when I was like, Well, if we decide to watch something, okay, like, we'll be okay, that's fine. This will be like a thing that we can try and see. For him, because he had the more compulsive like, wanted to what he was like, it became less interesting. Because now it's a possibility. And I was like, Oh, that's weird. And it was, yeah, that it being the forbidden fruit. I like the way you said that made it way more interesting when it was like, Oh, this is just like a piece of candy I can have if I want it, okay. Then it's just like in the pantry, and you don't even think about it. And also,

Andrew 31:14
there's the whole like, don't think about porn, don't think about porn, don't think about porn. But I'm thinking about it by telling myself not to think about it. Since these knots that it ties you into. Yes.

Arline 31:26
And when Jesus said, like your thought life is evil, and sinful and bad. And like all that. It's just, I have nothing. But you know, we have some bizarre thoughts that go through our minds. And it's like, if that means it's reality, or that means that it's true, then I am a horrible person. And it's Oh, my heavens. Okay. Continue. Yeah.

Andrew 31:53
But yeah, you'd think that this might be where the deconversion happens. But, you know, I was still, I still tried to make it work in some fashion or other or another for the next few years.

It was around this time that I also realized what a bogus conspiracy theory that creationism was, began to accept evolution. Then I also found a group of theistic evolutionists as awkward as that sounds to say on Facebook, and that's actually where I met a mutual friend of you and me, large gain. So we slowly became friends through that. But I think accepting evolution actually briefly saved me that's interesting. For a time. Yeah, yeah. Because some of the things I was starting to notice in the Bible, like, you know, God ordering the genocide of the Canaanites, and stuff like that, I was starting to get the cognitive dissonance about all that. And so once I accepted evolution, I was like, well, either the Bible itself evolves, or if we want to take it somewhat literally, maybe God Himself was just trying to do a selective breeding program on people and trying to make them more trying to make us more spiritual or something like that. But that was an interesting intellectual period,

Arline 33:47
I was trying to make all that work.

Andrew 33:50
But one of the funny results of that was that I told myself, I didn't want to give Ken Ham the satisfaction of being correct in that evolution leads to atheism. So I was like, well, whatever else happens, I'm still going to be a Christian. So I honestly think that's kind of what sustained me for the next few years,

Arline 34:14
you should write Ken Ham and let him know hey, there for a little while, I stayed a Christian, because he wanted to prove you wrong. But you know, things change. But I did want to let you know you had that time period of my life. Yeah. So you said the cognitive dissonance. Evolution you're fine with evolution is trying to make it work.

Andrew 34:37
But the cognitive dissonance still kept growing and despite the distance I had put between myself and God for my own mental health that still wore on me a bit. Because yeah, like you're saying if If there's such a thing as thought crimes and Christianity, then you know, there truly can be nobody righteous, which, you know, Jesus is supposed to save us from. But it's also supposed to, essentially be your thoughts that save you. Because you're supposed to say in your heart, like, oh, I accept you, and I'll follow you. Oh,

Arline 35:23
that's interesting. Yeah, that's where the belief is, and all that, huh? Yeah. I haven't thought about that. Yeah, yeah.

Andrew 35:30
But, you know, if the heart of man is, above all things, and I can't trust my own thoughts and my own reason, then how can I be sure that I was, you know, serious when I became a Christian? And how do I know that? You know, each little thoughtcrime isn't just proof that I'm not really a Christian. And

Arline 35:58
yeah, it can spiral so fast, if you

Andrew 36:01
think about Yeah, yeah. And I think that whole thing, that was the final bit of rot, that really ate away the remains of my faith. Because I just couldn't accept that I couldn't be secure in my faith. I don't I don't know that I was necessarily seeing the deconversion stories that were coming out around then. But I just had this, I still already knew the general Christian response of, well, they were never really Christians anyway. Like, I still had that in the back of my head. And so I was like, Well, if you can have somebody that seems so Christian, that's never really was what anyway, then there's no reason to think that I ever was one. So despite everything that I've done, to try to appeal to God and everything, and so if all these little thought crimes are potentially enough to indicate that I never really was a real question, well, you know, I'm might as well be damned for stealing a chicken as an egg, you know. And so if being in the church, there's a possibility that I'm not a real Christian, then why continue? And I think the final nail in the coffin was me discovering atheist YouTube. And finally having the words for all these things that I was feeling. I think I'm pretty sure it was actually introduced me to that through RM ra attending Tetsu con in 2018. So this is a whole thing that goes down my nerdier side. So I had been involved in online paleontology nerd circles for a long time now. I had already started making a few friends through there.

There's this one paleontologist in particular that I follow named Darren Naish, who has a blog and a podcast called tetrapod zoology, where he talks not just about paleontology, but any vertebrate animals living or dead. And so he's actually amassed quite a following. And you could make the case that a significant amount of the online paleontology world kind of revolves around him to a certain extent, like he's kind of okay. He's kind of become a bit of a hub that a lot of people can relate to. And so he actually felt that he had enough of a following that he could do his own little convention. Oh, wow. You're on his blog. Yeah. And so this year will actually be the 10th anniversary of that. Oh, but anyway, if the 2018 one, our an RA was one of the speakers there, and he was presenting on his phylogeny project that he's doing phylogeny being fancy scientific term for just the evolutionary family tree. Okay,

Arline 39:31
I was going to ask, not everyone would have any, including myself knows what that word means. I've no idea. Okay, now we know.

Andrew 39:37
And so I started watching his YouTube series on that project. But then, of course, I also was seeing his other videos on atheist content. Now that he was in my feed you to begin recommending all the other people to me as well. And I think it was particularly finding apology. Uh, okay. Yeah, that was a big turning point for me because he was in a vaguely similar position. To myself. Well, I mean, other than all the specific details about his life being completely different, but But it had a similar religious upbringing similarly believe in creationism at one point and was now an atheist. And but he was very much the opposite of the caricature of the angry atheist had kind of dominated YouTube up until then. And so I think, particularly seeing this more thoughtful community that develops, also gave me the space to be more comfortable with adopting that label. And so I don't know that there was a specific moment that I decided I had D converted, but you know, essentially, from about 2018 on, I've been more or less officially an atheist since then.

Arline 41:09
And so now, you know, we're told that there is no, there's no joy, happiness and purpose, meaning any of those things whenever you leave Christianity

How do you find those things now? Now, I will say your face lit up. As soon as you start, y'all can't see it, because we're on podcast. But as soon as you started talking about paleontology, it was like, a whole new injury, it was about the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. But so yeah, how do you find meaning and purpose and all the things we were told we can't have? Well,

Andrew 41:48
as been throwing myself into the Paleo world much more thoroughly than I ever had been before. I actually started my own little blog called dyno dad reviews.

Arline 42:01
Yes, it's fantastic. Great children's books available on there if you're interested.

Andrew 42:07
Yes. The I mostly review children's books on paleontology, although I do do the odd book aimed at adults every so often. And occasionally, TV shows and museums as well. But yeah, I've had a lot of fun with that. And I've gotten more connected with people in the Paleo sphere, as we call it through that.

Arline 42:33
I love it too much.

Andrew 42:34
Yeah, yeah, I've been having lots of fun with that. It's been great. I do miss the idea of church in some ways, because I have yet to find a strong real life replacement for it. I've got these great online communities with you and our friends in the deconversion anonymous group. And while my friends in the Paleo sphere, but you know, if you're just to look at me going about my daily life, I very much look like a bit of a recluse. Yeah. And through both my depression and purity culture, and all that I definitely suppressed this over time. But I do think I am sort of a I think physical touch and or just physical presence, I think is one of my love languages. And so I have felt kind of stunted in that regard for the last few years. And I even still have been going with my family to church. Oh, just kind of in the hopes that I could still connect with some kind of community, but that hasn't really been working out very well. There's a couple people that I like that I see sometimes, but you know, church still isn't really hasn't really felt like a community since I left youth group. Oh,

Arline 44:17
wow. Yeah, it's Yeah. It's like this strange experience when becoming an adult, all of a sudden, everything so much harder to build friendships in real life. I don't. And I don't know the like, I've seen memes that are like, I'll wear a t shirt that says I would like to be your friend to the park for playdates, like Are any of the other moms or dads one of the Yeah, it's it's strange. I don't I don't have the answers or know why it gets weird. But yeah,

Andrew 44:48
I mean, I also have my own internal issues help that don't help me in that

Arline 44:56
regard. Understand, like I

Andrew 44:59
said, I have a very strong aversion to doing anything that feels like I'm forcing myself on other people. And so I think, in some ways, that's possibly why I have more online friends than real life friends at the moment because it feels, to me it feels like an online friend always has much more of a chance to back out if they want to.

Arline 45:24
Oh, that's interesting. But

Andrew 45:25
when you're in real, when you're like, face to face with someone and talking to them, you know, it's harder to politely get away from that. So I think I am just kind of, I just kind of have a bit of social anxiety in that regard, I guess.

Arline 45:43
And like, with online friends, at least, what I found is, well, I hope there's this freedom, because I've been living in this freedom. So I hope it actually exists of like, not having to get back soon, every single time. You know, like, there's this amount of distance where it's like, if I don't have whatever energy, I need to like, chat right now. It's okay. Like, I'll get back when I can. But then there's also this like, I don't know, it feels like there's more freedom to, like, we'll, we'll chat. And then we can have space, and then we can chat and have space. And when I say that I have you and I are in a group thread. And I am always, always late, like I don't have a clue. That's what's happening by the time I get to it. So I don't know if that's good or not good. You know, having that space and taking it.

Andrew 46:33
You also have the advantage of casting a wider net and have having a greater chance of finding people that actually

Arline 46:41
click well with you. Yes, if I were bound by geography, I would have a lot fewer acquaintances and friends and

so here you are a heathen and atheists. Paleo nerd. I love it. What recommendations do you have for people who are D converting or have already D converted? Well,

Andrew 47:11
I would definitely recommend apology, like I said before, Paul appname pa ULOGIA. So it's upon on apologetics. Which, funnily enough, apologists somehow never seem to catch. Because, really, unless he was so happy, really. I know, right? But literally every apologist response video to him I've ever seen. They're like, so there's this guy, like, pollutes Paulo, Jia? Wow. On your profession, that's fine. To be doing this on purpose.

Arline 47:52
Oh, my gosh, we'll have it all in the show notes. So don't worry about how it's spelled, like he's, we'll have him in the shed

Andrew 47:58
anyway. But he's always super kind and grace, gracious and everything he's just a pleasure to listen to. And then, I don't know, I would almost say the YouTube algorithm can take it from there. Just the people that he associated with, but, you know, I would also obviously recommend this podcast. And like the our Facebook group and other online communities like that, I also find that a strong, non religious community is also helpful as well. It's just good to have some sort of community of mutual interest that you're involved in that is not tied to the church or anything like that. Yes. For me, it was the online paleo community, and just being able to talk with joy about things that we love that are just there don't have moral implications on our lives. It's just something you love. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just very, very healthy activity. Yes.

Arline 49:15
Yes.

Andrew 49:15
You know, that's, that's something you can't neglect and all this because I think there there can be a tendency to spiral in different ways once you come out of religion and take mentally unhealthy tracks. And I think that's where the whole, you know, early 2000s angry atheist YouTube culture came from. It's just these people who D converted but then never quite answered the now what?

Arline 49:47
Yeah, like what do we do now? That isn't just being against something the whole time? Well, Andrew, thank you so much for doing this. This was such a lovely conversation. I really appreciate you Big nine.

Andrew 50:00
Yeah, I was nervous that I wouldn't have anything interesting to talk about. But this has been

Arline 50:13
my final thoughts on the episode, I've had a few other opportunities to interview people that I've become friends with online that this was my first time with someone like that I talked to not every single day but pretty close very often. And so this just made my heart so happy getting to talk to Andrew and hear his full story. Your wish this had been YouTube's you could see him light up, it was like a completely different person, like telling the the beautiful but difficult story of his deconversion. And then when he started talking about his paleo nerd friends circle conference, it was just he lit up. So I guess one of my big takeaways is y'all find that thing that lights you up that makes you one of those things where you just talk about our something you love so much that just makes your heart happy and makes you excited and makes you want to just tell the whole world about it. That's one of the things we're told in Christianity is that this is the most important thing, Jesus is most important, you should care about this. But they just should all over us about something that may or may not be super interesting to us. And then they want us to tell the whole world about the thing that's not super interesting, and it just doesn't, it just doesn't work. So y'all find the things that just light you up, whether it's your family, or paleontology, or some other ology, or for me, it's children's books and kids, the options are endless. We may not be able to make money off of it. But like we can love it and do it and enjoy it. So find those things. The Facebook group, like I've built some great friendships there, if possible, if you're interested, we will have links in the show notes. deconversion anonymous Facebook group, come to some of the events come to the Tuesday night podcast discussions or our weekend social. That's once a month. And y'all meet some people. They're fabulous. We're fabulous. Andrew, thank you again for being on the podcast. It was so lovely.

David Ames 52:22
The secular Grace Thought of the Week inspired by Andrew is except your personality. There are many ways that you may not fit in, in church. But one of the difficult ones is being a precocious intelligent kid, who is an introvert, growing up in the church. The expectations to be demonstrative to be evangelistic. To be out front and in leadership in one way or another is absolutely a huge burden on such a person. I want to be clear here that there are lots of difficulties for kids who are outgoing and extroverted as well. So it's not just about introversion here. But the message that a child takes in is that there's something wrong with them because they are not matching up with the expectation on this side of deconstruction and deconversion. You can accept your personality, who you are, you can lean into the strengths of your personality. If you're an introvert who likes to study and focus on details, or an extrovert who is a people person who brings people together and is a hub of community. whatever your thing is, you can lean into that and accept it and whatever is a perceived weakness. There's no pressure anymore. No one's asking you to be something that you are not you get to be yourself. Until next time, my name is David and I am trying to be the graceful atheist. Join me and be graceful. The beat is called waves by MCI beads. If you want to get in touch with me to be a guest on the show. Email me at graceful atheist@gmail.com for blog posts, quotes, recommendations and full episode transcripts head over to graceful atheists.com This graceful atheist podcast a part of the atheists United studios Podcast Network

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Racquelle: Deconversion from SDA and Conspiracy Theories

Agnosticism, Atheism, Conspiracy Theories, Deconstruction, Deconversion, LGBTQ+, Podcast, SDA

Arline interviews this week’s guest, Racquelle. Racquelle grew up in Canada in the Seventh Day Adventist church. Conspiracy theories were common in her household. Some of them she bought into.

Throughout her life she went through periods of doubt but something kept bringing her back to Church. A sense of obligation and expectation never left her.

Eventually, Racquelle deconverted from her faith and deconstructed the conspiracy theories. She now has an interesting perspective on the deconstruction process.

Links

Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/racquelle.pilon

Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/racquelle_p/

Recommendations

YouTube

Holy Koolaid

Podcasts

The Thinking Atheist

The Friendly Atheist

Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman Podcast

Conspirtuality

Oh No, Ross and Carrie

Books

#AmazonPaidLinks

Quotes

Once I started the motion it started moving very quickly.

We aren’t actually looking for truth we are looking to confirm what we already think
and so we will find it if that is what we are looking for.

Obviously the creation story, Adam and Eve, is a myth. And If it is a myth, then all of it is bullshit … it doesn’t hold up … it doesn’t make sense.

If [they] do not face it, deconstruct it, see the criticisms … life, as they get older, confronting death, confronting change, often times it will take them back.

Interact

Join the Deconversion Anonymous Facebook group!

Graceful Atheist Podcast Merch!
https://www.teepublic.com/user/gracefulatheistpodcast

Support the podcast
Patreon https://www.patreon.com/gracefulatheist
Paypal: paypal.me/gracefulatheist

Deconversion
https://gracefulatheist.com/2017/12/03/deconversion-how-to/

Secular Grace
https://gracefulatheist.com/2016/10/21/secular-grace/

Attribution

“Waves” track written and produced by Makaih Beats

Transcript

NOTE: This transcript is AI produced (otter.ai) and likely has many mistakes. It is provided as rough guide to the audio conversation.

David Ames 0:11
This is the graceful atheist podcast United studios Podcast Network. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome to the graceful atheist podcast. My name is David and I am trying to be the graceful atheist. Please consider rating and reviewing the podcast on the Apple podcast store, rate the podcast on Spotify and subscribe to the podcast wherever you are listening. We have our merchandise store on T public you can get all of your graceful atheist and secular Grace themed items there The link will be in the show notes. If you're in the middle of doubt, deconstruction, the dark night of the soul, you do not have to do it alone. Join our private Facebook group deconversion anonymous and become a part of the community you can find us at facebook.com/groups/deconversion mighty had the week off so any editing issues you can blame me on today's show Arline interviews this week's guest Raquel Raquel grew up in Canada in the Seventh Day Adventist Church. In the Seventh Day Adventist Church she always felt slightly set apart different from the surrounding Christian experience. Throughout her life, Raquel went through periods of doubt and recommitment and found herself coming back to church again and again. Ultimately, the way the church treated LGBTQ people, and the violence within the Old and New Testament were issues that she could not get around. Eventually, she deconstructed her faith and she has a really interesting perspective on deconversion and deconstruction that I think you're gonna enjoy. Here is Arline interviewing Rocco.

Arline 2:06
Hi, Raquel, welcome to the graceful

Racquelle 2:08
atheist podcast. Hi, Arline. Nice to meet you.

Arline 2:11
Yes, nice to finally meet you. The way we normally start is just tell us about the religious environment you grew up in. Um,

Racquelle 2:18
I grew up Seventh Day Adventist. And I know that that seems to be a bit of a smaller contingency. I've seen a few throughout the deconversion anonymous Facebook page, but it's still a little bit smaller, we felt smaller, even growing up we've had felt like definitely we were kind of the, the different people for sure. I grew up kind of born in it. Second generation, I guess on my mom's side, and third generation on my dad's side. And I grew up in the seventh devenus community in Alberta, Canada. So there was like, college and high school and elementary and everything all on a campus and the big church and some industries. Cuz you probably know, any type of Christian private schools are not cheap. Yeah, so kids who were going to college or high school could work in some of the industries that were on campus. So that's kind of what it was like when I was really small. I think of it as being conservative. But looking back, we weren't super strict compared to, but it was around different people for sure. Like there was a variety. I knew kids in my school whose parents were very strict. Most of my friends and most of us looking back it was fairly I guess liberal in the sense not liberal in theology. Like we sang hymns at church you know, the kid I think they probably loud drums now but like, but liberal in the sense of life was fairly normal. Like I didn't feel super isolated from society. It was funny because there's a a something I've just accepted a podcast that I listened to I can suggest that for any listeners who are interested call haystacks in hell. And I'll explain the title of that later. Who just had a question today, their podcast comes up every Saturday which is kind of a funny nod to the fact that we kept saying yes, that asking about Halloween cuz I guess that's even a question with evangelical people. Did you grow up with Halloween? And we did we we dressed up my grandma made popcorn balls when that was still allowed because I'm an older millennial. So that was in the seven years before the scares all went around about that. I mean, I watched all the TV programs I knew other popular music like I didn't feel isolated in that way from the the world, the secular, secular world, but yet in some ways you do feel different because your beliefs are so much different. And you do have this background idea especially as you get older and you learn about the doctrines that it's very much the other you know, people are the other where the innocence where the other end I went to school, mostly Christian school, except for a couple years I went in grade eight, I went to public school and then grade 1011, I went to public school. I know this in retrospect, my mom had become fairly disillusioned, I think with her faith because she had my dad was very abusive person. And so when they had divorced, I think she felt very, I knew I knew this leader from afterwards conversations with her as I got older, I didn't know this as a child, but that she had gotten very felt very abandoned some wider, or that the expectation is that somehow she had failed and not staying in the marriage. Right. So I think she felt a great deal of and there was some other things she had gone to an avendus college and there would have experienced some date rape incident and stuff like that. So I think she was just had a lot of issues. And then she just felt very unsupported within the church. And he also had a good friend who was closeted gay. So I think, just a lot of things. So even though I went to school, there, we didn't, we weren't always consistent with going to church every week, as I kind of got older until I was in my teens, and not at all in grade 1011. Because we had moved to another province, I was fully had the teenage experience of drinking and drugs and like it was a fairly normal teenage years. And then I after high school, funny enough, I started working at this place, and I met my now husband when I was like 18, or whatever. And, you know, you asked you asked those questions. Where are you from? Where did you grow up? Where did I was like, Oh, you probably wouldn't know is this I went to school at this little Christian School in Macomb, Alberta. And he's like, Oh, so you've seen him like, back because nobody knows that. And his mom was honest, his dad was Catholic. So he'd gone to Catholic school, but he knew of it right. He'd gone to church as a young person. Oh, and I had been baptized when I was when I was 10, which is, like, considered very inappropriate of churches to do that. But it was after like a week of prayer, you know, like they we used to do, I don't know if other churches do this, but especially you'd been on a church school campus, they would have these big week of prayers at the school. And they would bring in special teachers, speakers and stuff. So it's a lot of, you know, you know, you've been I'm sure ballistic series or things like that. emotional manipulation. So, at the end of the week of prayer, you're this vulnerable 10 year old who's also kind of at a dysfunctional home, he's going, oh, yeah, you know, you're baptize, which is so bad, because like, you can't stick with it, or, or in what your mind is the ideal of it, right, that's presented to you. So then you go through teenage and you do normal teenage things. And then, you know, then you feel even worse, in a sense, if you had never gotten baptized in the first place. And I didn't, I didn't dwell on that a lot growing up, like there was a lot of stuff going on in my home that had nothing to do with church or Christianity anyways, so like, I was focused on a lot of those issues. But then they met my now husband, and we started getting interested in church again. And then we were rebaptised. Like, when I was like, 19, or whatever, you know, he showed more interested in it first, and then I kind of like, not that he like, he wasn't a bully, or he and like pull me into but it was just, it was more of a sense, like, oh, you know, God's God's really using this person to bring me back to him, right, kind of, kind of a feeling. And then so for a few years, we were really, I'm sure my family. I know, my family thought we were kind of getting extreme because we it's hard to explain to people some feminism in a sense, but it came out of the, the Great Awakening time, the Second Great Awakening of the eight hundreds. And then if you know anything, they were our early founders, were part of this Millerite movement who believe that Jesus was coming again on a specific date, he didn't come and then they kind of reset the date. And that was something called the great disappointment and then they believe that oh, okay, we got the props. We got the day right. We just got the thing wrong. And actually something happened in heaven and blah, blah, blah, is this crazy thing? Ah,

Arline 9:18
that's convenient. Oh, yeah, it's it's it's typical.

Racquelle 9:21
It's typical, like moving the goalposts kind of behavior which when you're indoctrinated and growing up, I can look at all in hindsight now, but it all seemed. And then of course, we had a prophet's which, of course, yep, similar in the sense similar in a sense to similar but different to Mormon, cuz I would say there wasn't nearly as much it wasn't nearly as scandalous as obviously scandalous behavior, like I can look back and go no, oh, there's something problems with it. But you know, whatever. So we got more involved in the more serious teachings of our church and we take it very serious Wesleyan started reading more of her name is Ellen G white and we started reading more of her read her books. And we took our faith mores too seriously. And we actually even went for a few months out to this, what they call self supporting schools because they're they're like, they're adventurous, but they're independent. So they're getting it's kind of getting fringy but not full on like, not like David Koresh weird, but just like, but just more more more like they consider more authentic, you know, getting back to the Bible, kind of a, you know, we're getting back to the real the truth, the the true love of God or whatever, you know, however, people define that. And so we're there for a few months. And I know my family was a little bit because they're not there. They were they were they were conservative, Christian, but not like me on that. And we just viewed it as well, we were just taking our faith seriously, right. We also never pushed it on them. Like we were never trying to like, Oh, you have to think that way we do. We just kind of we're trying to live what we thought was right. And then we left that place, because we found it really culty we so we ended up leaving? Yeah, I know. It's funny. It was weird. Where they're

Arline 11:08
like little things along the way. And all of a sudden you're like, or is it just like something big happened at that place

Racquelle 11:14
where that's where we left early, we were there for a few months, it was supposed to be this medical missionary thing was very poorly, okay. But the whole compound it just those kinds of places I find, no matter how well meaning and I don't think the I don't necessarily think the people who started it were super culty in themselves. I don't think that's what they were trying to do. Never. I'll give them that much grace that there was they were very problematic, and then a lot of ways, but they weren't trying to establish any sort of cult they didn't. They didn't necessarily, but just the way people behave, you know, you felt watched you felt like what were they doing? Well, there was some weird stuff. They had all these all night prayer, meeting things. And then some of the avenues put on this thing. If you ever see in your community of revelation seminar, that's 100% said Davines. Okay, that's amazing facts or, or

Arline 12:03
I've seen that

Racquelle 12:05
stuff. Yes. That's revelation. So that's, that's a relation seminar. And that's simply evidenced. And so we were part of helping out in the community with some ministers that were coming to do that. And so this one guy, he did this one portion of how some Davin has tried to explain Daniel and Revelation, prophecy breakdown, and he didn't, he wasn't very good at presenting was very confusing. And so my husband Michael had said, just made a statement that we were in a primitive Church was like what we should do, he made a critique, like saying that I probably didn't come across well, we could probably the past certain people just piled on him. It was really weird. And they were like, Oh, you're you know, you're I can't even remember he'll he can tell you the words better. But they just really had this thing. And we just started feeling really weird and uncomfortable. And we left early and I have family that lives in the state. So we just kind of visited them and came home plus I was founded I was pregnant down there. And I was starting to need to know about me even in April is tough. I live in Georgia. So we were in Phoenix city. Columbus, Georgia, Phoenix City, Alabama, right on the corner. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it was so we were just decided to leave and come home. I started to feel really the pressure very deeply of I was trying so hard to emotionally connect with it. Yeah. But always really struggled with that. Like I was really started with actually feeling any sort of presence of God or that my, my prayers were going anywhere. I felt I never felt surely of salvation. And I, I just I remember thinking like, if I'm not, if I'm doing all this for nothing, if I'm doing all this and then not saved anyways, why am I doing this? But I still had these deconstructed at that point, it was more just like, Screw it. I'm leaving. I I'm not even why am I bothering like, like, I might as well just live my life how I want to and if I'm going to be lost Anyways, if there's, if you know, you know. And so for many years, we were sort of out of it. We have two kids, I guess when my son was born, we still weren't there. They're about four years apart. I had my daughter when I was 20. I had my son when I was 24. We still weren't really in it so much. And then we had moved away. We are living in this small town where it like my husband's parents lived in we moved out to Vancouver, British Columbia. And our kids were getting older and I think partly because we had never really yet deconstructed it. There was still that call. In a sense, right? There's all that call especially when you really grew up with something and you really grew up with a deep sense of doctrine ation that this is the right thing or that will ultimately you you do want to go to heaven or you don't want wouldn't be lost or, or those kinds of things and you think, Oh, I'm not doing right by my children or something by not teaching? Yes, yes. So we did start going to church sporadically. So even I'd say in the last see my, my daughter is 35. My son is 31. So probably probably in the last 20 years, it's it's been differing levels of in and out in and out of it. And being disillusioned still, I never felt really close with the church community, though they were never a welcoming place. So that was never placed. I felt like I had a home even though but I still thought, well, I should be trying to find it, or I still should be figuring it out. Yeah, and I just started to get just, just over the years, I started to get more and more progressive in my own ideas. And I was moving in and out of where I, this is really short, and I'm trying to keep this distinct but

Arline 15:58
no, you're fine.

Racquelle 16:01
It was like, I never really felt like I had a home or family in church. So that was leaving to go there. Because I know that's a thing for some people is they really feel a pain in leaving when they deconstruct because they're leaving their community i i was always struggling with like, I wanted to find that but never found it in there at all. Yeah. I didn't feel connected with those people. I didn't find them terribly well. There's a person here and there. But it was all it was it was a bit of a strange, toxic bunch. There was a lot of weird history to the church. And then just i There were certain shifts we had when you grew up some families love people vegetarian, not everybody is it's not? Yes, I

Arline 16:45
didn't know that I have a friend. Yeah,

Racquelle 16:48
it's not an absolute thing a lot. There's a lot of people who, even in the states consider those conservative because it's too conservative is a little bit different in the States. And it is in Canada, although it's changing a lot of here, too. A lot of people still do that what they call the clean meats based on the Levitical clean versus Yes, unclean laws. And then there are people who are vegetarian. And then the way it was spoken of in the EG white writings was like, eventually we would be moving off of all animal products, because as you know, the world gets more corrupt and blah, blah, blah, we should be moving to completely cleaned diets, a lot of wellness, a lot of the wellness stuff that was coming up in the 1800s is mixed in with messages and stuff, a lot of pseudoscience and stuff. But we have been primarily vegetarian because I grew up both. And just for my own has been an animal lover, I tend tended to be primarily vegetarian. And then we made that decision probably about 1518 years ago to be vegetarian fully. Because we weren't eating a lot of meat anyways, we always grew up, I always grew up eating a mixture of some days, some days we didn't, my kids have grown up with it like that, too. And then we became vegan. And now, that wasn't part of our churches thing. Although there are some avenues to do our plant based. There's this more religious stance mine was mine was more ethics and more rights. And that's what made it stick for me. Because back when my kids were young, and my my husband and I got more into the fringe Adventism we were plant based for a couple of years. I didn't stay that way. Because just whatever, a lot of reasons. But I found that when I made that choice, and I and my compassion, sort of, I've always been sort of an empath and more of an empathetic person. But when I made that choice, just it opened up my world up more to even more and more social justice issues and compassion. And I started to view things differently with how our church oriented itself to a number of things. And I think a lot of it started with the LGBTQ issue. That wasn't something that was it wasn't something that was talked about a lot like, like I know, in the I think in the evangelical church, it's really focused on avenuewest theology is pretty similar, you know, like, that's, you know, like, if you go to the how they stand it on our church website or whatever, like, it'll reiterate that, you know, marriages between a man and a woman you know that the biblical thing, but they didn't pound it from the pulpit, the way I think it's done in American evangelicalism, even though that's I think that's changing and I think it was probably different in the States. But growing up in Canada wasn't I've heard from other people in the States, it was a little more so but I didn't grow up. I didn't grow up hearing a lot about it. I just knew the opinion about it. Yeah. And that bothered me because I started especially being part of animal rights you do you meet a lot of gay people that are doing amazing things, who are compassionate, wonderful people. And none of that started with making sense to me. And then another another big catalyst for me was the violence of the Old Testament, the New Testament, that became a huge thing like I, yeah, that was a huge, that was a huge thing. For me, that was a huge problem that I couldn't reconcile for myself, in a belief in God. And I do want to say, that part of part of how I grew up, I had, my father was very radical in a lot of ways in his religion, he would go in and out of weird religion. So I'm going back to this because I'm gonna tell you about myself. He had, he was a conspiracy theorist, 100% Oh, wow. And I found that all my brothers and I, my two brothers, and I have been definitely more likely to be like, I was a 911, truther. They're kind of for a while. And I definitely was anti backs for a number of years. And I found that I was more inclined to conspiracy the night and I think that's true with a lot of a lot of, and we're seeing that play out in the world right now that that's because the more magical thinking I think you accept, yes. And I found this too. I'm finding this with a lot of avenues that I've watched. Because I have a few people I haven't been for you for you for years now. But I've, but I have a few old classmates and different things on Facebook and stuff like that. And I've, and I've watched, you know, with Trump, and with him with COVID, I've watched and then you probably heard about the trucker convoys and stuff here in Canada. Remember that? So I've watched a lot of them be unfriended a lot of people, people that weren't posting they just needed, didn't need to see their stuff, right. And it's true of evangelical too, but sometimes I think even more of evidence, because we have a lot of Magical Thinking in the sense that we've accepted this idea of a prophet. So to me that even seems like you would even be more susceptible to some really strange ideas. That's interesting. Yeah. So hook line, and sinker and the hole in our hole. And really, a lot of people. I'm a member of a few X SD, Facebook groups and stuff like that. And we've we've kind of talked about it as being or like, there was an also an X SDA Reddit subreddit group that, you know, someday having this basically started out as conspiracy theory, because it started out with this idea of, oh, well, you know, it's the second year that the Great Awakening, and Jesus is gonna come and they send it down, and they were disappointed. And then they switched. And then they've made up this whole theology around why that didn't happen. And what really happened, something took place in the heavenly sanctuary. There's all this big story about it, that I'm not going to explain, that would take forever. But anyways, so I had been sort of involved in that too, like in my brain, I, I even watched some old Alex Jones videos back in the day about, you know, Bohemian, Bohemian Grove. I mean, I've not watched it for like, good 20 years or more, but you know. So I think because of that, I think, because of that mindset of that magical thinking and being cling to that, I find when I see Adventism, that there's this very specialness, feeling. And I think it's even more so than even a lot of just just Christians, because it's so indoctrinated into the mother denomination, but growing up, and especially if you start really getting more serious about and learning about learning your faith, as we did, there was this very much, you are very much. They're the remnant church. Yeah,

Arline 23:40
yeah, you're the chosen one, the leftover, the ones that before

Racquelle 23:43
the end of time, and we are the ones with this, the most important message to mankind before Jesus comes that kind of thing. So I think that that also makes you more susceptible to compute to conspiracy theories, because, well, as we know, it's got nothing to do with intelligence, because I consider myself a pretty intelligent, very intelligent person. That's very true. And I do have critical thinking a lot of other realms. But they play into that specialness, too. We know that even there was I remember reading a really good article about like, how sometimes really intelligent people can be more susceptible to conspiracy theories, because they're so good at talking themselves, or the justifications or like talking themselves into it or rationalizing it or, or and then harder to get out because, you know, the whole sunk cost fallacy and like, how could I have been duped or all that kind of stuff, right. So as I started sort of confronting and deconstructing certain ideas, my ideas of God or I, I was really struggling with any sense of like, a loving God or talk about that. I think I've heard even you you talk about that your own personal thing, but like a Thought that was there, you know, so many times, you know, I would pray or if I was going through different struggles with my kids or different things. I just had this intense feeling of like, I'm like, like my words are just going up to the roof. I'm talking to myself. Yeah. And so I was struggling with that. And because the oven's ism is, is probably a lot of critics say about it comes across as a very works oriented religion, even though we tried to say it's not theirs. It's very, very weird in there. There's there's been different movements to try to focus on Jesus and everything we're about, you know, whatever. One of my movements towards sort of less Adventism a little more progressive was Greg Boyd. I don't know if you've ever heard of him.

Unknown Speaker 25:45
I know the name. I don't know. Yeah, he's

Racquelle 25:48
a minister of a big church out in, I think, oh, soda or something I can't remember. Okay. He's less than different. He wrote a book called The Myth of a Christian nation. And he lost like, 1000 members of his church after he wrote that book, sermons. Wow.

Arline 26:04
Okay, so at least props to him. I don't know what the books about but even just the title.

Racquelle 26:09
Yeah, it's very anti the idea of that. Yeah. Yeah. It's actually it actually is it holds up, it's still a really good book. And I started listening to some of his sermons where he really tries to focus on love. And he's, he's very, he's done a whole series on, you know, the, the context and the MIS interpretation of not having women in leadership and all of that kind of stuff. He's, he's brave. Okay. So I started listening to a lot of his stuff and had different ideas about our church. And, and, I mean, I'm still sporadically going, but it's so funny because I was, I think I was sort of one of those physically and mentally out people for a lot of years before I actually fully deconstructed part of listening to this podcast, haystacks in hell. It's in the next Adventist podcast. The guy who went who started it, he had deconstructed, and he had started listening to this podcast, but it's only an archive, they had done this back, the two women had started this podcast called Seven atheists. Back in 2015, there was had run from, I think, 2014 2017 2018. So prior to I mean, I wish I could go back I wish I was in thing there and listening to it real time. But so I went back to the archives, and I've listened to all of the episodes because it just felt like, ah, you know, when somebody and grows up the same as you, even if it's slightly different, yes, it's really meaningful to be able to laugh or think or it feels like you're almost having a conversation with an old friend, because you always knew that weird church that you grew up in, and the weird little quirks of it and things like that. But one point they made, I thought was so perfect. And it was a way I often thought about it in a sense, but they articulated well, it really well is that there's a couple different ways people leave the church, they either actually deconstruct, and either they just deconstruct and they go to other denominations, or they deconstruct completely and become unbelievers. Or they kind of just leave it but they've never really looked at it. They've never, they've just walked away because of like, like I did when when my when I was just feeling what's the point of all this, but I never, I never, I just felt like I was lost. And I couldn't connect with God. And I just felt it was I felt it was a problem with me. Yes, and yes, not so much God and I was I was at fault, right? Like, I couldn't figure out I was just a sinner, I was just lost. I've just a hopeless cause or whatever. And so you just kind of go do your own thing. And you're it's all it was kind of there to the back your mind, but you're not really, you're not really dealing with it. So and I've noticed this in like old school classmates that were not religious at all growing up, but they're kind of more so now is that when you don't do that, when you don't confront it, and you don't deconstruct it, you don't look at the criticisms of it and like figure that out. Because the indoctrination is so strong, because especially if you grew up in any went to church school in it like I did, and a lot of these other kids do. When something happens in life, and I've seen this with my younger brother. He like a life and death situation or older brother passed away. And my younger brother has a really serious heart attack and some things happened, right? Or you have children, some for some people that either takes them away from faith because no hell are they going to raise their kids the way they work. So I've heard those stories. Yeah, for that on the podcast. Or you think oh my god, I have to get back to church. I have to I'm not doing anything. I'm not raising my child in the way that he should go kind of a thing right. So unless they deconstructed something life as they get older, confronting death confronting change, oftentimes, it'll it'll take them back

Arline 30:01
Yeah, especially if they don't go if they don't go anywhere else to find the things that the right church used to fill. Yeah, I

Racquelle 30:09
think so I think that's kind of where I was at for a lot of years. And not really not really not feeling comfortable with it, looking into certain things, having conversations with my husband about how much I didn't. I struggled with certain things. He didn't feel comfortable with many things. We had some conversations about that. Whether whether we agreed with all of it, but that we still were going to be connected with, you know, faith in some way or whatever, right. And then, it was weird. It's, I don't even remember what it was I came across, but we are in Mexico, with with his mother who brought his mom and dad with us. And I was just Googling something. I was looking up some vegan recipe or something. And I came up to this lady's blog, who was dumbed down, she was so Christian, but she was excellent. So it was she she had a big she was still vegan, and she was she had a recipe blog, but she had written this article something about why she wasn't an Adventist. And what she was just talking about deconstructing. And her reasons were like, Yeah, I get what you're saying, like, but they weren't, she wasn't leaving Christianity, but I was like, Oh, it got me thinking. And yeah, I can't even I can't even remember exactly what she said. But I resonated with some of it. It was to do with the expectations of the community, how they kind of use you and abuse you and they don't they don't take to critique Well, or it was it was a bunch of different things. Right. I was like, Yeah, okay. Yeah, I really resonate with that. And I she had a Facebook community which she sends archived, because it was given as as, as religious things can do get a little on people. And she just said, I don't even have the energy right, but energy for it anymore. And she's just kind of shut down. But this one guy had commented on there saying, Oh, I have this podcast and I'm an accent. So I started listening to his podcast, I stopped because he started getting a little bit weird after Trump, but so but, but it was interesting just to listen to because he also he's covering certain of the taboo topics like criticizing the prophet or, or what does, because we have these we have this sense in our church that we really are the ones who understand. Hmm, we have the keys of the mysteries of Daniel and Revelation, what they really mean, right? We we know it's been given to Okay. Yeah, oh, yeah. No, it's very, we have the interpretation, we have figured it out. We have the light, God gave us the light through our Prophet and we know when we, we can not the time of Jesus coming, but we've got we've got the whole thing figured out what what revelation means. And so he was critiquing that when he was going through some of like, what a lot of modern scholars know now to be the context of those books. And when you start to look at the history in the context of them. Now, this was all around the time of Trump and I know a lot of people have spoken, like, watching their churches, follow up to Trump and disillusion them. That didn't happen to me because I was already thought the people are a little bit crazy. Every understood, I though, it didn't surprise me that people did that. Yeah. It was already understood how lunatic Christianity could be. But I still didn't think necessarily Christ, the idea of Christ was bad or that it's that No True Scotsman fallacy of like, they have it figured out, they're not really

Arline 33:22
good. They're not the true Christians. If they were, they wouldn't think this way. Yes,

Racquelle 33:26
right. Or even not just so much that it's just like, they're not really living their faith. They have it. It's a phony God, whatever. Anyways, so that didn't really propel my decontrol because of my big deconstruction sort of already started again, like with the LTV, GTB. And the violence in the Bible issues and things like that. So for years, for years, even before I started looking at these books, I wasn't I didn't have any sort of personal, you know, relationship or or study thing, or I wasn't really praying it. I was trying to make sense of it all in my head, still feeling guilty that I wasn't partly like, they're still pretty much just living my life for the most part, but it was still there. You know, we weren't really attending church. We're still occasionally but it was just radically I was very disillusioned with the church. There was some weird political shenanigans going on there with some of the people how they were treating this pastor that I'm still friends with. He's not in the church anymore, but he's still a Christian. And I would only go occasionally, because I sing. And I would they would ask me to sing special music sometimes, or I would help with the praise team. Sometimes when I wasn't really, I felt kind of like a hypocrite doing those things because I wasn't really

Arline 34:41
super understanding.

Racquelle 34:44
So once I actually started the motion and moved fairly quickly,

Arline 34:49
ah, that's interesting.

Racquelle 34:51
Like I started listening to this when I started listening to this one guy's podcast. Then I read this book by Rachel Held Evans, which I don't remember the title but it was about the Bible kind of To inspire,

Arline 35:00
maybe inspire is a black and white cover.

Racquelle 35:04
No, you know, when I listened to it, it was more about her kind of. I don't know if it was that one but it was more about her reimagining the by like taking back the Bible for herself and like looking at the Bible stories and reinterpreting them and making them meaningful. But yeah, I really liked her zoos. I think at this point when they really I think she'd already passed away, which is really sad. But

Arline 35:28
she was on the list of women I couldn't read. Like she was this like, not erotic, but really close. And it wasn't until she had passed away. And I didn't know much about her. And then when I was deconstructing, but didn't know that's what was happening. I started reading Pete ins and some other some more liberal people. And she was one and I read Inspire. I don't know if that's the same book, but it was the first time now it's okay. She she has a few I don't remember all of them. But um, but I read Inspire. And it was the first time I really, like realized how much of the Bible, I had been taught to see it a certain way, rather than just letting it be like, poetry or a really cool story or an art. Oh,

Racquelle 36:11
it was inspired. It was He was sleeping giants walking on water and loving the Bible. Yes. Yes. So good rates. Yes.

Arline 36:20
And it was so good. And it did. It was like, okay, I can just let the Bible be what it is. Eventually, I was like, Okay, I do think it's just a bunch of stories like the other the other ancient myths, but it was a good it was it was such a good book. It was and I listened to it on audio as well. Yeah, go ahead. And

Racquelle 36:37
I think it might have been her reading it actually, if I if I have to go back. Yes. It was so good. It was such a good book. Yeah, I was I was in and so that was an eye for me. The progressive books that I read prior to her would have been the Greg Boyd books, because he had written and he listened to a whole sermon series on him about the Getting back to the idea of love. And that our job is to love not to judge and how that's actually all these other sins in the Bible. And the biggest one was judging other people. So I'd already sort of been going in this different route than my own church was like, or whatever. So then I read her book. And then while I was kind of listening to this other podcast, and then I just started looking at the criticisms about the critics of my own church, I had had come out of my church, I had criticized it that I had never read before. Talk about the nose, those were the nose, right? Oh, not people not to the way that say Scientology is right, because we are told that we're suppressive people or something, and we're not. And we're not excommunicated, or anything like that. But it's a, you don't want to listen to those books. Because it'll lead

Arline 37:46
you astray, which look where we are.

Racquelle 37:50
So I still didn't read any of the books, but I just started looking at websites that share some of that information. So then I and then I did read one book of looking into the Prophet and some of the lies and whatever around that. Yeah, so that was a big thing to actually critique the faith. At this point, I still, I wouldn't say didn't believe in the idea of a god. But it wasn't really sure what that God looked like I wasn't, I was in a sort of a state of limbo of what did that mean? Because I didn't believe in the Adventism. Or I was really doubting it. I still kind of thought, Okay, we have the Sabbath, right, or things like that. But it was still sort of loose on that. Like, I wasn't sure that I even believe the Bible I I was starting to understand that the Bible has been misinterpreted and what what does that all mean? I hadn't even read it yet. But but then I saw I read a bunch of critiques on Adventism first, because I had to look at my own church because had been so deeply grilled into me that we are the truth. I had to look at the critics of that first. That was a that was a big piece for me. And as I was reading all this, I'm sharing it with my husband. So luckily, we did this together. I drove it, but he was originally doing his own thing. He was looking into Buddhism thought and things like that, that made more resonance with him because he wasn't really connecting with the faith either. Even though part of us we still kind of thought, Oh, they've got the certain interpretations Bible, right. They're just living it wrong. And we don't we can't relate to how they're living it or doing it. And then I read this book by Israel Finkelstein, there's another co author of I can't remember his name called the Bible on Earth. It's older this like it's, it's older. I mean, Bible scholars have known this and this is another thing I thought of when I after I read it, it was like they've known this for so long. Yeah, this has been so No, I never knew. You know, I never. I just recently found out that Bible scholars for like 50 years didn't have said no, it didn't exist. I mean, not Noah Moses never existed, like those are all stories. I mean, I grew up in a very literalist tradition, like we believe in a Sunday confession. Where they're young earth creationist. Well, good. We have to because

Arline 40:11
I was gonna say you'd have to be happy

Racquelle 40:13
because you Sunday was one that they saw that wouldn't make sense outside of that, that paradigm, right? So I read this book, the Bible on Earth, and it was talking about, yeah, the Bible on Earth, or it's called the Bible on Earth. Archaeology is new vision of ancient Israel and the origin of its sacred texts by Israel Finkelstein, and Neil Asher, silver, Superman Silverman. And that was going through that was written back and like the 20s, like 2000 2001. And he was just talking about the archaeology and what they were find dnn. And he was talking about how the archaeology had been done up until more modern times of like, the Bible and the spade, right? You go to the archaeology art to find what's there. And so they would find things, you know, how we do we twist things, right? We, yes, we aren't actually looking for truth. We're looking to confirm what we already think. And so we'll find it if that's what we're looking for. Right. So that he's archaeology had been done so much by that by people who are believers where they're Jewish with a Christian and so they would find things that seemed but when you look deeper, no, that didn't it contradicted and it did the record didn't bear out the physicality didn't bear out. And I just remember reading that book going, okay. All right. He talked about the the real origins of the kingdom, how the Joshua, all the all the conquest never happened, all that was just mythology that they that they had vented about there, it was really their origin story. And where that came about, during which now I think, you know, it was just their origin story that kind of came out with King Josiah and like, the sixth century or something like that. And, and I was like, Okay, wow, like, I'm telling my husband all over. I'm reading this. And I don't remember when this was, it was, it was a few years ago. Now. It was a couple of years ago now. Or I just kind of I do remember having an exact moment where I thought and I learned more about the creation, sir. And I was watching other videos to like I was, I found this great. YouTube channel called holy Kool Aid. Oh, I've heard of it. So we were watching different things like that. I don't think I had been listening to any of the podcasts as far as atheist podcast yet. Maybe I was I, it's hard to remember exactly. Because it's all kind of tumbling, right. Like, you're, you're doing all these things. And you haven't? Yeah,

Arline 42:33
it's all coming apart. Yeah. Right.

Racquelle 42:36
And you're just like, it's all like, all these new all ideas. And I just do remember having this thought, where I was like, Okay, well, obviously, the creation, the Adam and Eve story is a myth. If it's a myth than all of its bullshit, it doesn't it doesn't hold up. Like if, if there's no Adam and Eve, a fall, all of that story doesn't make any sense. The whole story of Jesus doesn't make any sense. And I'm like, I don't believe any of this anymore. I don't, I don't believe it. It's all just their mythology story. Like I already learned about, you know, how the Epic of Gilgamesh and stuff and I, there was lots of stuff that I was getting from different places. I had watched vide videos and talks by what's her first name South Africa, Polo. She's a she's Greek, but she teaches that she teaches New Testament. No, no Old Testament and Biblical stuff. At University in England, so she's British, but great. Oh, man, she's that she's a Bible scholar. And like, she just likes the Bible as far as literature, right? Like, yes, yes, absolutely. She still thinks it's interesting. But she knows she just talks about how it's taken out of context. And she's one of those. And also, I had read during this time, and I'd read Christopher Hitchens books. God is not great.

Arline 44:00
Goddess, not great. Yes. That was on. I also listened, I listened to that one as well on audio and it was fantastic. I was angry for a long time listening to it. It was the first it was my first exposure beyond like, the Catholics, you know, with the Inquisition killed lots of people. And then the Puritans and the witch hunt, you know, my, like, basic, bad things Christians had done. But this was like, expanded my understanding of how just religion in general has harmed so many people and made lies. I'm just, yeah, a lot. It was excellent.

Racquelle 44:34
No, it was great. And, and I and I don't really like to Hitchens for a long time, just as like a because I, for years, I was I was one of those people who was able to mock the silliness parts of my faith, like I could laugh. I wasn't, I didn't understand the people who got angry. You know, I had no problem laughing. The hypocrisy or the insecurities or I could take a joke. We'll put it that way, like, that's fine. My daughter's fiance of 10 years. He's an atheist. And we can laugh and talk. And I had no problem with that, or whatever. I mean, I was already sort of, you know, anyway. But But it's funny. And I also then I also read Richard Dawkins book, The God Delusion. And I, what the funny thing is, I had started to listen to the audiobook years ago, and it was him and his wife who did who read it. So and I, I had been curious. I had heard some, and I was like, I'd like to, I want to know what the arguments are. Like, I want to know, I'm curious to know. But as I listened to I was still very much in the paradigm of like, Oh, he's just, you know, like, and then I, as I'm listening to him, I found his voice so arrogant, that he was being really arrogant and condescending. And you're, you're in a certain type of Christianity, but that's all Christianity or whatever, right? And then when I really listened to him, like, no, he sounds very reasonably, then some. I think I still think he can be an arrogant house. But that's a whole other thing. But

Arline 46:03
yes, that's, uh, yep, that's its own podcast. But it's so

Racquelle 46:08
funny how I had that experience of trying to read it like maybe 15 years ago, and then actually read it. Again, giving you the second chance going? Oh, yeah. That my, the way I felt about it was way different than how I asked how I feel about it now. So

Arline 46:26
yeah, now like, where are you now? How did because you've read the four horsemen, or at least two of them so

Racquelle 46:34
well, and I did watch their conversation that they had, there was like a two hour conversation that has listened to that. If you put it up, put a label on it. I don't have to have a label. I'm gonna say it. But if I do label it, I would say agnostic, agnostic atheists, because I, my brother and I were having this conversation one time because he can't he's just so baffled at the idea that how could you know this? And now you don't believe I mean, you know, the truth. Like, you grew up with this, you knew it more than I did. And I'm like, hey, yeah. I knew a lot more than you did. So give me a little credit

Unknown Speaker 47:08
here. Good point. Yeah. But we

Racquelle 47:11
were having this conversation finally, because he just it was just baffled him. And he was just like, you know, and I said, Look, I am I, I am not saying for sure that I know. Right? Because he was trying to he was trying to bring up because he was bringing up the intelligent or, you know, design argument of like, I can't remember that Stephen Meyer guy or whatever, who works for those discoveries. I can't remember. It's just, you know, who tries to make science design of it not. It's just one of those. One of those intelligent design organization that tries to look scientific in their creationism in here was just Well, what about this with this with us? I'm like, Okay, look. I'm not saying that I know everything. I don't know, I'm not a scientist. I wish I will learn on science science growing up, we should have Too bad we didn't. But I said, so. I'll concede. I'll concede to you that, okay, there could have been an intelligent start to everything. That's a million steps to get into a Christian God. That God does not take you to that. So that, even if I can, even if I can see the possibility of an intelligent creator of something out there, that doesn't take me to the Bible.

Arline 48:26
Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

Racquelle 48:29
And so where I'm at now. Yeah, I mean, I still I'll go through bouts where I don't want to hear any more religious stuff. I feel like it also Amin each brain, so I still like to hyper focus on certain things for sure. But also, I do still really like to like, I can't remember someone else was talking about it. I can't remember if I was listening to someone or if someone talked about it on the deconversion on this Facebook page, but something along the lines of it's still helpful for me still, to learn about it. Because I don't feel like I really learned about it right, like so it's still helpful for me to listen to say Bart Ehrman, or, or I sometimes listen to the experience Colin show, although sometimes that's the lowest common denominator people get phoning in with their arguments. I still, I listened to the Thinking Atheist with Seth Andrews. I listened to the friendly podcast. I've read or I've listened to and I want to go back and look at it again. There's this atheist guide to the to the Bible in Volume One and Two written by this assyriology Oh, have you listened to the podcast at all the

Arline 49:42
I have done his Great Courses Plus on the New Testament how Jesus became God, but I've not listened to the podcast.

Racquelle 49:48
So he has this new podcast well, not new new cut podcast, but he's got a podcast called Misquoting Jesus based on his work. So his co host, Megan Lewis are the one kind of interviews in They're there the format is she can interview him and talks. Her husband Josh Bowen. Isn't there both is Siri ologists. So Josh, Josh Bowen had grown up in evangelical Christian, and he's deconstructed out and he has written this volume one and two of the atheist guide to the alternative. Very cool. Yeah. So I've read that and he just kind of puts them in context and story, he tells you the, the overarching story of the thing and then kind of goes into the detail. And then also part one of the part of that part because again, I grew up in a very literalist church, I started I started reviewing this and what kind of even before I think I had my epiphany about not believing or maybe just after I started reading this, I think it's a Nature article called The Impossible voyage of Noah's Ark. And it just kind of goes through each different aspect, like the the animals, the the environment of the water, like all these different aspects. I think it's a very long thing like I have with you're going, oh, man, how do they ever believe this? Like, what? Oh, yeah. Yeah, just didn't think it through, you know,

Arline 51:06
even if we're not explicitly told them to, not to ask questions like, like, for me, the the Exodus, when I found out the Exodus, there's no historical, linguistic, archaeological, any evidence that it happened? It was like, wait, I had never questioned because I just assumed there had to be evidence, because why else would all these smart people believe this stuff? Like it? And so then it was like, Wait, there's, there isn't evidence, like any evidence that this was really how things happen? And And I'll say, Oh, I don't know. Yeah. Because so even if it wasn't that no one told me to question I didn't even think that it needed to be questioned. I just assumed it had to have some kind of evidence behind it. When

Racquelle 51:46
something is taught was that surety among people, people who do have have like, you know, PhDs or whatever rights in theology and theology or whatever, right? And you're thinking, Well, okay, you've you've come across all the arguments. So

Arline 52:01
you've done all the work. Now I just can trust your judgment. And also, you know,

Racquelle 52:08
Han, there's a particular, there's a particular mindset that's drilled into you when you grow up in a young earth creationist group as well. So it's very different, I think, I think, and Bart Ehrman said this, and a few different people have said this, like Matt, Matt Dillahunty, has said this and said, this is like, he feels like fundamentalists are actually more honest. interpretation of the Bible, because they are, he says, I prefer progressives, because obviously, ideologues ideology, I want all of us to I'd rather people think that way. And I agree, and my son and I have had this conversation where it's like, because my kids have probably been atheist. They've been a good influence. They've been great. I really appreciate my children. I prefer that's where people were at if you're going to be a believer, because I, like I think Seth Andrews has talked about like, I and I know other people have to versus I have more in common, you know, ideologically with those people than sometimes some atheists, depending on where they are, as far as humanism goes, or things like that. And they're my biggest allies. But But, but in a purely philosophical thinking of the consistency of belief. There's more hoops you're jumping through to make make that there's, there's to me, there's more. There must be more cognitive dissonance to be there than to be a literalist.

Arline 53:32
And just let it say what it says. And if it makes you look like a bigot, but there, that's God's word. You just gotta

Racquelle 53:40
love the Bible. What's that song? God centered, I believe in that settles it. So cringe. Well, yeah, I think and I think to that, to be honest, when I had that little moment of epiphany, and even since then, I've had those weird moments. I don't know if that's been for you, where I'm like, Oh, my gosh, when I'm dead, I'm just dead. You know, I've had those rare little moments of like, Have you ever had that? I don't know. Like, we're just like, oh, it's, I think that's this idea of like, just being gone and gone. And because you're just gone and nobody remembers you're not thought of or whatever. Because really, you're not going to know but it's just still it's just so so weird. Because you've been raised thinking and to be honest, I never felt certain that I was going to have an either like I never felt that that's part of what led me in and out in the first place. But just the idea that it can be possible, right. But other than that, I don't know. It's like, how did I describe it to my I think I described this my husband's like, I do feel kind of like a weight off my shoulders. They don't have to carry there was definitely more peace. I felt I feel fortunate. I like because I you know, I've been interacting with some people on the Facebook page where I can see this massive struggle and I feel really bad for pupils. It's really hard a lot of fears and I didn't grow up with a fear of hell. That's something we we grew up with in seventh day Adventism because they elation ism. But I did grow up with a lot of end time before the spheres like there's a lot of fear mongering around that. So I did grow. I didn't have those fears. I was afraid of that time, but I didn't wasn't afraid of burning forever. Because to me, even as a kid, I'm like, How could you believe in a God that you thought burned you forever? Like that seem completely vile to me? Yeah. Because I didn't grow up with it like I did. To me that made no sense like you, then you still think that's a loving God that that's, that was so strange to me. So I see people that are struggling with that fear that I feel really bad. And also, I think it would be really difficult if your spouse is not on the same page as you because I'm lucky that I've had that person to talk to all through this has been pretty much on the same page with me, in fact, and I've had the kids to talk to, you know about it. And I found the different communities, you know, like with with the group, and my whole, my whole being wasn't wrapped up in church, like, that is so much harder for people who are that's their community, that's everything to them. That wasn't for me, that was actually it was a struggle for me to feel connected. I wanted that, but I didn't feel it. So it's been much easier to sort of deconstruct once I finally did it, because I didn't have those things. pulling me back in I already felt pretty disconnected for from it for a lot of years. So it wasn't really hard in that, on that front. You know, the guilt or the the indoctrination still was a challenge because I'm and I'm 55. And it feels like oh my gosh, it took me this. Like it's been probably about five years of definitely about three years of not believing at all but like, and I think it's often because I look back and I see younger kids, or they're doing it somewhere in their 20s. Even at this just like, man, as soon as I started to really look at these beliefs, I couldn't believe him like, Oh, I didn't die. But I'd really never looked at it. Because I had a lot of other trauma going on in my life that I needed to deal with. I didn't have the bandwidth.

Arline 57:25
Yes. You didn't have the leisure time to read all these books. Yeah, I've heard other people say it. Like there's a lot of privilege to dish deconstructing your religious beliefs, because it's like, and to be able to live as someone who doesn't have religious beliefs, because there are a lot of people who, they don't even have time to think about that, because they're just trying to survive. And the

Racquelle 57:45
young person there was there was a lot there was a lot there was I had to deal with trauma before I dealt with religion, because there was just like, formerly trauma and, you know, abuse and stuff like that. That was that took up a lot of my bandwidth. And you know, so I didn't I probably just that's probably one of the reasons I never really fully looked at that would have been a whole other angst to go through. normal teenage angst, so yeah, no. Oh, yeah, I remember what I was. I was I think I was listening to the thinking of this and stuff talked about that someone talking about, like, just feeling embarrassed that it took you this long or whatever. He's like, Nah, you got there. You know, you gotta remember the indoctrination that happens and how deep that can be. And yeah, I'm just glad. Glad where I'm at with it now. I'm glad my spouse is where I'm at with it. No. So being all out of it has helped in a lot of different ways. Part of part of COVID happening and watching Q anon happen, even though those things are things that I had already started to deconstruct. But someone on another pot on Facebook patient were had recommended this podcast called can spirituality. And they were they they were three, the three hosts were people who were involved more than New Age wellness community, and they were watching those people get really involved in conspiracies, and yes, huge overlap. Yeah, huge overlap. Yeah, they call it the new age to Kuhn on pipeline or whatever, right? Wow, did I saw a lot of I saw a lot of the connections or the similarities. It's not the word I'm looking for. But we'll go with similarities between the two ways of thinking whether it's New Age spirituality, or whether it's Christian spirituality, you get there pretty easily together, right? There's, there's definitely and you see that within the kuna community, so it was listening to them, because there's a lot of connections in the way that it's the thinking whether it's cold in the New Age cult, or it's cultish thinking in Christianity, thinking which I would say my church is very cultish even though I wouldn't call it a cult per se. It's a cult adjacent or culty or whatever you want to call it. It's helped me really arrange some of the ways I thought and be more critical in my thinking and get out of some of the conspiracy minded stuff and made me confront. Oh, that's not logical or this is why I think that way and I think I'm very fortunate because I, I don't think I could explain to someone else. How do you talk someone on the conspiracy there? I don't think I could tell you, even though I've come out of it. I don't know that I could, because I know what worked for me. But that was, that was only my own investigation that got me there. And why I don't know I'm not special. I don't I don't really know why I you know, unfortunate. I was I never would have gotten down the kuna thing, because I'd already moved away from that, that I was never the hardcore, every loopy conspiracy other certain level, right? But that was never, I never would have got like, I was already. I was already mortified. I was already disgusted by you know, the Alex Jones stuff of the Sandy Hook and all that kind of stuff. Like I wasn't there yet. I was still I was still antibiotics. It was one of the wellness for me that, you know, the wellness. The still the wellness mindset was in there for me like of like, you know, health is some personal virtue that you've attained, right? More than a lot of things, right? More communal aspects of it. And it was funny because one of the CO hosts he's really into what's neurology? Neurology? Neuroscience. Yeah, neuro psych, thank you. And in he actually talked about Ellen White, the profit of my church, as well as as, as related to frontal lobe epilepsy, because she had had a really bad head injury when she was young. And then started visions, but also she'd grown up in a very charismatic setting or whatever, even though we're not charismatic at all. Like, it's a weird story. But, um, and I was like, Oh, that's so interesting, right. And that if, and they, and they had, they had all come from wellness and the mindset and so it was there, it was really helpful to get me into actual science of pseudo science, you know, that was actually big. That was also a big help for me to, to see more clearly and to like, fully deconstruct that of my beliefs. Because I think when I started listening to NAMM 2020, I don't know if I decided absolutely, I was unbelievable. I was pretty close. Yes. So it was like, yeah, so that was also really helpful. Yeah, so that's kind of where I'm at. I feel a lot better about my perspective on life. As far as my own personal thoughts make the most sense, always. Because there's a lot of ugliness that still going on right now. Yes, that's very true. Yeah. So yeah, that's kind of I guess we're not within I, I would say, I'm much more at peace than I was when I was still trying to figure out whether I believed or not, or we're still stuck in church or faith or whatever. And I don't, just in the silliness, like, for instance, I got my first tattoo when I was still kind of on on the believer life. But they felt, even though I thought, I don't think there's anything wrong with it, like, biblically, or anything like that. But spending that kind of kind of money and my beard, like, am I going to be called to account someday, you know, for the waste of hundreds of dollars on something on you know what I mean? Stuff like that, that I see things at the back of my mind, which I can kind of go no go. I don't have to think about that anymore. Well,

Arline 1:03:27
Raquel, thank you so much for telling your story. And girl you have read some books and listen to some podcasts and we will have so many recommendations. I love it. This is fantastic. So thank you, again for being

Racquelle 1:03:38
on the email you a couple of things to email, try to remember some of them because I know it's probably I talked to you might not have been there. I would also I'll send you also if anybody's curious. It will be because you mentioned knowing you've seen amazing facts, things. You've probably heard of the owner Ross and Kerry podcast because I've seen that sometimes Okay, so they go into everything obviously. But they actually had a number of episodes I think I think it was Jessica on the Friendly Atheist podcast brought it up because she knows an avendus family and so she brought up how Ross and Carrie has actually gone through Amazing Facts revelation seminar, yes or no if any, if anybody's interested in knowing what avenuewest believe those are good episodes to listen to all I know that I'll send you the numbers the because it's there was like a few and then there's a break in between and because he he went to all the all the seminars, so I'll send you those and the haystacks. For anybody who's interested in who on the page might be evidence I can recommend some of those resources as well.

Arline 1:04:42
Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it. My final thoughts on the episode. I have interviewed a few Seventh Day Adventist people and I have former Bible study friends that were SGA and a current friend who's SGA. And I feel like I just learned a ton today, from Rock Hill, about seventh day Adventism that I just didn't realize, when she talked about the magical thinking within seventh day Adventism the idea that like, they can just believe that this person was a prophet. And they can just believe that Well, the great disappointment was because of, you know, and then create some kind of story about a battle in heaven, which I'm pretty sure some Jehovah's Witnesses have told me about, which makes me wonder if they just, every time Jesus didn't come back, you had to come up with a story about something that happens in heaven, because it didn't happen here. I don't know. But just the magical thinking, the conspiracy theories, and then of course, with evangelicalism, Christianity in general, a past guest and a friend in the deconversion anonymous Facebook group, Lars Cade, has said so many times, and it's like stuck in my little brain, just believing stuff without any evidence. It makes sense that if you are religious or spiritual in some way, that if you don't have evidence for those things, but you believe them very firmly, then if there are other things like conspiracies that are taught to you, then it is very easy to believe those. That doesn't mean you always do. I mean, it just makes sense. I think another thing that stuck out to me was, like conspiracy theories, like it's not people who are not intelligent. I used to think it was gullible people who would get pulled into cults or conspiracy theories, but it really is just lots of different kinds of people. And it's hard not to feel special when you're the one with that special knowledge that somehow the rest of the world doesn't know about. Anyway, this was a fantastic episode I really enjoy getting to talk to iCal.

David Ames 1:06:58
The secular Grace Thought of the Week is that the religious do not own gratitude. I'm one week late. But this is your yearly reminder that you can be grateful for people and to the people in your life without including a deity in that equation. If you're listening to my voice, you made it through Thanksgiving for those of you in the United States. Congratulations. I hope it wasn't too difficult, that can be very hard going back to family that can be even triggering, particularly with religious family that might try to make you feel like you don't have all of what it means to be human the ability to be grateful to be thankful and to have joy in your life. This is your reminder that you can be thankful to and for people and the religious do not own gratitude. Until next time, my name is David and I am trying to be the graceful atheist join me and graceful The beat is called waves by MCI beats. If you want to get in touch with me to be a guest on the show. Email me at graceful atheist@gmail.com for blog posts, quotes, recommendations and full episode transcripts head over to graceful atheists.com This graceful atheist podcast part of the atheists United studios Podcast Network

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Andy Neal: Andy Films And Hikes

Deconstruction, ExVangelical, Influencers, Mental Health, Podcast

Arline interviews this week’s guest, Andy Neal of Andy Films And Hikes fame. He is self described as a “plus size hiking influencer.”

Andy tells his story of deconstruction, acceptance of his body and his joy in nature. He is an inspiration to all to get outdoors and experience nature.

Links

Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/andyfilmsandhikes/

Link Tree
https://linktr.ee/AndyNeal

Interact

Join the Deconversion Anonymous Facebook group!

Graceful Atheist Podcast Merch!
https://www.teepublic.com/user/gracefulatheistpodcast

Support the podcast
Patreon https://www.patreon.com/gracefulatheist
Paypal: paypal.me/gracefulatheist

Deconversion
https://gracefulatheist.com/2017/12/03/deconversion-how-to/

Secular Grace
https://gracefulatheist.com/2016/10/21/secular-grace/

Attribution

“Waves” track written and produced by Makaih Beats

Transcript

NOTE: This transcript is AI produced (otter.ai) and likely has many mistakes. It is provided as rough guide to the audio conversation.

David Ames 0:11
This is the graceful atheist podcast United studios Podcast Network. Welcome, welcome. Welcome to the graceful atheist podcast. My name is David and I am trying to be the graceful atheist. Please consider rating and reviewing the podcast on the Apple podcast store, rate the podcast on Spotify and subscribe to the podcast wherever you are listening. We do have our merchandise store on T public you can get all of your graceful atheist and secular Grace themed items the link will be in the show notes. If you are in the middle of doubt deconstruction of the dark night of the soul, you do not have to go through it alone. Join our private Facebook group deconversion anonymous and become a part of the community. You can find us at facebook.com/groups/deconversion Special thanks to Mike T for editing today's show. On today's show, our Lean interviews today's guest Andy Neal and Neal is a self described plus size hiking influencer. He is on Instagram. You can find him at Andy films hikes. He is an inspiration to everyone to get outdoors and experience nature. He tells his story of deconstruction, his acceptance of His body and His joy and nature. Here is our Lean interviewing Andy.

Arline 1:45
Andy Neal, welcome to the graceful atheists podcast.

Andy Neal 1:48
Arline, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you inviting me on the show and talk about my story.

Arline 1:53
Yes, I'm excited. I think I've just stumbled upon you in my reels. One day, your your hiking stuff came up, and it was just fantastic. So I started following you. And then one day you just posted, maybe it was a part of the caption. I can't remember something about just leaving religion. And I was like, Wait, there's a whole other story here that I want to know. So yes, there is. Well, thank you for being here. And usually we just begin tell us the spiritual environment or religious environment you grew up in. Oh,

Andy Neal 2:24
wow. So it's long and complicated. I grew up the the son of two disillusioned Baptist preacher kids. So Wow. Both my parents were very disillusioned by religion. They never really like. Called it also like Christmases and Easter's we were always always there. In church, always with that pressure from grandparents who needed to get the kids in church, you need to get the kids in church ended up going to a Christian school, a very, very conservative Christian School in Southern California. That also was big. And it was it was weird. It was Southern Baptists, but the Patrick pastor at the church that was attached to the school was Pentecostal. So he had a lot of Southern Baptists, very conservative things, but then they would take a whole week off of classes because there was an out feeling of the Holy Spirit. And we needed all the kids in the school to speak in tongues, crazy stuff that, you know, Department of Education ever found out, it would have been big trouble. So I grew up in that and then around age of gosh, well 1112 My mother started getting into drug use mostly pills, prescription pills and my parents divorce once California tropic services got involved, and so my dad was like, We need to get the kids back in the church, started going to church really consistently. Age 12 on we moved from Southern California to Las Vegas, where we joined a huge mega Southern Baptist, it was a megachurch, five 6000 members, you know, four or five services. And I got very, very involved in youth group there. And I was there every time the doors are opened. And during this whole time, my family was a wreck. Honestly. My mom was in and out of rehab not been able to stay sober. My parents are just divorced. My dad married someone new, we weren't getting along. And the only family I really had during this whole time was the church. For better or worse. They were there were positive adults there for me a youth group. So every time there was something I would be there every time there was a lock in or whatever I was in the church. I ended up working in the church. My senior year of high school is a janitor helping clean up after services. It's a big mega church. So it's like, oh, just clean up all the bulletins in the pews. Now this will take like two hours if you had to go down like two miles abuse, no joke. So this was a huge church. And then, you know, right out of right out of high school, I decided you know what, you know, actually during high school. Church camps are funny. I had We responded to the call to ministry. And even before that is when I had my conversion experience of something called the choir the fire, which is very problematic that conference. But then I got called in the ministry and high school church camp. And from that point is I'm gonna be a pastor, I'm gonna be a missionary. And you know, from age 16 on that's what I pursued, and right out of high school, went on a mission trip, came back home, my parents said, the parents danced up, Mom basically kicked me out the house. I was on my own, got on my feet real quick. No College, no education. Started working at a southern First Baptist Church, Las Vegas, started working there. quickly went from a youth helper to part time, paid volunteer ish to their youth pastor at age 19. With no formal theological education with kids, I'm literally pastoring who are a year younger than me. I'm only here at a high school that went back quick and often. I went from a very large Southern Baptist mega church to First Baptist Church, Las Vegas, despite people from the South first Baptist, I think huge bills is very small under 500 people. I didn't know the rules about really conservative small Southern Baptist churches. And at that point, you know, I bounced around. I did that for a while and then I bounced around different churches doing children's ministry, worship ministry, I play guitar, you know, so, which was the result of my youth group days, and really just went full fledge into full time ministry. By the time I was 23. I got licensed as a pastor. And my wife shortly after that, who's from Oregon, she moved here are moved to Las Vegas from Oregon to find a job. We met got married, she kind of later in life conversion experience at 1920 in college, and things Las Vegas at that point were very. The economy was crap is 2000 6007 We got married. And so I thought, hey, let's move to Oregon, and Oregon. And I was working at Starbucks, volunteering at churches, churches taking everything they could for me, I was writing children's ministry, I was wearing worship ministry all volunteer doing and then my life is like you need to do something with this. So I decided to go into multiple Bible College in Portland. And did that graduated with a degree of church leadership and ministry. And from there, I went into full time vocational ministry like I actually be paid full time, worked on the coast as a youth pastor for a while. And then things were there's a small Baptist Church there and things weren't going great. So I moved back to Oregon with my wife. We adopted that point, we adopted three kids from foster care to a special needs and worked at a non denominational church here in Southern Oregon. And that was, it was bad. I thought it was because I thought it'd be good because the pastor had tattoos, skinny jeans, like okay, it's a cool hip shirt. They're not there were more to the social justice stuff. I can jive with this. They have a they have a community garden in the back. And it was it was just this. I tell people it was the same theology I was dealing with before, especially with the LGBTQ community. It was just in tattoos and skinny jeans with all of us.

At that point, I remember very clearly my wife was struggling there. My wife was struggling period, she actually went on staff, as a children's director, was struggling. She has a bachelor's and master's degree in education. The pastor was actually younger than me. He was constantly threatened by me and my wife when we were just trying to work with the kids and students. The youth that had come into my youth group at that church were and that happened to my last church to all LGBT, not all but a good amount of LGBTQ students coming and feeling safe there. The elders in the church were getting back as kids weren't coming. On Sunday morning. They come the Wednesday night youth group, so they wouldn't come on Sunday mornings. And I asked a few of them, why aren't you guys coming from the mornings like we don't feel safe Sunday mornings, straight up, don't feel safe. Okay, I can I get that I get that. And there's tons of stories behind that. But yeah, eventually my wife we were at dinner at Red Robin here in Medford, Oregon. And she's like, I'm, I don't believe in God anymore. Like we will but will will, will will. What do you mean, at this point, things were really things were tough with our kids with special needs. We were being told by the church. They didn't need therapy. She prayed away, which seems to be their answer for everything from being gay to having mental health issues.

Arline 10:00
Question. Did your wife say that? Or did you say that?

Andy Neal 10:02
My wife said that she has I don't believe in God anymore. And I'm, you know, I'm like, I'm struggling. I wasn't I wasn't there. I don't even think I'm still. I wouldn't necessarily call myself an atheist. But it's like, I don't believe in God, I believe any of this. And I thought, Okay, our marriage is over. I can't keep doing this. And I understand. It was just like, oh, my gosh, what are we going to do? And then I was just looking around like, this isn't right. What's going on? Isn't right here. This isn't me. It's the same stuff I was dealing with at the baptist church out on the coast and Southern Baptist churches. It's just, I don't, why am I holding on to this and I, through therapy and counseling. I discovered I was holding on to it because during my very traumatic time in my formative years, that was my family. So I had a sense of loyalty there to a fault. Like, I was loyal to this organization to the church, because they had worked. They were there for me when no one else was. And so I felt I needed to do the same for the church to give the church chance, even though they had screwed me over so many times. And then within the next few months, I had started coming to the same conclusion I had talked with the leadership was like, hey, I want to start transitioning out of youth ministry. At this point, I'm doing youth ministry full time, I'm doing worship ministry full time, because they fired the the worship pastor. So I'm working 6070 hours a week for $30,000 a year. So it's, it's it was it was bad trying to trying to get, you know, things don't try to keep my family together. They weren't supportive with our kids or adopted kids. So actually, I told her what are transitioning out of youth ministry, when you start looking for another youth minister, I want to focus on the music and technology. You know, I was always the guy on staff like, hey, we need a video made Andy, can you make a video and go get camera equipment, make a video, make it funny, get the youth together, do a skit put it on screen. And eventually someone that actually in the church had said, Hey, we're starting a small production company, and he would like to work 510 hours a week for us to consult do social media. And I was starving for anything like I need. I just I can't do church stuff anymore. I'm like, Yeah, I can do that. Let's keep it on the download, though. Eventually, the church found out even though come to find out later, the guy who asked me actually asked for the permission first. And they use that as leverage against me. Like, he took another job that permission. I'm like, No, actually, I've come to find out. That permission was asked. And things were getting really bad. And I was I was trying to slowly transition out and just try to take care of my family. And then one day, they're like, oh, no, you're, you're, you're fired, basically. And here is a non if you want to if you want a severance package, here's a nondisclosure agreement. As far as you're concerned, you are leaving to pursue a career in the entertainment industry, and your six months average sufferance, and at time, it came to a shock. It was all like boom week, my wife, our lives were turned upside down. And I was like, Okay, I sign it. I, on one hand, I regret citing because I had to say something that wasn't true. They were firing me. Let's say times, like I need to provide for my family. And they're offering severance. So yeah, I'm gonna take it

and so I did, and then I started just working, you know, in the production industry as much as I could locally in Southern Oregon, which is really huge. And then decided, You know what, I'm gonna go to film school. And the day literally, the day I signed the nondisclosure agreement, I contacted Southern Oregon University, the new film program, their digital cinema, like, hey, you know, I'm 36 years old. I already have a bachelor's degree, I'd like to meet with some people there about, you know, what would it take to get a second bachelor's degree? Because I didn't really at that point, I'm realizing my Bible degrees, not going to be a whole lot of good. Even though it was accredited. It is an accredited Bachelors of Science, it was going to be a lot of good, like, okay, that's why I'm talking to counselors there. I met with the program director, because I found that I can do this in two years, just basically taking all my prerequisites and let's do everything, and went to film school and started working. Every little thing I could do in production and social media and in Ashland, Oregon, which is an amazing town. I love fashion so much. And from that point, I was taken from a very religious, Christian evangelical world. Everyone surrounding me was Christian Evangelical, to a world of Southern Oregon University to Ashland, Oregon national Oregon is home of the Oregon Shakespeare Festival, largest Repertory Theater outside of New York, on the side of the Mississippi, so that Oregon University is renowned. A liberal liberal school is constantly being recognized by advocate Magazine as one of the most LGBTQ friendly schools in the nation, and littles Ashland Oregon. So very, very conservative. Here then plopped into a film program, with all kinds of people I have no never met, you know, I've never been around before, very diverse and I'm like, I like them better, like, this is this is more, this is more me and just fell in love. And at that point my wife and I were, we're going to, we're going to therapy, we're working through things and, you know, today we're still married 17 years later I, you know, part of me this out of you know, I have so I know so many people who've left their faith and even but you know, their partner and then both at the faith but they found out how different people they really were. And they weren't there wasn't animosity or anything, they're just like, you know, we're both very conservative Christians then and we've left the faith and with different people now and they didn't stay together I don't know how we managed to work it out, but we did. And that's not for everybody. I think we were just ultimately compatible on an interpersonal level our faith and our religion isn't what brought us together. So we just were able to work things out and yeah graduated 2018 with a film degree and from Southern Oregon University have been trying to figure out different ways to tell the story of mine tell story of those who lost their faith I was working on documentary for a while did a few short documentaries about that got involved with the you know x evangelical groups for awhile on Twitter that was that that that that rebel Twitter, Dallas, toxic, but in that realm of the internet was very toxic. And just trying to find my footing until I discovered the outdoors at the at the behest of my therapist, I was literally talking with their therapist about just having existential dread and struggle and having something bigger than myself to rely on my whole life. Like it just you know, something bad was happening, like it depend on Jesus, or there's a plan or this bad things happening. It's because of sin. Like, I just feel like there's this big hole in my life. And she said, Go for a hike, go into the outdoors, we're in one of most beautiful places in the world. I didn't instantly fall in love with hiking, and it just became Wow, my thing. I just started posting about it. And started like realizing I am I'm a plus size person. I'm personally bigger body realizing, oh, you know, more serious, I got into hiking or there's not backpacks. I mean, there's not clothes, if any, oh, here's one company, Columbia Sportswear, they do it. So I just started buying their stuff and just tagging them and then eventually Columbia reaches out I have like maybe 4000 followers on Instagram. Hey, you'd love to come to do some modeling for us and other companies are reaching out and then slowly start building this platform and then I one day i i went viral. You're going for a stupid hike for my stupid mental health.

Arline 17:38
I think that's what I saw. I think that's what I first saw of yours you

Andy Neal 17:43
know 37 million views and I've had over a dozen more videos go viral since then. And this is what I do full time. Advocate for people to get in the outdoors for their mental health advocate for the plus size, body positive or body confidence community. And I do post often about me leaving my faith you know, I was very vocal about while I was in university I was very vocal about it and almost very bitter and mad about the church and I just found out that wasn't doing me a whole lot of good and surrounding myself with a bunch of people who were also mad and angry wasn't doing me personally a lot of good. And so I really toned back you know, my vitriol towards the church even though it's deserved I was deeply hurt and scarred by the church. But for me dwelling on that just wasn't wasn't positive. So when I stood back and got to the outdoors I discovered a new side of myself I didn't know existed

now whenever I share about you know about my about my former faith and my former career I'm very I try to be I try to be as non confrontational as possible I try to be like you know, this was my experience never tried to demonize anyone for their deeply held spiritual beliefs because you have those for whatever reason. I think issue when those deeply held spiritual beliefs turn into policy turn into actions where you say someone is less than like if you want to believe Jesus is Lord, great, great for you. But you say because of that, you have the right to legislate someone's morality or you know, say someone can't do something with their body or say these people who love each other can't get married. That's where it's like, no, no, no, no, that's not cool. And since then, what I call myself an atheist, no, but I wouldn't call myself the surly a theist or I, the outdoors for me has kind of become what my religion is what I don't even call it religion. I even like that. This what I, I find meaning and purpose. And I've talked to some people, the best way described is I'm a bit of a pantheist, you know, believe that everything is God or the divine. Some people, I've described my theology as some people that say that's very close to Druidism. And I don't like putting a label on it. And that could just be my way, my way. evolutionary sense of coping with what I've been through and dealing with things, I don't know. But that's just where I'm at. That's the very, very short version of, you know, 20 years of history there. But that's, yeah.

Arline 20:37
Yeah, you go from this here, all the answers, you have to have all the answers. This is the correct way. This is your morality, this these are your ethics, this is literally brought down from heaven and told you what you're supposed to believe and how you're supposed to behave. And yeah, in 20 years, you find that like, you don't have to have all the answers. Like, like, you're like, I don't have to have a label and I love the outdoors has become not your God. I don't know how to say that. But like has, where you go to find meaning and like purpose in life and whatever that feeling is that you get when you're out in in nature. Absolutely.

Andy Neal 21:14
Yeah. The Stingley feelings used to get in the worship service, I feel those on the outdoors now. And I realized it's more of a biological response to to grandeur and bigness or community. It's not the Holy Spirit filling you because I get the same thing. When I climb up a mountain, I'm like, Oh, my gosh, look at this view. You know, it's discovered that's the same thing, a lot of its emotions, and adrenaline and chemicals and just things that your, your body is wired to do by evolution or by whatever. However, that's supposed to work.

Arline 21:44
Yeah, for me, that was part of me leaving Christianity was starting to realize that a lot of the things that I used to think were sinful problems, were just like physiological stuff that I could deal with, with eating differently, or doing yoga or doing calming my nervous system. Whereas like, like you were saying, with your kids, the church spiritualize is everything. So then when they're actually biological things that can help or pharmacological I'm not even sure I'm saying that word, right? Like these things that can be helpful. They're not even options for us. Yep.

So you go hiking, like what? Yeah, I guess what are some of the things that that evokes inside of you, like you were saying, with the biological where some of your places you'd like to go, and,

Andy Neal 22:35
gosh, I love to go anywhere, where I feel smaller. Oh, wow, I live I live two hours from the Redwood National Park. In Northern California, I'm in Southern Oregon, with two hours in there, you know, seven of the 10 largest trees in the world are there and I'm just to go and stand in front of a tree that's like, you know, this, this this tree, he was supposed to be here when Jesus was here, like, and it's the size of a house, you know, just width wise, and then it goes up and you can't see the top of it, or, you know, go to the from there you go to the ocean from climb up to the top of a platen, you know, we have the Taylor rock plateaus here or, you know, any of the mountains or peaks, bodies, a lover I just love like hiking by the Rogue River here in Southern Oregon, or go north to the Willamette River or the Columbia River Gorge. Those places where I'm just like, wow, like, and as a part of that, as this as a plus sized person, you know, dealing with you know, things like fatphobia and size discrimination. And being an advocate for that, for so many people is realizing, you know, the outdoors, bigger is better. And, you know, it's okay to take up space. And then, you know, for the first time in my life, having been big my whole life, having you know, dealt with eating disorders have been diagnosed with an eating disorder having found out because part of that eating disorder was because of toxic weight, my family dealt with food, but also, I had celiac disease, and I was undiagnosed for 34 years. So my body the way my body treated food, my mind was just messed up because it was food was literally killing me. But I was always hungry. That's a whole other story. But having though that my whole life and going out and feeling small sense of smallness. For me, it's just like, wow. And just in the grand scheme of the universe, like I'm significant, but same time. Look at all this. This is just epic and amazing and feeling that feeling of feeling small for me is just it's like none other

Arline 24:41
is hiking and being out in nature. Like is that into like more of an independent thing or have you found like in real life community to share it with or

Andy Neal 24:50
I have and I've been very, honestly very hesitant to get too plugged in into communities. There's one group that I'm friends with the founder unlikely hikers, which is anti, anti anti racist, pro, LGBTQ pro size organization that encourages everybody to get outdoors photogenic Rousseau. She's amazing. We become close friends and that group we've done we've done group hikes together here in southern Oregon and Portland and Salt Lake. And to get with other people who don't look like typical hikers, which, you know, when you think of hikers, you think of, you know, the dude in the Mountain Dew commercial, you know, he's rip doesn't wear shirt, you know, he's, he jumps off a cliff catches the Mountain Dew in midair, you know, that's what you think of, whereas the outdoors are for everybody in the outdoors, have healing properties for every person, you know, not just, you know, white dudes with ripped abs, white straight dudes with ripped abs. And so the unlikely hacker has been a huge community, my online community has been great. But I have been honestly hesitant to get involved with communities just because, you know, being burned by the church and then getting caught involved in the X Evangelical community for a while. And that was just found out how toxic that was for me. I'm very, I'm very hesitant of community. You know, like, what I do is also very lonely because now having this platform, you know, I can't in the outdoor spaces, or even Northwest and parks California, I can't go anywhere without like someone recognizing me. It's like, okay, does this person want to genuinely want to be my friend? Or are they just like me? Because I'm that dude, the dude from the hiking video? Yeah, you know, I've had issues where people have gone on a hiking trail. And people saw me and they took my video on picture and posted it without me knowing, like, Oh, I saw the hiking guide. And my kids are with me, and I'm like, That's not cool. You know, so don't post don't post my location too long gone. Stuff like that. Safety stuff that you'd have to think about, you know, when you're just you know, on Instagram, you're looking waterfall cool snapping, posted, it's like, No, we got to wait hold hours before we post this. So I've been very hesitant. You know, a lot of it because I was really burned by, by the church community, I'm still, it's very lonely. It's a, what I do, what I do is a very lonely job. You know, I have people who follow me who helped me, help me manage things. But it's it's been hard. Trying to find community is difficult, especially knowing you don't want to live in a big town, I don't want to live in a big town. I grew up in Southern California, Las Vegas, I love where I live. Now. I love the community here. But I know for me, that's something that I have to work through and find people I trust. Because when you leave the church, you have always this built in community. So I go from church, to church to church, you know, in ministry, you go the church, everybody want you know, we have this built in automatic community, like people are just there. And they're automatically your friends, because you're both Baptist or evangelical Christian. There, you're just supposed to be friends. And that isn't always great, because you have people who not necessarily are compatible, you know, trying to force relationships or friendships and no work. And the second I left, you know, after being burned so hard. All those friends, lifelong friends, friends from high school, who, you know, I surrounded myself with Christians in high school and college years, they're gone. Like, I can count the number of people who still have contact with me, hundreds of people on one hand, and it's very, it's very just cordial contact. It's not like, you know, deep, lasting friendships. So it's just been it's been difficult, you know, 40 years old now. And it's like, how do you make friends when all the friendships you grew and cultivated with in high school and college and through your 20s? And 30s? You know, you're an apostate. Now, they want nothing to do with you. And they're taught that, you know, you know, I came from a bit of a little bit of a reformed culture, you know, Calvinistic, so either they're like, Well, he was never really Christian, he was a liar, or, you know, he'll eventually come back. So either people are just, you know, an apostate or any conversation they have with me is trying to win me back to the Lord, which just, you know, my DMs are filled with that right now. So I don't want to deal with that. Oh,

Arline 29:23
no, not at all. At least for me, it often feels dismissive. I'm like, You're not even hearing what I'm saying. You're not even seeing the person in front of you. You're seeing the person I used to be or the person you hope I'm going to be. And I'm like, no, like, just, let's just have a conversation. And I have a few, one or two friends that you know, I have very, like some super progressive Christian friends that back when I was a good Calvinist would not believe that they were actual Christians. But those kinds of people, I can keep those in my life. Our values are still similar, you know that. And then I have one or two gets more conservative, theologically friends, theologically conservative friends that I can talk to a little bit. But yeah, it's like, just talk to me, like, just hear me just hear my story. And then it's, it's extra icky. If you're in, you know, your DMS are filled with people who don't know you at all, and are trying to like, yeah, tell you what you need to believe. Yeah,

Andy Neal 30:22
one real I posted in July just about I'm walking towards the ocean, just talking about talking about the subject about the loneliness of not having friends. Somehow, in the last three weeks that real has hit the Christian Instagram, from months ago. It's gone from like, 100,000, to USD almost a million in DM, after DM requests of, you know, three, three basic responses. Hey, you know, don't give up the Lord. Hey, I'd love to chat with you sometime to you're going, you're going to hell to you and never really a Christian, you know? And it's like, wow, how loving like really, and your posts wasn't even for them. It was just me expressing where I was, you know, and hoping to encourage others, which it has. I've gotten plenty of DMS from people said, Yeah, I love I left, I'm deconstructing I'm dealing with the same thing. But I'm just either someone to be shunned or someone to be one to them. And I hate that because I actively tried to not be that way for so long. In the evangelical church, I didn't want I wanted to see people for who they were, I didn't want to see people as a prize to be won. I didn't want to close the deal to get to say a prayer to except to use in their heart. That's why I think my youth groups were filled with such a variety of teenagers because they just felt welcomed and valued. And that's what I wanted. My accidentals, like if they choose, you know, if I'm really gonna stick my theology at the time very, somewhat Calvinistic. If Jesus so chooses to impress on the heart Hill, when I when that was just my attitude, I'm just gonna love people for who they are, and let Jesus do what Jesus does, which I think actually served me in realizing like, oh, wow, I'm missing a whole lot here. I'm missing a whole lot different experiences of my lived experiences, you know, straight cisgendered, white, you know, Protestant, Pastor, kid, a Protestant pastor, kids male privileged, is totally different from what all these kids are experiencing is, you know, they're coming to youth group and their parents, you know, have kicked them out of the house, because they came out, they're dealing with gender issues, they're dealing with, you know, economic issues, you know, mom can't pay the rent and things like that, you know, dad left. I'm like, wow, the eyes were just open to so many different experiences. And yeah, I just, it's eye opening. And it was very, I don't know, it's been it's been a journey. Yeah.

Arline 33:03
Do you have advice for people who are like, I need all in wonder, and I need I want that the feeling that I used to have in church like, not, how did you get that in nature? Because then you're just like, trying to make nature do a thing for you. But like, how do people get started just like, being free like that? I guess?

Andy Neal 33:21
Therapy? I mean, Oh,

Arline 33:24
nice. Yes, no, no, please, therapy? Yes.

Andy Neal 33:27
I I am a huge advocate for mental health and huge part of my platform. I had to really kind of look at myself. And therapy, forced me to do that. And a good therapist is not going to give you the answers. A good therapist is going to ask you the right questions about yourself and going to therapy, you know, in dealing with these questions of, you know, existential dread and, you know, dealing with questions of having to forgive myself for things I said and preach from the pulpit that weren't just wrong and horrendous and homophobic and chauvinistic, and borderline racists, if not full on race, like it's just like, oh my god, I used to see these things. I used to believe these things. Or even when times where I didn't necessarily believe them as I was slowly deconstructing, which was a slow process. I would say I'm just to make the church happy because like, Oh, I know that this line is a crowd pleaser. I'll say that and everybody will, you know, I'll preach on hell. And even though I was really kind of on the fence about what hell was in this and half the time, I'll preach on it. And I'll get a lot of amens and whoops and hollers and I did just because I want to keep my job, you know. And so therapy really was helpful in finding that, you know, the outdoors may not be that thing for you. It could be you know, another aspect for me is creativity, you know, going out, you know, movies, film cinema, it's a huge part storytelling that could be what it is for you that's kind of secondary for me and I've definitely my username on online as Andy films and hikes for a reason. I love those two things. So but really discovering who you are who, you know, you peel back, you know, all the religion, all those old experiences, what's left, and then you got to rebuild that. That's why the term deconstructing has been has been termed your, your deconstructing your faith, and who am I and what is it, I believe, and then you can begin to build that back up, you know, whatever that looks like for you.

Arline 35:33
Yeah, getting to do this, interviewing people hearing people's stories, like, it's amazing how people find meaning and purpose and love and all in wandering community. Like all the things that the Church teaches us, they have cornered the market, this is where you get these things. And then people leave. And they're like, actually, yeah, it takes some work to find some of these things, but like, actually, it's just people helping and loving other people and creating the spaces to find these things and, and nature. Oof, yes. I don't know. I guess I was just trying to say that, like, it's beautiful. Seeing how many different ways people are able to find all the things that we were once told, you can only find this in church. Yeah.

Andy Neal 36:16
And the church doesn't have a monopoly on truth. The church doesn't have a monopoly on community or big life changing experiences, but they'd like to, from my experience, that's what they told me. I I've, in deconstructing I definitely I visited some more liberal churches, some Universalist, Unitarian, and some UCC churches, which were great in the sense that there were there were Christians who, you know, they they did the traditional Christian things, you know, Sung hymns to the stuff, but then like to hear like the pastor from the pulpit. Say, Yeah, this part of the story, David, you know, when David best she got Bathsheba, you know, the Bible doesn't address the fact that best David was basically a murderer and a rapist, and he was actually kind of a bad guy. And he probably had homosexual relationships, too. And this is all stuff that they don't teach you. And we need to look at this for what it is. And realize that, you know, David wasn't perfect. He wasn't the we say he's a man after God's own heart. And just things I never heard like, what David was probably gateway, you're talking about, Jonathan, wait, what about but he had to do that with Bathsheba? And what is this all this like, wow, like, and just hear people say I believe in the Bible, but the Bible is inerrant. Like, okay, and use like literary criticism and things like that. Look at the Bible critically in the time it was written and who wrote it, and that the person we even like, Did Moses really write the Torah? No, probably not. It was mostly even real, we don't know. And just like to hear those things like, oh my gosh, and you know, for me, I can't be you know, liberal UCC Christian just because there's just so much triggering stuff in there. And for me, I was taught for so long, the Bible is inerrant. And then to go to a point where I'm like, this is true, like, these concepts are true, but this isn't true. The Bible says, you know, homosexuality is an abomination, but not really are things like that. I just can't, I can't split those hairs. So for me, it was just like, I can't do it. You guys are awesome. I love that you're loving people. I love that like church, I was going to for a few months, you know, they're they're marching in the Pride Parade. This is great. I love that you're doing this. I love that you're, there's moms out there since I'm a church mom, who has a gay son and I'm wanting to give you a hug. If your mom's stuff like that, like that's great. I love what you're doing. I just can't do because it's just, it's too difficult for me to make those theological leaps and to be constantly triggered. You know, they'll they'll be singing hymns and hymns. I know, but they changed the words which is great, but still, for me, that him old rugged cross, and you've changed the lyrics. It's still it's, it means something else to me. There's other there's time there's there's times where they did invitationals and you'll walk down the aisles and repentance things, and myself about church really saying that song and I'm like you a bad stuff. Can't do it. Yeah, that's a whole other tangent. Sorry.

Arline 39:12
No, that's a great tangent. Because, you know, lots of people are still in the church. Lots of people are still like, like, there's Tim Whitaker of the new evangelicals. They're still marches but you know, these different people who are like trying to help white evangelicalism stop being the most terrible thing that it is, you know, like trying to help one of my best friend's very liberal church, they they were in the Pride Parade, they had a booth at the festival. They are trying to make their religion as kind and loving and good and like all the things as possible. I'm with you though. I'm I'm all the way to the point where I really don't think they're gods and goddesses like I don't think any of that stuff is real. However, unlike if you're if you're doing that, that's fabulous. I can't I got tired of being the being the light A person who had to decide whether this in the Bible was true, or is it an allegory or I was just like I can't and either you take all of it or it just, it just got to be too much. So I would very much understand that feeling of like, especially like you talked about literary criticism, like, okay, it's a poem, but that that poem in Psalms was the reason I was pro life and pro like birthday content, or like life at conception for so long. And I'm like, Okay, I can't I can't do this anymore.

Is there anything that you wanted to talk about that I haven't asked? Like you? You did fantastic with your story. And I'm like, what else do we have?

Andy Neal 40:43
I think, for me, I want to touch on just being the slow process of me, converting, not converting D converting whatever you want to call it. It was, it was so gradual that I didn't even see it was happening. And it started. Before I was even like, a full time at a church. I was in Las Vegas. And I was working part time at a church as a children's pastor. And this was back in 2000. I want to say five, very much for the Lord. But I was also working part time at Starbucks, because I needed health insurance. And I remember I was close, I was closing the store with another two other Starbucks employees, one of them had I had a car. Other one had a car and the supervisor didn't have a car and he was going to take the bus home. It was raining in Las Vegas, which doesn't happen. It was pouring. And it was probably like, it was probably late winter. And he's about to get on the bus. And I'm like, dude, I'll take you home. Sweet name was Jamar. And he knew I was a children's pastor, and he was an openly, openly gay black dude. And, you know, at this point, I'm just like, I'm gonna love him to Jesus, you know, and he'll, he'll turn upon, he'll turn away from his gateways and all this crap, you know, that trying to be, you know, a liberal Christian, you know, like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna engage with the gay community and they're gonna, they're gonna see their ways and he's just gonna love women, you know, stupid stuff. And I remember we're driving and he said, Hey, can you see my Carl's Jr? Real quick, like, get some dinner, broke into my apartment. His apartment was not in a great part of town. I'm like, Hey, can you take the bus here everyday, please take the bus before I had a car. Like that's like an hour and a half to our bus. Right? You know, one way every day is like, yeah, man. Okay, that sucks, dude. So we get to the parking lot. It's raining. He's like, hey, you know, Andy, I used to be like you. And like, we couldn't be any different. This is a black dude who lives in, you know? Not so good part of town. He's gay. Like, we couldn't be any more different. And I'm like, What do you mean? He's like, so I wanted to be a pastor. For a long time. I'm like, wait, what? He's like, Yeah, I grew up in the black church. I grew up in church. I was like an intern. For a pastor. He was training me up. I was learning all kinds of stuff. But I was dealing with what I call a time you know, same sex attraction. That's what he called it the time. Yeah, that was the only thing so extraction. And, you know, I tried everything. I read all the books, I tried to pray it away, and it wouldn't go away. So I went to my pastor, and his pastor, essentially, shunned him said you are an abomination. You are not allowed here. His family shunned him, said, No, we only party you come back when you're not gay anymore. And he's like, I so badly just wanting to serve God serve Jesus. I wanted to do this. But I couldn't because of who I was. And for the first time in my life, I realized oh my gosh, like, he's not he's not choosing to be gay, or he's doesn't need to just repressed you know, same sex attraction. Like this is a part of who he is. And you saw the, the tears in his eyes and like, I was like, Oh my gosh, and from that point forward, it was just this. Okay, I need to keep more of an open mind about things. And slow like, I'm seeing things for other perspectives. You know, when the church champions like bathroom bills and stuff like that, I'm like, is that really the best thing we like? Should we be worrying about that? Like, and so much of my my deconstruction, I take back to that that car ride in Las Vegas with Jamar and just and just to see see humanity in someone's face, who wanted to be a part of the church who wanted to serve God, but was told you are an abomination. And that really set me on a path, you know, for the next you know, 15 years of really kind of looking at my, my faith and the way I treated people very critically and realizing, okay, the Bible says this, but practically that doesn't work out. Are these two these two things the Bible as much as you try with hermeneutics and other things to make them work together, they just don't. I'm putting one on one together and I keep getting three and that doesn't work. That can't be true. And it was that point in my life where, you know, I'm learning I'm growing and I'm reading start reading, you know, more liberal Christians like, oh my gosh, I got a Rob Bell book people are freaking out like crazy. Yeah, back on, you know, after Rob Bell said there was no hell and everybody through it burned his books. And just that that path I was on, you know, to where it's like, you know, I I voted for Obama, like the first time he ran, didn't tell anybody on the download. Second time, I voted for him in that I had posted online after he clearly one on my Facebook page I posted, you know, all people, my church, follow me, said, You know, it doesn't matter who the president is, you know, Jesus is still king basically saying, You guys quit it, don't worry about it. The church was the church was angry, because they thought that was a blatant like, he did he vote for Obama. So I wasn't, I was in my pastor's office for two hours, the day after the election, him trying to get me to say who I voted for it, I wouldn't say it. And a few weeks prior Well, he was out of town I had actually preached, I had actually preached about, you know, us loving the community and loving others and showing love to everyone. And I had said a statement in that sermon, I'm all about social justice. Meaning that you know, we need to clothe the naked for you the hung up stuff that Jesus in the gospels clearly say you're supposed to do. These are good things. Yeah, I use that word, social justice. And the deacons were up in arms, like, so you voted for Obama, and he's all about, you know, social justice. And I tried to explain what that meant. And, you know, and slowly this, that reaction I got, and then, you know, I go to the church, you know, back in Oregon, and it's like, you know, oh, you know, skinny jeans, tattoos, we accept everybody, except my children who have adopted from foster care who have been abused in every way possible for coming into our home. They have these mental health issues, which we're still dealing with today are still trying to get them treatment for. And they're saying we need to pray it away. And slowly, it was a slow, slow process of, and then I'll just, you know, crap hit the fan eventually. And then I was like, I'm out. I can't do this anymore. I say all that is to say, you know, it's, it's, it really is a process. Because I was in that community. And there was so much trauma bonding for me with the church, because that's what got me through a very traumatic childhood, that I had to really see for what it was. And that's not to say, you know, I always tell people, I'm never going to down on you for your deeply held spiritual beliefs. I am not going to tolerate if those deeply held spiritual beliefs impede on the rights or humanity of somebody else. And that's where I draw the line like, No, it's not gonna happen. You believe in Jesus. Great. You believe in the literal resurrection. You believe the Bible is in Aaron. Great. Don't put that on me or anyone else? Yes.

Arline 48:20
David, is the main host. He just talks about like its death by 1000 cuts. Like there's rarely in a story where it's like, here, sometimes there's this big thing that happens, and you're like, I'm done. But usually you look back and you're like, there's a little bit here, a little bit here a little bit here. And yeah, it's slowly just, people have often said, they just came to realize, I don't think I believe this stuff anymore. And if it flies in the face with an I don't know, if I, you may have had this where people are like, you set out to leave? And it's like, no, like, I was just either living life or trying to make this work for me. And then all of a sudden, I'm like, actually, this isn't working for me.

Andy Neal 49:05
Yeah, I've had the same thing happened where I people say, Oh, Andy left to pursue a career in your teen ministry because he was lured away by the Civil War. You know, he loved to go back to school and he went to Southern here, Southern Oregon University is seen as like Satan. You know, he got he got, you know, he went to a Bible college, but then he went to a liberal atheist college and then he got pulled away that way or now because, you know, I'm a full time influencer, and he just wants fame and fortune. And, you know, he's was lured away by the things of social media and things of this world. And I'm like, That which would make excuses I mean, no, you know, it was, it was death by 1000 cuts. It was a slow, just like I can't you get the point. You're like, I just, I just, I just don't believe this anymore. And that was a strange realization being being at being at Southern Oregon University being in a film class where I am in a group of, you know, students, you know, some of my first interactions with the trans community was at Southern Oregon University, I had never had interactions with having people in my group were making fun together who are trans, who are LGBTQ who are black, who are people I just I just didn't normally rub shoulders with and having a great time doing it. And I just realized, like, I'm not a Christian. Like, it just this realization is like sitting in this group, and we're filming stuff, and I'm just looking around, I'm like, I'm not a Christian. Like I wouldn't. It wasn't it wasn't this grand, huge theological realization. This was like, Yep, I, I can't do it. And this isn't me. It's just can't be true. And you know, I know, the theologian, and we haven't gone to Bible College. I'm always trying to figure out more things. And I'm reading things and discovering more things like oh, yeah, this is where this lineup. And I think the biggest thing for me was the realization that if Jesus, you know, Jesus had Jesus's death had enough power to save me, but doesn't have the power to save everybody. Like, that doesn't work for me, like, if Jesus, if Jesus can, Jesus's death, blood and Resurrection can save me. And I can choose to reject that. That means I have more power than Jesus, if that makes any sense. It's like, that doesn't compute. Like, or just like, if you like, if Jesus, Jesus is all powerful, and his death is Endo. Why could Why couldn't he just saved me? I'm choosing to reject that. So. And then it's gonna count things about freewill. And I'm like, it was just like, no, this doesn't work. And I'm getting off on a tangent here.

Arline 51:49
Well, I mean, it takes so many like mental gymnastics to Yes, all of the things work. And it's just like, at some point, it's like, one of the women who've been on the podcast before. She's in our Facebook group, and she said, I was Calvinists. Apparently, God never chose to save me. So now I'm just gonna, you know, like, I don't have a choice in this. Like, I'll just continue with that. When people asked, he's like, Well, there's nothing I can do about it.

Andy Neal 52:14
Yeah. Yeah. Was Calvinists really, truly aren't Calvinists? in and of themselves? They are. It's yeah. Oh, so was marked down for a while. So which is also also part of my, when he went down with the whole William Wallace a second thing that was also part of my deconstruction, like, Oh, this guy idolized who had been to the Axway nines conferences and like, oh, gosh, that's not very Christian. You know, he's in Seattle. We were thinking like, Oh, he's more of a liberal Christian. No, he wasn't. He was the ESV, toting, you know, hellfire and brimstone guy who's still preaching though. And Scottsdale. Great.

Arline 52:55
Yep. Yeah, my little feminist heart starts the my blood starts to boil, because I just think about the pastors who can do pretty much anything and they'll just find a different pastor. They'll just go somewhere else, and they will get hired again.

Andy Neal 53:09
That's one of those instances, I wish I would have listened to my wife because I was going to be a church planter next 29. And my wife went to the pastor's wife thing, and she's like, This isn't good. And I'm like, Oh, you just need to learn to be, I'll set an ass. Listen to those other pastors wives and, and be more submissive, and this and that, which, you know, my wife and I, we've never had a traditional gender role relationship she's always taken. She's always taken more than more male traditional role in our marriage and relationship and our parenting and I've always taken more of the female traditional role in our marriage, parenting relationship. It's just how it's worked for us. And that's how our attitudes are, you know, we did like the love and respect marriage conference thing and say, No, I actually require more love and she requires more respect. This doesn't work like this gender doesn't compete with us. So yeah.

Arline 53:57
Well, yes, love and respect is a book we will but we will use that as a segue into Do you have any not that recommendations that have been helpful to you and your deconstruction, books, podcasts, YouTube, anything?

Andy Neal 54:14
Gosh, there really it's been a bit of a struggle, I've only found one book, there's been so many just different resources and things that I've turned to and looked at but I find myself going down a rabbit hole because the algorithms are going at this up just watching getting myself more depressed and getting myself more anxious and angry. I just I just don't want to I don't want to I don't want to be the angry even ex angelical I don't want to be that guy. And I understand that for so many people that is a stage you have to go through it's a stage of grieving you're gonna be a I was that guy for a long time. And that's fine. I just don't want to be anymore cuz I didn't like who I was becoming. But one book I got to write here. This is why A hiker friend of mine has hiked the Pacific Crest Trail. I hope I was wrong about trail damnation, a true memoir. Tim Mathis is a friend of mine, hiker. He's also written a book about hiking the dirt bags guide to the life, eternal truth. Riker trash, ski, bums and vagabonds, this has been very helpful just telling his story as another outdoors person. Yeah, it's been it's been great. He's been on my podcast, the hacker podcast, which is now the venture is out there podcast. And we just taught we Co Co misery about our experiences in the evangelical world. And that has been been super, super helpful. But yeah, there hasn't, you know, I've listened to a lot of other podcasts and other things. And really, you know, the most, the most help, this is gonna sound so weird, the most helpful piece of media and my deconstruction construction, has actually been the movie version of Donald Miller's book, Blue Like Jazz.

Arline 56:03
I didn't know there was a movie. I knew the book. But it was off limits because I was a good Calvinists and didn't see those crazy liberals.

Andy Neal 56:10
Yes, he talked about Mark Driscoll, the cussing pastor and all that, but there was a movie, which was taped, and it talks about how really how Donald came from a, you know, Southern Baptist, Texas upbringing, and he goes up to Portland, Oregon, goes to our liberal school, after suffering some trauma from his church, and the process of deconstruction and kind of kind of leaves you hanging whether or not he's really a Christian at the end or not. But just for me, that piece of media does seem that and you know, from my own experience, leaving Southern Baptist, you know, yeah, sure, some more little liberal trips going to Oregon, it was very helpful to seeing this the struggle on the in the, the existential dread, and I go back to that movie a lot. I don't know why I just I find comfort in it. And I relate a lot with that story. The movie has changed a lot from the book, the book isn't, it's really a series of blue light, as is really a series of essays, whereas the book is the books really series of essays, whereas the movie is more of one continual memoir or narrative, so that he takes from those a lot, a lot of liberties are taken. But yeah, that piece, I don't know what it is. And this is hard to find, I actually ended up buying a copy just because it's really hard to find now on streaming or anything else, but and I wouldn't endorse Donald Miller as an author or person at this point in my life, based on what I've seen from him online. Also, there's another another person, who I've just, even though, can be very problematic, Joshua Harris. And when he posts online, he's one of the few like, ex Christians I follow. Back in my very active Twitter days, we actually had some dialogue. He started following me for a while. And even though he's done some pretty problematic things, you know, about trying to monetize deconstructing, like, if you're here. But just think, seeing this person who I held on a pedestal at age 19 when he was only like, 21. And you hear a story, it's like he was, he was thrust into this, and not minimizing the responsibility he needs to take for his own actions, but just seeing what he went through a huge grand scale. I'd seen him speak probably a dozen times. He was a Southern Baptist darling. And, you know, he's doing his thing now trying to, you know, figure out, you know, him and his wife separated amicably. And he just tried to ease up in Canada trying to do his thing, the thing that like, wow, someone like him, who I held on this pedestal, who I based my entire pre marriage relationship with my wife upon his teachings. And he couldn't do it. It just gives me comfort. A lot. And I'm not saying like both Donald Miller and Joshua Harris, there's some problematic things. Yeah, there's there's definitely trigger warning there and other things, but just I relate a lot of ways, knowing these guys, these champions of evangelicalism, they fell hard in the eyes of the church, and makes me feel like wow, they really don't have it figured out. And that gives me comfort, if that makes any sense.

Arline 59:38
No, it does. There's some times that I'm like, I would love to just sit down with Beth Moore, Jen Hatmaker just different women who've just been like, you know, butchered all over the place, and just be like, how are you doing? What's going on? Like, you know, like, how are you? What's life like these days, you know, so I get it.

Andy Neal 59:58
That's more he's one of the nicest people you ever meet. You've met Beth Moore. Oh, I'm jealous. We were I was at a conference and we are Turfan got stuck in the mud after a rainstorm, bunch of a slug and she came out there and start talking. How can I help you all? The nicest person I literally have ever met. Like, and yeah, I've watched has been through what she's had to go through. I'm like, wow, that's uh, you know, this was back in like 2003. But it was hard to find me. Follow me on Instagram or Tiktok at Andy films and hikes or on YouTube at any function hikes, mostly outdoor, and body confidence content I do occasionally post about. Well, I'm in the mental state to do a post about my journey and faith, I try to be very careful about it. Because it invites a lot of a lot of conflict and invites, a lot of people just want to argue if I turn the comments off on those kinds of posts, the DMS are even more so. So I'm just like, yeah. My hope is with this particular podcast that I can share my story and be like, because I get asked all the time. Oh, you know, watch. Tell me your story. I'd like to hear you. Listen, listen to this. And you can hear my story. Yeah. And yeah, that's the best way to find me. Instagram, Tik Tok or YouTube at Auntie films and hikes.

Arline 1:01:15
Yay. Well, Andy, thank you so much for being on the podcast. I really enjoyed this. This was wonderful.

Andy Neal 1:01:20
Thank you for having me.

Arline 1:01:28
My final thoughts on the episode. I've been following Andy. Since I think since I got back on Instagram, like he just popped up in my reels. It was his going for stupid hike for my stupid mental health reel. And it was just fantastic. And his body positivity, his anti diet, culture stuff, like all these different things, just getting out in nature. And nature's for everyone. Like all these things. I was like, Wow, this all this resonates with my little my little heart. And then to know, where he's had to come from, to get to where he is now, in terms of loving himself, seeing nature and being able to just have the all and wonder and that whatever that experience is that you get whenever you're out in nature when you're like he said, when you're around something that's so much bigger than yourself. You don't have to go into the supernatural world to find it. Like it's really, it's right here on this planet. Oh, I just love it. I just love it all. One of the things that stood out to me, is y'all, us in the x, then Jellicle X religious world. We've got to have our feelings, because that's reality. We've got to like go through whatever parts of that, I guess stages of grief that we need to whenever we've lost something. We've got to have the feelings, yes. But we cannot be like a toxic community where people can't come and where it's just anger and meanness, anger and meanness. I'm very thankful for the Facebook group. Because it is it isn't like that. But yeah, there's a lot of just anger at the church. And when you find your people online to be angry with it can it can keep going, it can escalate. But yeah, we can't be that because not everybody needs that. We've got to figure out how to deal with our junk and make space for anger. Because yes, we have to have it. But I guess not just sit there and stew. Andy, I'm so glad that you're You're out. You're finding finding all the things that you needed to find you're able to find it in nature and your life now. It's fabulous. Y'all like getting out of religion. They told us all that they told us that these things can only be found in religion. It's not true. Just flat out not true. Community, love, solid relationships, all wonder, like all of these things. All of these things can be found outside of religion, history.

David Ames 1:04:11
The second is a great start of the week, inspired by Andy is accepting your body. Within the Christian bubble, the idea of the flesh being evil, I think extends to the rejection of our bodies, whichever shape, size, or form it takes. A part of secular grace is accepting oneself and that includes our humanity, as well as our physicality who we are embodied. And what is inspiring about Andy's story is not being limited by our bodies, but experiencing nature being outdoors. Until next time, my name is David and I am trying to be the graceful atheist. Join me and be graceful human beings. The beat is called waves by MCI beats. If you want to get in touch with me to be a guest on the show, email me at graceful atheist@gmail.com. For blog posts, quotes, recommendations and full episode transcripts head over to graceful atheists.com. This graceful atheist podcast part of the atheists United studios Podcast Network

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Natalie: Pentecostal to Mormon to Atheist

Atheism, Autonomy, Deconstruction, Deconversion, ExVangelical, LGBTQ+, Mormonism, Podcast

Natalie from New Zealand tells Arlene here story. She grew up Pentecostal participating in church. In her young adulthood she converted to Mormonism.

She saw that as woman her role was limited and was finding it difficult to accept the church’s perspective on LGBQT issues.

Eventually Natalie deconverted. She is thankful for her kids’ sake who later came out as queer. Natalie now finds time in nature and the forest life giving.

Links

Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/exevangelicalnz

Interact

Join the Deconversion Anonymous Facebook group!

Graceful Atheist Podcast Merch!
https://www.teepublic.com/user/gracefulatheistpodcast

Support the podcast
Patreon https://www.patreon.com/gracefulatheist
Paypal: paypal.me/gracefulatheist

Deconversion
https://gracefulatheist.com/2017/12/03/deconversion-how-to/

Secular Grace
https://gracefulatheist.com/2016/10/21/secular-grace/

Attribution

“Waves” track written and produced by Makaih Beats

Transcript

NOTE: This transcript is AI produced (otter.ai) and likely has many mistakes. It is provided as rough guide to the audio conversation.

David Ames 0:11
This is the graceful atheist podcast United studios Podcast Network. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome to the graceful atheist podcast. My name is David, and I'm trying to be a graceful atheist. Please consider rating and reviewing the podcast on the Apple podcast store, right the podcast on Spotify, and subscribe wherever you are listening. We have a merchandise store on T public, you can get all of your graceful atheist and secular Grace themed items there. The link will be in the show notes. If you're in the middle of doubt, deconstruction, the dark night of the soul, you do not have to do it alone. Join our private Facebook group deconversion anonymous and become a part of the community. You can find us at facebook.com/groups/deconversion Special thanks to Mike T for editing today's show. On today's show, Arline interviews our guests this week, Natalie Natalie is from New Zealand. Natalie's family was Catholic but converted to a evangelical Pentecostalism at her birth in a harrowing story that she will tell Natalie grew up then in in the Pentecostal environments and Natalie was always fascinated with various other religions and she eventually converted to Mormonism. She is now an atheist after deconstructing her faith. Here is our lien to interview.

Unknown Speaker 1:49
Natalie, welcome to the graceful atheist podcast. Hi, thank you for having me.

Arline 1:53
Yeah, you and I have just recently connected through email and this. This works out perfectly. I'm excited to hear your story. We usually begin just tell us about your religious upbringing.

Natalie 2:04
So I grew up in a home where my dad wasn't really religious. He grew up Catholic. My mom did as well. But she became a born again Christian when a couple of years before I was born. But she was really really devout. Me My, my younger years was spent in Baptist churches. And then my teenage years were in Pentecostal churches, evangelical. Yeah, those happy clappy type of churches. Yeah, and then as an adult, my husband and I were Mormons for a short little bit. And now I'm gonna Yes, yeah. So

Arline 2:48
fun journey. Okay, so yeah, you grew up, you said Baptist and Pentecostal, those were your formative years. Good experiences bad. Yes, a little bit of everything.

Natalie 3:00
A little bit of, of, of it all. So a little bit of backstory is I was born quite premature. So my mum loves to tell the story of how I medically died when I was a few days old and then rushed. Catholic priests didn't to come and baptize me. But at the time, the pope at the time was in town. And the priests wanted to go and see the pope more than he wanted to baptize a little baby. So he only did like a little blessing sprinkle type thing and went on his way. So my mum always used to talk a lot about how I was her only child that was born once she was a Christian, and I was lucky because I wasn't baptized properly into the Catholic church like my siblings were. So that kind of set the tone for my childhood. A lot like my mom took me to a lot of healing meetings. Because I was born so early. I have chronic lung disease like my lungs never developed as they should have. So yeah, I was in hospital really regularly as a kid and yeah, my mum would just take me to these healing meetings and claim that God healed me and I was the little kid that would go to Show and Tell at school and everyone else would bring a book or a toy or something. They've gone on holiday and I would bring nothing except I went to a healing meeting last night you need to believe in God so that he can save you and you can be healed if you need. That was at a really young age like eight I want to say yeah, so yeah, very not sure how to win it like my mum was was very, very A devout, like, everything was about God. Everything at home. When when Mum was around, it was very, we had to be careful what music we listened to what movies we watched, like my kids now think it's funny because I wasn't allowed to watch Mary Poppins because it had magic in it. But yeah, mum would go out and just be at home with dad and we'd watch Die Hard. And that was okay. But Mary Poppins wasn't it. So?

Arline 5:30
Yeah, that's fascinating. Yeah, I knew Christian family. I did not grow up Christian. So I missed a lot of that. Yeah, so yeah, I know, right. But as an adult, we knew Christian families in the church who could watch like, gory horror movies at Halloween, because like, Halloween wasn't weird for us. But then they wouldn't watch anything with sexual stuff. And we were like, I mean, like, is any of it super helpful, but yeah, that's Wow, that's fascinating. So diehard at Christmas or just whenever because, you know, that's a big thing. Whenever that hurts Christmas, whenever, okay, just carried that wanted

Natalie 6:05
to watch it. It was over. I love it.

Arline 6:17
So then high school, you said as an adult, you guys were Mormon. Because we were taught, you know, Mormons are like a cult. So how do you

Natalie 6:24
guys jump to that? So as a teenager, I Yeah. So like, grew up in Baptist churches like as a child. My dad left my mom and we moved to city. And that's when we got heavily involved in Pentecostal churches. So I was a youth group leader. I was a Sunday school, like a children's church leader at, I think I was 11. That really is just a child myself. I'm not sure why they made me a leader. But that's alright. So I was super like, five, six days a week at church doing stuff. At 16, I felt like God was telling me to go on a missions trip. Except I had left school, because I wanted to devote more of my time to the church. So other sports 16 was volunteering, like not being paid at all. Never. Yeah, no. I mean, why would they write? And, yeah, my mum had gone to this conference. And I went along, but purely because the conference was at the beach, and I wanted to go to the beach. Thought that was more fun than going home at 16. And but there were these woman there who had come from Namibia, which is it's just up from South Africa a little bit. And they ran a couple of homes like for, there was a woman's home and a children's home. And I loved working with kids. So I was like, Okay, well, I'll come and work in the children's home. And then reality set in of I don't have the money to fly from New Zealand, to Namibia. But then, these women that ran these homes, they went and spoke to my mom, and they will I think God is leading you to go as well. You should sell your home. And you should pay for you and Natalie to come over. And so my mom did, which horrifies me as an adult now. But at 16, I was like, oh, cool, I don't have to pay for it.

Arline 8:35
Or their siblings is you said your dad had left. So like, what are the dynamics of just you and your mom dipping out and heading to a different continent?

Natalie 8:43
Yes. So I'm, so I have an older sister. She's five years older than me. So at that point, she had a family of her own. My brother is three years older than me. He was still living at home, but my mum was like you can go find somewhere else to live. Gave him a little bit of money from selling her house to like set himself up. And we just went literally within within about three months mum had sold her house. We've gotten all the vaccinations we needed to get and off we went and I need to preface that with my mum had undiagnosed bipolar. So I really truly looking back now think she was an A, as kids, we call it like a bipolar high. And as soon as we got to Namibia, she went into a low. And I didn't see her for a couple of weeks. Really. Yeah, so we did that. And that was interesting to say the least. It was a very traumatic religious experience like within 24 hours of us being there. These women were telling In the people in the homes that we were prophets, and that everything we said was directly from God. And like I just said, like my mum went into a bipolar low. So she was literally in her room. It must have been for about the first three weeks, we were there, and I was 16 sitting there going, I don't know what to do. Like, these people are making me feel special. They're treating me really well. All of that type of stuff, like it was really, really messed up and probably meets all the criteria for a cult. But I didn't have that knowledge at the time. So yeah, there was that experience. And Mum actually left the home because the people were the people who ran it, were trying to get me to stay in Namibia, by myself, like that even taken me into the immigration office. And thankfully, the immigration officer was like, um, you're only 16 Were your parents. So that didn't go ahead, thankfully. And that was a bit of a wake up call for me of like, because at that point, mom had left the home and was living with some friends that she'd made over there. So I was by myself and the situation trying to navigate it. And they used they would always tell me that God was telling them things that I should be doing. And I had, I've been taught a lot, you know, you don't question if people say that God's time or something, who are you to question that that's between them and God and, and maybe that's God giving you a bit of a nudge, a bit of direction, that type of stuff. So it was it was really, really messy. And I ended up literally escaping, like secretly packing my bag and the friends that mum had made, came and picked me up, and I'd chucked my my massive backpack into the back of this tiny car. And there was a guy there, his name was Seth, he, he was the son of the woman who ran the homes. And he was, I think he he thought he was like Jesus, like he grew his hair out. So it was really long grew the beard wore a white robe all the time. And sandals, and he was a really strange man. I laugh now at the time, it wasn't funny. But I remember him literally chasing the car telling, like yelling that we're going to hell for leaving. And we ended up back in New Zealand after that, but I didn't have anyone I could talk to about it. Because I'd gone on this missions trip. And felt so special. And like I was doing this amazing thing for God. And then it all went to I don't know if I can curse on this. You can curse Yeah, winter shamrock went to shit. And I was still involved in church and stuff when we came back to New Zealand, but it just never felt the same. Like there was a lot of a lot of questions on my end of what the heck is going on.

I came back and we moved to city at that point, both mom and I and I got involved in another Pentecostal church like like, within weeks, I was a youth leader. I was preaching. Like, there was no pause to deal with what had happened. And I, I still didn't go back to school. I still wanted to just devote my time to the church because I think that's where I found because my home life was quite unsettled. That's true. It was where I found validation. It was where I found family community. All of that. So I never wanted to say no to anything. I wanted to. Yeah, I just wanted to be there all the time. I wanted them to see, hey, I'm doing this and maybe eventually they they can pay me to do cash. I'm sure it would have been about 60 hours a week worth of work like Oh, yeah. Yeah. And keeping in mind, I was only 17 at that point. Still a baby. Like I have teenagers myself who are close to that age. And I'm just like, I'm horrified at the thought of them being in that position. But yeah, I met my husband at 17. So he was we were both youth leaders. And he was on worship team. He was the drummer so that was cool. Yeah, we got married 10 months later. Very, very quick because we were in the thick of purity culture, and it was you get married because God forbid you live together or have sex or anything like that before marriage. Yeah. And then we, we made the decision to take a year off leadership. And we spoke to our pastor about it. And we were like, look, we need to do this for our relationship. I mean, we'd only been together for 10 months, we needed to get to know each other like. But I was told that I was leading my husband astray. Because I was the one who had suggested it. Oh, wow. Oh, so to backtrack a little bit as well, at the time, I had a full time job. Because my mum had kicked me out of home. And that's a whole other story. But um, yeah, I had a full time job. But I was working 60 hours a week. And I'd gone to our senior pastor and to our youth pastor, because I was I was a youth leader, I was on the welcome team, I was on clean up, set up all of this stuff, like it was really intense. And I said, I can't work, my 50 hour job that I'm being paid for and do the amount of stuff that I'm doing. At church, like I just, I'm not stepping back entirely, but I need to just dial it down a little bit. And that just resulted in people not talking to me. And you know, they would talk to my I mean, he was my fiancee at the time, but they would, they would talk to Steve and they would happily welcome him to gatherings and stuff, like I lost friends. And that really started like, I didn't have the language for it at the time. But I'd have really bad panic attacks at church, where I'd have to go sit in my car just to try and breathe through it. And I would try getting pray for it. Because mental health wasn't a real thing. It was just you pray, and God will make it better and read your Bible a bit more, and you'll be awkward. And that just wasn't the case. So we got married, and we ended up leaving that church and we tried to do it. And as healthy away as we could we tried to make the senior pastor and just say, Look, we're going to find another space for us. Thank you for X, Y, and Zed. And then they started rumors that we were going and starting our own church. And it just it was a shit show. And we tried other churches, but I would have panic attacks, even just hearing the worship music. Because I'm not sure what Pentecostal evangelical churches listen to in America, but here it was heavily Hillsong based at the time, and yes, saying yes. Okay. I would hear it at because you know how, at church, right? Like, it's, you go in and straight away. So worship service, and you will sing songs. And then you have the preaching, they have

Arline 18:29
to prime you. Yeah, they have to prime you to be able to hear the foolishness, they're about to spit out.

Natalie 18:37
But straightaway, like within five minutes of being there, I would have a panic attack. And I'm so thankful that my husband was understanding and that we communicated as much as we could at the time, given. I think I was maybe 19 By that point. So he was what like 21, like we were babies trying to navigate all of this.

And then, we had children, young, like I was 21 when I had my eldest and then 22. And we tried going to church with them. But honestly, trying to go to church with two babies is just, I spent my whole time in the crash part. And I was like, this is doing nothing for me. I could just be doing this at home. So there were a couple of years where we we would try that then I'd have a panic attack and then be dealing with the kids and I'm like, I just want to go home. But once our kids went to kindergarten, they started making friends and their friends, parents were mostly Mormons. So that's how we got into that. So that was a very long explanation to get to

Arline 19:57
know thank you because that's a lot to have. I feel like being young parents being just married when you're still a teenager trying to navigate that, realizing that the church environment you're in when you say, Hey, this is overwhelming and too much, they're like, Oh, well, like just so that's, that's those are big parts of your story. So, Mormonism, so how to desk. I'm like, it's it's funny even now, you know, I'm an atheist I don't believe in any of this stuff. But Mormonism is like this far fetched crazy thing way over there that I don't know anything about, even though the more I do learn about these more, I guess on the fringes, versions of Christianity, they all sound very similar and have lots of the same things. So anyway, tell, tell me, yeah. Tell me about Mormonism. How'd that

Natalie 20:48
go? Yeah. So I, because my friends were Mormons, I would occasionally take the kids to events that they would have. And I missed that feeling of community. I missed that feeling of belonging. And I was, I can look back now and go, it was love bombing, really. And that's what they're taught to do. You're taught to bring people into the church. It's not, I thought they just wanted to, they just liked our company and wanted us to join it. And I don't I mean, I'm sure it was a mixture of both, but I definitely do think there was very much wanting to get brownie points for getting us into the church, essentially. But I, my friend gave me a Book of Mormon, and I started reading it. And I'm an avid reader, like, I love books. And I only got maybe 10 pages. And because this is so poorly written, I don't know if you've ever tried reading

Arline 21:48
any of it. I have not we've had a copy because we've been gifted one before, but we never I never.

Natalie 21:56
I mean, if you want to contrive, but it's not an easy read. Because it Yeah, for many reasons. But I met with some missionaries, which felt really weird, because at the time, I think I was 25. And these missionaries were 18 year old boys. And I was like you're making me really uncomfortable. I didn't understand the in that a big part of the Mormon church is modesty. And I didn't feel like I was a modest, right. I had been taught to cover my body, you know, you shouldn't be tempting anyone that type of stuff. But I was like, we're in my own home at some time. I was wearing a singlet. I didn't think anything of it. And they would just be steering inappropriately. And where we had to get some of the bishop involved where I was like, I don't want to meet with these ones. Can you send some other ones over? Which is tricky, because it's all very it's not like Pentecostal churches where anyone can go to that physical church. And Mormonism, you have wards. So if you live in a geographical area, that's the building you have to go to. And it's the same missionaries they sit to. Yeah, so it was a little bit tricky, and I feel kind of bad because they were kids themselves, but it was just open. But um, my husband is very much a free thinker and likes to question people that he not in a rude way, but that he likes to push people as well. Why do you believe that? Even though we were Christians, he would still do that. Like he? I think he found it kind of funny. But um, we met with the bishop, because so the bishop is like the pastor of the church. Yeah, yes. I'm trying to figure it. Yeah. And he was like, Natalie, I don't think you should get baptized because Steve's not on board. And I was like, I can do what I want. Like, I'm, we're not like, we don't have to do this together. And he's like, no, no, that's not okay. And now I understand the church is so patriarchal. And if you're a woman, you do what your husband says, and that really threw me so. And I try not to live through regrets, but I do regret the fact that I, I spent weeks hounding Steve, I was like, just reading, doesn't just watch this documentary watch, read this book. And he was amazing. And he read it and he was like, Look, this is obviously something he wants to do. I don't want you going to church without me. So I'll just join two. And he did it. And he was honest with the missionaries. He was honest with the bishop and he was like, Look, what did he say? He said, If I grew up believing that Jonah could be swallowed by a whale and survive And that, you know, if I can believe that then I can believe this. And I really think for him, that was the start of him going, this is a load of shit. I don't believe. I mean, he even got out and they asked him to speak at a they call it a steak meeting. So it's a bunch of not like sta K, not the meat. Okay, a steak meeting. So it's a bunch of awards get together. And it's like a big deal to be asked to speak at one of those. And they asked Steve and he got up and said this, he was like, Well, if I can believe this, why wouldn't I believe this? And there was no, God has told me since he was, and but they loved it. Oh, like, yeah, that's okay. And I was like, what? Like, they were talking about him being on track to be a bishop one day. And we'd only been members for like six months.

We went through the temple. We went through the endowment ceremony, we got sealed as a family. So my kids were at the time, I think, five and six. So they still talk about our sealing ceremony. Do you know what that is? Is it like, what happens if you didn't get married in that church? So that you have it like now? Yeah, so whatever thing Okay, yeah. So if we had actually gotten married in that church, we would have been sealed, then. And then our children would just be automatically sealed. But because because we were converts, we had to get sealed. And then our children had to come in and get sealed to us. And that meant that we could be together forever in the celestial kingdom. Because you know, how there's like three degrees of heaven. No, no, go for it. Tell us all the things. It's complicated. I feel like I'm not going to get it completely right. Because a lot of it turned out and I was like, Yeah, whatever. But it's so you've got the celestial, and I get these two mixed up. Go celestial, celestial, terrestrial. So the celestial kingdom is the one where you're closest to God. Okay, as a Mormon man, you have your own planet. And family. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So actually, a lot of that family. Even when I wasn't Mormon, I learned by watching the Book of Mormon musical.

Arline 27:39
The musical. Yes.

Natalie 27:42
Which is? It's funny, but for it's for people.

Arline 27:47
Yes. For people who don't know, it's created by the guys who did South Park. So just think how wonderful and I have not seen it. We've listened to the soundtrack 1000 times, but we've not we have not seen it yet. But anyway, continue on. Yeah.

Natalie 28:02
So yeah, we will sail together in the celestial kingdom. So the next kingdom down is for people who believe in God, but aren't Mormons or aren't sealed or haven't gone through the temple? So there's that realm. And then the third one is for people who are a good people, but don't believe in God. They're kind of at the bottom. And then hell is for apostate. So for people who leave the church, so who, who had that understanding? So how isn't really a place for like, we would like like I was taught and Christianity where if you don't accept God, then you're going to hell. They, you can not believe in God, and you still go to some form of heaven, but you won't be as close to God. But how was reserved for apostates and

Arline 29:00
people who were Mormon? Yeah, then left. Wow, that's so specific.

Natalie 29:09
It's very detailed. And I love having information. I love the intricacies of religion. But it was it was a lot. Like I remember and we had some lessons before we've gone through the temple. And I asked our friend, I was like, because a big thing in the temple is you do baptisms for the dead? So yes, I didn't know about that. Yeah, yes. So he was talking about how you can have a loved one who who isn't a member of the church, but when they die, you could do a baptism for the dead for them and in in the afterlife. They can make that choice whether or not to believe and then they can go to the celestial kingdom. But I had some family that had I thought were complete assholes. And I was like, I don't want them having that opportunity. I don't want to spend eternity with them. They are their people. And he was like, Oh, well, you know. And he actually said, if you're a duck in this life, you probably going to be a different than next life. So don't worry about it. But I was always like, there's always that possibility. Like, it just didn't make a lot of sense. But they had an answer for most things. But yeah, we we went through the temple that was a whole experience in itself was very, very elaborate. Yeah, like, being told, I had a name that was given to me that I would have to give my husband so that he could pull me into heaven. And I remember saying, I can get myself into heaven. What are you talking about? Like, that was a very foreign concept to me. And it was quite amusing. Because after our endowment, and after giving my husband my secret temple name, we've got him because he's not supposed to tell me his. I'm not supposed to know his, but that's just not how we operate. So I asked him when we got home, I was like, so what's your what's your tempo now? And he was like, I actually forgot. And he was like, I was too embarrassed to stick my hand up and ask for it again. So you don't know your name that's supposed to?

Arline 31:31
Yeah, yes. Like, well, now we understand why he is where he is. Because he forgot that name that his magical ceremony. All right. Yeah. Okay. Okay, so, so this last, how long did this last? And how did you? How did you guys get out of it? So

Natalie 31:47
we were only in the church for 18 months. So Oh, wow, you have to be a member, like a baptized member for 12 months before you can go through the temple. So we had done it very, okay, bang on that 12 months. Partly because, you know, it's like the secret club that I wanted to see what happens, I wanted to be a part of it. And then I was a part of it. And I was like, What the hell is this. But for us, it came down to, we were having to unteach at home, what our kids were learning at church, specifically around gender around being queer. Because that's a big, there are very, very defined lines for that in the church. And I'm so glad that we left and that we taught our kids love who you want, be who you are, because our eldest is non binary, and our youngest is gender fluid. And they both queer, and the damage that could have been done if we had stayed. Like, I'm just I'm so relieved that we got out when we did, because for them, there wasn't a lasting. I mean, they walk around telling us proudly that their little heathens kids have a good sense of humor, but the religious stuff that they were exposed to, hasn't affected them, which I'm so grateful for.

We then whittled our beliefs down to so we left that church. And then we said, right, examining a lot of the Bible, I don't agree with that anymore. But I still believe in God, I still felt it was important to believe in a higher being. So we want to hold our beliefs down to love the Lord your God fully mind heart and soul and love others as you love yourself, and that's how we tried to operate for a few years. And then we were out for a drive one evening and my husband said to me, he was I don't believe in God. And I panicked and expected there to be like lightning hitting our power going, you're gonna make God angry. Like let's not do this and I mean, come on. Believing in a being that's going to be angry at you for having free will and saying, Look, I don't believe this is probably not a being I want to believe in. So for me, it definitely made me think and it made me go well, I don't believe 99.9% of what's in the Bible anymore. I definitely disagree with organized religion, or just religion in general. It's not not my cup of tea. It's been nothing but damage to me, personally, and yeah, they were It was about a year of conversations back and forth. So Steve listening to your podcast listening to the Thinking Atheist, and him sending me episodes going, Hey, I think you might want to listen to this. And I was like, No, I really don't want to. That's, that's pushing it. But I did start to and I was like, Oh, this actually makes sense. This is not just me that has these doubts and these concerns, and I was able to start verbalizing what I had been thinking internally for quite a long time. Like, probably since I was about 16. And Africa. When all of that happens, I was able to talk about it and talk about the harm that religion had caused for me. And I understand it's not that way for everybody. But yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then I think it I can't even remember when it was, but just one day, I was like, Look, so it started off. I think I'm agnostic. I think there could be a possibility that God exists. And if someone could really prove to me, then sure. But now I'm just like, that's not a being I want to believe in or would ever even if someone could come to me and say, Hey, this does exist, I'd still be like, No, I'm good. Thank you. So yeah, now very proudly, an atheist and you rebel. Yeah. Yeah. So how long ago was that? Oh. About four years ago? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Just before, just before the pandemic. Yeah, so I ran four years ago. Yeah.

Arline 36:49
So what does life look like now?

Natalie 36:52
So it's, it's complicated. It's, I mean, we lost friends. When we left Pentecostal churches, we lost friends. When we became Mormons, we lost friends when we left the Mormon church, and we've lost friends since being atheist. It's quite a lonely journey. There's not many people that get it.

So that's been hard. I mean, for me, one of the biggest things was in

2020. In New Zealand, we'd gone into lockdown for I think it was about three months. And at the end of it, my father in law passed away. And it was the first time I had to deal with death. Why while being an atheist, and hearing people say, Well, we'll see him again. He's in a better place, like I've really had to sit with that uncomfortable feeling. And go, Well, I don't believe I'm going to see him again. I don't believe there is anything after this life, personally. And that was really hard to work through and to help my husband through and to help our kids through because, for me growing up, I had people that died, but it was, well, they had a relationship with God. So we'll see them again. They're in a better place there with God. I didn't have that reassurance for my kids. So we, we did things like that was just joking one night because my kids called their grandfather, grandpa. But their cousins call him pop pop. And he had originally wanted to be called that with our kids. This is an important part of the story. But I had told him I said, if you use that name, I'm gonna make fun of you because it sounds like you're passing wind. But so when he died, the cousins were talking about pop pop and stuff. And I just joked, well, you know, you can look at the stars. And if there's one that's kind of shooting by it's it's Pop Pop being powered by his guest. So our kids then develop, and it was a joke, but it was almost like a comfort to them that we can look up the stars and we can just imagine that that's Grandpa, you know, but not in essence, that we actually think he's up there. I mean, one night, we had something shot through the sky and it wasn't a plane. Turned out it was like a satellite thing, which we don't get in New Zealand. So everybody was like, What the heck is that? And my first thought was because I'd been outside putting the rubbish out and my 14 year old was was with me, and they were like, grandpa. It's like grandpa. We were joking when we told you that. But that was is a way for us to deal with that uncertainty and to provide a little bit of comfort for them. And I mean, yeah, it's that that really cemented for me though. I don't believe in God, and I'm okay with that.

For now, I've even had conversations with my mum, who is still very much a Christian, where I've told her, I don't believe in God, I don't believe in prayer. And she's been horrified and being like, well, how can you live your life without that, and I'm like, I can live my life quite happily, I feel more peace. Now, without that constant thinking of. If I swear, I'm gonna go to hell, or God's going to be angry with me, and I'm gonna have to repent. Or nevermind those, the bigger things that they tell you about that, you know, are going to affect your life. Like I can just, I can be myself, I can think for myself like I've really had to. But because my husband and I got married so young, and because we were in such a patriarchal religion, there were things even like, I was taught to vote for who my husband was voting for. Yeah. So at the moment in New Zealand, it's election time. And having discussions with my kids about the deadline might not be voting for the same people. And that's okay. But for me, that's still a bit of a novelty. And that there wasn't anything that my husband and forced that was just what I was taught through different mediums, whether from the pulpit or from books or that type of stuff. I, I've really had to develop an opinion. And which I find really hard because my people, please, and I don't want to upset anyone, but my opinions don't have to align with my husband's. I mean, obviously, they're to be in a healthy relationship. For us, there are just foundational things that we need to agree on. But there are other things where I'm like, I even like picking bedding 15 years ago, I would have just been like, Oh, will you choose because you need to be comfortable, because this is your space as well, which is somewhat understand. But it meant I ended up hating all the furniture, we had all the all the bedding, all that type of stuff. And now I'm like, give me all the stuff that I like. And I've found a joy in decorating. How I like and obviously there are compromises because it's more than just me living in our home. But my opinion matters, too. Yeah, absolutely. And I really don't mean that in. Like that was never anything my husband said to me that he actually didn't grow up knowing that. And I think that is the differences between being an assigned female at birth in this particular religion and being an assigned male at birth. It's just very different. Very different experiences. And we've had to work through that a lot. Yeah, but yeah, I definitely feel a lot more. A lot more peace now a lot more. I'm comfortable within myself. And obviously that still work in progress. But yeah, like I find a lot of comfort and peace and being out in nature. We go hiking a lot. And like we're really lucky here in New Zealand, we we have bush tracks, like five minutes away from our house type of thing. But for all of us, I don't know if you've heard of like forest bathing. And I don't mean that in the sense that we go into the forest and have a bath.

Arline 44:12
No, no, no, no, like just being in like fully full immersion into the forest. Yeah. Just

Natalie 44:18
just being able to, I guess disconnect from the busyness of life and just breathe, and just be and maybe it's because we're focusing so much on just trying to breathe climbing up a mountain or whatever it might be. But it's, it's really good for us. We all notice. As soon as we get into the forest, we're all much calmer. We're much happier. And so that's been really good and a good coping strategy for us to replace things like prayer or hopping on worship music or whatever it would have been at that time.

Arline 45:07
So how do you find meaning? Like? What are the things that make your life meaningful now that you don't have religion?

Natalie 45:14
That's a tricky question. How do I find meaning? Or G you?

Arline 45:20
Like, for me, the things that used to that I used to struggle thinking they were idols, like my family, my personal time, novels, like the things I love. Those things don't necessarily give me meaning. But those are the things now that I can just love without feeling like they're vying for my worship. Because I used to get all worried that I was worshiping my family, worshiping my kids worshiping myself instead of like, just letting those things

Natalie 45:46
be what they are. Yeah, yeah, so probably much the same. I guess, I I've had to learn how to relax and rest, because that was not okay. That was. I mean, when you're doing stuff five or six days a week for church and being made to feel bad, if you're not there, that's been a really hard thing for both my husband and I to learn to just sit our butts down and just enjoy relaxing, I'm still not very good at it. But I want to set that example for my kids. That's important for your mental, physical and emotional well being to sometimes just relax, you don't have to actively be doing stuff all the time. I find a lot of meaning. And I probably annoy our family and friends. By I talk a lot about social issues. Who so because our kids queer. And we've had to have a lot of difficult conversations with family and with friends, and it's weeded a lot of them out. That's I just I have no time or patience for people that don't accept my kids for who they are. But also being like, this isn't just our kids. It's Yes, you know, you need to be loving and accepting of everyone. Things like talking about race, because we are a mixed race family. Obviously, I'm a Paki house. So I'm New Zealand, European, but my husband is Malaysian. And our kids are Malaysian and Sorry, I keep I keep forgetting that not everyone knows to do with so go to us. And then I'm like. Yeah, so just talking about hate that that matters. And yes, we are a family where we talk a lot about politics. We talk a lot about different religions. I love reading about different religions and cults. And sometimes I think they must be really weird to other people. That I know. So I'm, I haven't been diagnosed yet, but I'm feeling I'm 99% Certain I'm autistic. So I get hyper focused on things. And I'm partly saying that because our youngest has been diagnosed with autism, and a lot of those traits that they had, I just thought were things that weren't for me. And now I'm going Oh, that makes sense. Where I had like a year or two, where I just devoured every book I could about Scientology which I understand to some people would be really, really weird. But I loved learning about it. I loved I learned a ton about the Amish community. About, like, when I was a Christian, it was learning about Mormonism. Which is weird considering I became a woman, but I wanted to know all about it. It's fascinated me I find a lot of enjoyment and learning. And I think part of that is because because I left school, to devote all my time to the church. I didn't leave because of a lack of intelligence I left because of that. What's the word? fervent devotion to church? Yeah, and I'm currently in the process of applying to go to university, which feels really scary. But I want to do that because I've been a stay at home mom for 15 years, and that's what our family has needed given. There are some higher needs there but I just I love learning like the amount of books we've got. I just said that ridiculous and we live in a tiny house. Um, yeah, I don't know. I think that's probably the place where I found a lot of meaning for me outside of religion is educating myself about social justice issues and learning about the world outside of Christianity. Because I wasn't allowed to for a long time that wasn't okay. It wasn't you should be off the world but not in the world, that type of stuff. Yeah,

Arline 50:28
I am self diagnose inattentive, ADHD. And so I'm like, ooh, rambling and hyper fixation. Yes, I am. Here. Let's get it. Yeah, that's good. And for me, I'm not formally diagnosed, but it was watching my older son struggle with things I struggled with as a kid that I thought were just like, oh, this is just like a thing. And it was like, yeah, actually, this looks like inattentive ADHD. And then a friend of mine. She said, she leaned over my shoulder one day, and um, she's already HD. So she, she, she knows she was paying attention. And she said, you know, neurotypical people don't have 36 reminders on their phone for stuff they do every day. And I was like, they don't. And that was the first that was like, a year or so ago. And I was like, Oh, wow.

Natalie 51:16
Yeah.

Arline 51:26
So speaking of recommendations, books, podcasts, anything and I know, I'm sure you have plenty. So yeah. Do you have any recommendations, things that were helpful on your journey out? Or something you're just loving right now or something? Yeah, whatever you want to recommend.

Natalie 51:40
So I did read a Dan Barker book. God, the most unpleasant character in all fiction, who didn't read that was interesting. It's very. I actually read it, my husband and I read it out loud to each other. And our kids were coming in and out of the room while we were reading it. And they will have just the Bible actually say that type of stuff. And I was like, yeah. But I found that quite validating, to ask not just me that just thinks these things about the Bible. Actually, a book written about it, like that was quite eye opening. I was going to say, Richard Dawkins, but I feel a little conflicted. about recommending, just given what he has said about trans people recently, I'm, yes, I'm just,

Arline 52:39
it's like, when you're a Christian, and you realize a lot of the dead guys that you thought were super fantastic, like enslaved people, and like, harmed entire groups of people, and it was perfectly okay. And then here's this living guy who's like, here's some great information. And here's some other things that I believe in. It's like, I yeah, it gets it gets real complex, real quick. Yeah, it's

Natalie 53:03
a little murky. Like, I I found the content of some of his books helpful. But I don't know. It just it hits something. In Me, I think because my children are identify as trans. I just I mean, just like with JK Rowling, right? Yeah. My kids loved Harry Potter. We were obsessed with it. And now there's nothing Harry Potter in our house.

We ran into the same thing. Yeah, you did. Yeah. Yeah. Well, with with Harry Potter, and then yeah, that's a whole other episode discussing like whiteness in the atheist world, and misogyny in the atheist world. And like, all these things that like, they don't magically disappear. When you leave religion. They're just tweaked. And the wording might be a little bit different. But it's a de homophobia, like all the things. So go ahead. Yeah. Yeah, it just it surprised me and shocked me. And his books were ones that even our kids had started to read. So yeah, but a couple of his books have been good. But probably for me more podcasts because I can put it on and do other stuff at the same time. Like I'm not good at.

I'm good at reading fiction, and just getting immersed and lost in those books. But often with nonfiction, I have to do it in little bits. So I find podcasts for me are just better for me to get that information in because I can do it while I work out or do the dishes or whatever it might be. So your podcast has been really good to hear other people's stories. Like for me having lost a lot of that community. It feels really lonely, but then thank God for technology that we have this and I can feel somewhat can added to other people because I don't know if it's different being in like living somewhere like America where it's just a bigger country, there's more people if it's easier to connect with people who've been through similar things or have similar beliefs, because it's not easy here. Yeah. So your podcast, Mormon Stories, I actually, I haven't listened to it in a little while. But there was a period of time where I avidly listen to that because he doesn't just interview ex Mormons, he interviews, people from all religions, and I found it really educational and really helpful. And especially being in a little bit of a unique position of having grown up Pentecostal evangelical to being a Mormon for a little bit less. There's not many people that have done that. Which is good. I'm glad they haven't. But yeah, it's just a unique experience. So being able to learn about both on the same platform has been really helpful. The Thinking Atheist, really like that podcast, the deconversion therapy podcast with Bonnie and I want to say, Karen, but I don't know that's her name, my memories. But I just I find them really funny. It's a little bit more of a light hearted take sometimes Oh, listen to quite a serious one where I have to think quite hard. And then I'll listen to that one. And I can just laugh. And that's also that one's also been quite good for my kids. Like, if they're around, I can put that one on. And they can see some of the humor and what their dad and I grew up with, because sometimes we have to explain why we're reacting a certain way to something because it's because of our religious upbringing. And our kids are going what? Like, they don't understand it, which is great. Yeah, but there sometimes is that disconnect of, we're not like, we sometimes have to pause a little bit to think about something and work through quickly work through, well, hold on, why am I reacting to this this way. And then we can move through it. But we've tried our best to communicate that with our kids, but sometimes just having these podcasts on when they're around, helps them to know as not just their dad and I that have these things that we have to work through or because to them, it's they they don't get why people are transphobic and homophobic and racist, and I have to go well, when you're indoctrinated your whole life,

Arline 58:03
that it's only one way? Yeah.

Natalie 58:07
Yeah, um, I've also found just different accounts, like on Instagram, especially. Just getting those little snippets have, you know, they, they'll share a post and I can just quickly read it and then sit with it for a little bit and think about it and go, Okay, that, that makes a lot of sense. But I didn't say before it as well, though. I've actually been diagnosed with complex PTSD, and PTSD, in large part because of religious trauma. So that's been a whole other thing to navigate as well. Yeah. Yeah. Can't remember that. Probably. Sorry.

Arline 58:53
You did. You gave me books and podcasts? Yes. And Instagram accounts. Well, Natalie, thank you so much for being on the podcast. I really appreciate you telling your story.

Natalie 59:03
Thank you so much for having me. Really, really.

Arline 59:12
My final thoughts on the episode, y'all, the church will just not pay people. Volunteer work is wonderful. It's great to be involved in things. But it seems like I keep hearing on episodes like churches will just exploit their people. They will just keep using their congregation members and just completely burn them out and fill them with Bible verses about how God will renew them. And then keep burning them out. And it breaks my heart like Natalie was 11 and 12 and 16 and 17 like in leadership and would have stayed in leadership as a young married mom if they hadn't changed to a different church. Young Parents need like a whole two or three years off of having to do anything more than take care of their kids. Maybe go to work depends on that situation. But like, just trying to exist with little tiny people in your home and sleep. It breaks my heart. And it makes me angry. Thinking of how, how often this happens to people. Another thing that stood out to me is Natalie's willingness to see the things in the church that she knows is not going to work for how they're going to parent their kids. So they have little tiny kids there in the Mormon church. And there's these strict rules and roles and genders. And it's a binary, and there's no nuance. And she's like, I can't do this, I can't do this to my children, I'm not going to put them in boxes. And the freedom that her kids as teenagers now, and as they grow into adults have to just be themselves like that as a beautiful, good, wonderful gift for her kids. Even though, you know, we want our kids to understand other people's perspectives. Her kids not like having a hard time understanding why her parents are having a hard time with certain things from religion, it's probably good for them, because they haven't had to endure the trauma and the suffering. They can grow in empathy, and figure that kind of stuff out. But they didn't have to have personal experience or knowledge of some of those beliefs and practices. And that's a good thing. That's a next generation of kids growing up without religious trauma. So Natalie, thank you so much for being on the podcast. This was wonderful. I really enjoyed this conversation.

David Ames 1:01:49
The secular Grace Thought of the Week is embrace your irreverence. I was listening to a comedy podcast recently. And they were talking about how successive generations have become more irreverent. But what came out of that was the ability to have a sense of humor about the religious contexts in which they grew up. Now that you have deconstructed, maybe D converted, you have more space from the religious context you grew up in, and you can see the comedy of it all. irreverence no longer has eternal consequences. So embrace your irreverence. Until next time, my name is David, and I am trying to be the graceful atheist. Join me and be graceful. The beat is called waves by MCI beats. If you want to get in touch with me to be a guest on the show, email me at graceful atheist@gmail.com for blog posts, quotes, recommendations and full episode transcripts head over to graceful atheists.com. This graceful atheist podcast the atheists United studios Podcast Network

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Jeff: Deconstruction of a Southern Baptist Minister

Agnosticism, Autonomy, Deconstruction, ExVangelical, High Demand Religious Group, Podcast, Quiver Full

Jeff grew up in his words “a very religious household.” He attended a large Southern Baptist church.

In college he fell in love with the seriousness of Calvinism after reading John Piper’s Desiring God. He left seminary early to become a minster because he felt time pressure to be “on mission” for God.

After three pastors he knew died by suicide in one year, Jeff began deconstructing his faith.

Today, he is agnostic and finds therapy and mindfulness helpful in his life.

Links

Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/Backwoodspiper

Recommendations

Jon Kabat-Zinn

Mary Oliver

A Book of Luminous Things

Quotes

After a lifetime of having all the right answers, now I don’t even know what the questions are.

[You are told] this is your position on [multiple things]. Everything was given to you. This is what you believe.

For the first time, I was really able to sit down and think: What do I value?

Interact

Join the Deconversion Anonymous Facebook group!

Graceful Atheist Podcast Merch!
https://www.teepublic.com/user/gracefulatheistpodcast

Support the podcast
Patreon https://www.patreon.com/gracefulatheist
Paypal: paypal.me/gracefulatheist

Deconversion
https://gracefulatheist.com/2017/12/03/deconversion-how-to/

Secular Grace
https://gracefulatheist.com/2016/10/21/secular-grace/

Attribution

“Waves” track written and produced by Makaih Beats

Transcript

NOTE: This transcript is AI produced (otter.ai) and likely has many mistakes. It is provided as rough guide to the audio conversation.

David Ames 0:11
This is the graceful atheist podcast United studios Podcast Network. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome to the graceful atheists podcast. My name is David, and I am trying to be the graceful atheist. Please consider rating and reviewing the podcast on Apple podcast store, rate the podcast on Spotify, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. If you're in the middle of doubt, deconstruction, the dark night of the soul, you do not have to do it alone. Join our private Facebook group deconversion anonymous and become a part of the community. You can find us at facebook.com/groups/deconversion Check out our merch store on T public you can get all of your graceful atheist and secular Grace themed items. You can find the link in the show notes. Special thanks to Mike T for editing today's show.

Jeff 1:12
On today's show, our Lean interviews

David Ames 1:15
today's guest Jeff, Jeff grew up in his words a very religious household. He was a part of a very large Southern Baptist Church. In college he fell in love with the seriousness of Calvinism. After having read John Piper's book desiring God. Jeff went into the ministry, he was very serious about it. And it wasn't until several pastors that he knew committed suicide that he began to ask deep, deep questions. Eventually, he deconstructed his Christianity and now calls himself agnostic. Here is our Lean interviewing Jeff.

Arline 1:59
Hi, Jeff, welcome to the graceful atheist podcast.

Jeff 2:02
Hey, Arline. Thanks for having me. I've listened to a lot of episodes, and have enjoyed it immensely. So I'm honored and thrilled to be on the show.

Arline 2:12
Yes, I'm excited to hear your story. And I'm glad to have met you recently. We're both part of the deconversion anonymous Facebook group. And yeah, it's been good times. So the way we normally start is tell us about the religious environment you grew up in?

Jeff 2:27
Yeah, so that is the that's the big question, isn't it? Um, I definitely grew up in a very religious home. My parents were nominal Christians growing up. My dad was raised sort of Methodist, my mom was raised Roman Catholic. She's Italian from Long Island. And so both of them definitely grew up. In Christian homes, more or less, neither of them, what you would call Evangelical, they were converted later in life, and made sure that we were basically in church every time the doors were open. So I grew up in large Southern Baptist Church, and Carolina. You know, our pastor was the president of the SBC. At one point, it was a very large and influential church. And we did everything that there was to do my parents were both Sunday school teachers. You know, I was in Mission friends as a little kid, and royal ambassadors, Vacation Bible School, I mean, you name it, if they had a program we were doing. I was a very sensitive child to all these things. And I remember, I think I was probably about 789 years old, somewhere in there when I first was baptized. You know, I first told my mom and dad like, this is something that I really want to do. And I did, and there was there was even I think, I think there was a second baptism

Arline 4:15
me to Southern Baptist Church in two baptisms. Um, I understand.

Jeff 4:19
Yeah, so you know how in some of your Southern Baptist churches you they have like the altar call, and folks can go down front and like kneel down on the stairs to pray like it's some special sanctuary. So I was a teenager. Probably like, 13. If I had to guess 12, something like that. And my best friend Joel and I were sitting next to each other, and we're like, we're gonna go down front and pray today after service. So we make our way down the front aisle, and Joe breaks to the right to go pray, and I get intercepted by the pastor. Oh, no. He grabs my hand and it's like You know, what do you want to what are you coming down front today for and I'm, like, get saved. And I'm full blown panic because we're playing around in church and I knew my found out that they were going to be various. And so rather than ever admit to it, I went through with the entire thing from my heavenly man to counseling, to getting baptized, just so I didn't have to tell my parents that I was actually playing around in church. So obviously very, very much in in the church, you know, grew up in youth group. A lot of fun stories, you know, I could tell about that it was, there was there was a lot of good times, it wasn't all bad or anything like that. There was also a lot of turmoil in that youth group. I mean, we went through at one point, I counted, I think we went through six youth pastors and about eight years. Wow, yeah, there was just some was our fault. Some was their fault some folks never needed to be working with to begin with. I understand that. But you know, and then larger church scandals that went down that I was too young to really understand at the time, but it was just a very, very large church and a very kind of traditional, but also chaotic experience in a lot of ways. I was saved again, or for the real, you know, whatever you want to say, when I was probably about 15, I was dealing with a lot of depression, and a lot of suicidal ideation. And it was a youth group night one time. And it's like, everybody's eyes closed, you know, if you want to get saved, stand up and leave the room, or whatever. And so I did out and youth pastor came and found me. From that point on, I took things very personally and very seriously. You know, I wasn't just a cultural, you know, like, youth group kid after that point. It was very, very important to me. And, you know, if you could go back and read my journals from that time, you know, I did the one I'll never forget, it was like, it was a black book. It was like David Nasser, I think was the guy's name.

Arline 7:31
The missionary guy. Yes.

Jeff 7:36
And that was like, hardcore. Hardcore self introspection, and like, living off for Jesus type thing. You know, I definitely like DC talk Jesus freaks, I had that book and read it and was like, no, these people, they, they did their best, they gave their all, blah. And so, but all of that with typical high school kids stuff, you know, I transitioned out of a public high school to a private Christian high school when I was a sophomore. And so there was a lot of upheaval over that, you know, losing a lot of friends back from my regular school. And finding out that in a private Christian school, it's a lot of the same stuff. It's just, they had more money, and they were a lot more intelligent about hiding their offenses. So things didn't necessarily change in that way. But because it was a Christian high school, there was like a whole nother layer on the cake. You know, it was just one more filter for everything to go through. And it was, it was, again, good times balanced with a lot of turmoil. And, but being a Christian high school, you know, we had chapel every week, twice a week. I can't really remember now. But, you know, I took these things so very personally, and so seriously, that I always had this kind of inner guilt and inner turmoil of repentance and wanting to come back to the Lord every time I strayed, you know, type thing, and it was just over and over and over and over and over again. And this desire of wanting to just return to the Lord, you know, very seriously after every offense, kind of, I think that's probably when I really dealt with depression for the first time. In a really dark and despairing kind of way. So much to the point that I was writing poetry about Suicide and I left a journal out one night, and my parents found it. And they brought it to me in the next the next morning. And we're like, What the hell is this, like, what is going on. And I couldn't tell them the fullness of it because I felt all this pressure to be a certain way and to not own types of things. So I got whisked away to the doctor, and you know, they they prescribed me with Zoloft or something like that. And that helped for a while, but it didn't really deal with that, that perpetual cycle of, you know, straying from the Lord wandering, you know, getting into just normal high school stuff, like, I wasn't doing anything excessive or weird. It was growing up, and tremendous guilt over and all these other things. And so you take that, and then you combine all that guilt with all that religious upbringing and all that language. And just this idea that this is deadly serious, this is life or death stuff on the line on a day to day basis that you get the recipe for for college, and really the next probably 15 years of my life.

So I went to a small Christian school, just north of Greenville, South Carolina. And I majored in Christian studies. I was, I sort of had that, you know, call from God type experience, like you need to go study the Bible. And at the time, I wanted to be a New Testament teacher, professor, whatever. But that was a that was a big transition as well, that was a big culture shock, a shock to the system to go from this nominal Christian High School, and mega church that had all these issues to go then to a Christian university, that for all appearances, had its act together. Later, things would come out that they weren't all what they seemed. And there was other scandals and stuff that I could tell you about. And I could tell story after story after story after story from all of these places from all these years. But as I was thinking about it, and preparing for this, I realized none of my stories are really unique. They're just representative of the broader Christian movement, right all day, different manifestations of that. So I get to my, my college, North Greenville University, that's where I live. And for the first time, discovered these Christian celebrities, you know, these pastors, other than, you know, like your typical Southern Baptists, like John Piper, like, Sinclair. You know, these various folks discovered Calvinism in the, in the cafeteria, no less.

Arline 13:41
Huh, me too. It was a camp, campus ministry, people sharing the gospel and like, doing all the things Yeah.

Jeff 13:49
Yeah, exactly. And that, for me was like, you know, red meat, too. I was just starving for something serious. I remember being upset when I first read desiring God, not because of the content, but because I felt like this type of Christianity had been withheld from me. That's a cue mean that there is this superficial, like Southern Baptist existence that I've been living. And all the while like this book was came out. I think, maybe I was three or four years old. So this has been around my entire life. And I never knew that there were people that took it like this did seriously. I felt like I'd been shortchanged by the church. And so I really dive head over heels into this. You know, at that time, there was a there was a student at Bob Jones. I can't remember his name, but he had his own CD ministry called desiring God audio. And he went to his website, you could fill out a form and he would make you copies of John Piper's sermons and mail them are free that now this is like pre big internet pre superfast Wi Fi. He distributed more sermons more of John Piper sermons than desiring God did. And actually had an agreement for a long time that he was allowed to do this. And then he outpaced them to the point they're like, Hey, we never thought you're gonna get this big. We wouldn't really like to be the primary distributor.

Arline 15:27
Yes, that's, wow. That's fascinating.

Jeff 15:31
I listened to that's all I listened to in the car. For three and a half hours of school. I listen to John Piper, on Romans on Hebrews.

Arline 15:39
Oh, yep. Eight years enrollment, I think eight or nine years it took them to go through Romans. Oh,

Jeff 15:45
and I took these guys seriously. Whether it was Piper sprawl or Ferguson or da Carson. Call washer. I'll never forget the first time I heard the shocking youth message. Paul Washer, I'm driving down the road. I don't know why you're clapping. I'm talking about you. You know, I almost lost it. I was like that. Here's someone that gets it. This man. He sees I

Arline 16:11
missed that one. Oh, no, I missed that one. My big one was the message of John Piper's and Beth Moore's that passion whatever year that was, that was the big like, Oh, these young people are wasting Oh, I guess it would have been his wasting. Don't waste your life before the book came out. Yes.

Jeff 16:28
Don't waste your life. Yeah, there's a you don't need to know a lot of things you only need to know.

Arline 16:34
Yes. Do not pick up seashells. Yeah. Oh,

Jeff 16:39
Lord. So I took these guys dead seriously. You know, I thought they were they were genuine. I thought that they were serious. I'll never forget listening to this sermon on John Piper, in which he's encouraging people not to waste their lives. And he gives the example of his ideal retirement. When I finished pastoring, Bethlehem This is Piper saying, I'm going to buy a one way ticket to a closed country in the Middle East, get up on a street corner and preach. What's the worst that can happen? They kill you. And you're over 65. So you get a discount on your airfare. I really thought that he was, you know, serious. Like I'm still waiting on Piper to buy that one way ticket and go be martyred for Christ because you say this to impressionable. And they then follow your example and go devote themselves to some missions work or to you know, inner city work or whatever it is and give up on you know, basic life needs, like health care and like and all these other things. Where's your where's your ministry? Eyebrow, you know, your seemed like, kind of forgot about that. But so I took this very seriously. And unfortunately, along with Calvinism and with with these heady teachers came a lot of arrogance. I'll never forget being in my my advisors office. And we were talking about NT, right? The bishop of Durham NT, right. And I said, You mean NT wrong. My professor was actually a he had actually applied to be NT rights doctoral student and basically like his personal assistant, so that joke went over like a lead balloon.

Arline 18:46
Yeah. Yeah. I remember in t right. There was the whole like, he and John Piper, like, wrote about the same. I don't even remember what it was. But yes, he was on the list of, you know, theologians you do not read. You don't take seriously, they're not, you know, whatever. So he was definitely one of the ones I learned a lot from when I was on my way out, even though I didn't know I was on my way out. But I was like, if John Piper kept telling me no, and now I don't know that. I love John Piper. Who should I go read? Rachel Held Evans into you? Right? Like, there was a list? Yep.

Jeff 19:21
Yeah. So but back then, you know, we looked at if you didn't have that endorsement from these together for the gospel, you must be a heretic, right? Yes.

Arline 19:33
But you're leading people astray. You're you're not quite teaching the Bible properly, you know, fill in the blank with all these different things that they would say. And really, it was like, it didn't feel culty at the time, but looking back, I'm like, they were literally telling us who we can listen to, and who we can't listen to or read or, you know, whatever it

Jeff 19:51
is. Yeah, and, you know, with eternity hanging in the balance. Yes, exactly. This isn't child's play. They, you know, they made it seem like they were so serious and so invested in these things. And I'm not calling into question their, their integrity on that regard. Those guys they are, you know, I've met some of these folks in person. And um, yeah, it's just crazy because it leaves you with all this mental baggage. Yes. And it's hard to untangle these things, especially when it starts when you're so young. And it's reinforced for so many years.

So I graduated and went to the seminary. By this point, I had decided that I was going to be a pastor. So I graduated, graduated college, and headed off to seminary in Wake Forest, North Carolina at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. And at that time, I don't know what it's like today. But at that time, it was just still on the heels of the conservative resurgence. There were still faculty members that, that were kind of grandfathered in, that were vastly different positions. Not necessarily teachers, but I worked in the library. And you know, there was folks that worked in the back offices of the library that were what we would call liberals, you know, liberal Baptists, not conservative evangelicals. So it was a very different experience. Working for the school, I saw some of the behind the scenes stuff. And some of the, you know, I could tell stories from from churches and from universities and colleges that would just make your head spin. But it was, it was around that time that I started to see some of these things were in congruence. And you could say a lot of things. And you could preach a lot of things. And you could purport to believe a lot of things. But when the rubber met the road, where was What were you really doing? What were you really upholding? And it seems in a lot of ways, it was the status quo that was being upheld. It was a religious culture that was being upheld. And it was, I just couldn't put up with it. I ended up quitting after one year of seminary and just like, this is just, I'm just spinning my wheels, I'm wasting my time. Oh, wow. There's there's stuff to do. There's, I have to be on mission, right? I've got to go do all these things. And so I stepped out and began looking for a church to take on. And it was around this time, it was around 2008 2009, something like that when the first person that I knew D converted deconstructors wasn't even a term that. Yeah, it was just a friend from church, who admitted to, you know, our small group that he was having a lot of doubts and a lot of questions. And he was he sort of filled us in at the tail end of it, he was a very personal, very private individual. And so he didn't share a lot of this with us. On the lead up to it, it was more like we kind of caught him at the tail end. And I was very concerned for him, and really wanted to understand what was going on with him. And so I tried to set up a meeting, hey, let's get coffee and, and talk about what's going on. I really want to kind of get my head around this. And I remember that the morning that we were supposed to me. I had envisioned it would just be he and I and we could sit down and kind of work through some of this stuff. And I could really get his perspective. And an ended up in probably five other men from the church showed up. And it just kind of was like, we're not going to discuss this. We're just going to grill you on everything. And I was like, Guys, this is this is not helpful. Like we're not at all getting at what's going on. And we're not really understanding his side of the story or really, and so I never did circle back around to that. And I never did figure out what was it that motivated it. What were the things that he was dealing with, and I really regretted that in a lot of ways that I never was able to at least hear him Give his side of things without an entire panel of other guys, you know, coming out and saying, Yeah, offering them all the counter arguments or whatever.

So fast forward a couple years, and I find myself at the church that I ended up pastoring for about seven years. When we first got there, I went through sort of an elder training program, you know, at this church was about a year long and kind of got to know the pastures and got to know the people and, and came up to make sure that I was a good fit, et cetera. You know, it wasn't it was very different than just being hired on and, and saying, you know, here, come on board, it was, again, you know, I wanted to keep finding folks that were very serious about these things that were very intentional about these things that weren't just playing around and weren't just culturally engaged in on Sunday mornings, and not throughout the rest of the week, like I wanted to find, you know, that kernel that remnant that true, you know, true. So I completed that elder training, and I was ordained in 2012. And the week after I was installed as one of the new elders who was five of us at the time, four or five, the head, lead pastor stepped down, admitted to some personal failings. And in order for him and his family to heal, he had to take a step back. And he made it very clear, he wasn't leaving the church, he was just stepping down from ministry for a season. And then less than a week later, he left the church.

Arline 26:52
How could you stay at a church like that, without knowing everyone is talking about you, everyone wants to know all your business, not in any kind of way that might be kind or helpful, but just the gossip and the unkind words, oof, I couldn't do it,

Jeff 27:06
ya know, and it's, it wasn't tenable. I mean, there was no way to really do it, we all kind of believe that, that's what was going to happen. So really, I should have read the room, I should have looked at what was going on. And just, I should have just been like, this is not a healthy place, when, you know, as soon as you install a new elder, your lead pastor steps down and leaves. And not just that, but then in like the fallout, and in the following weeks and months, I bet the church probably lost 30% of its membership. And I really think that there was so many people who were terrified of that man to do anything. They knew that if they tried to leave, if they tried to resign their membership, that they were gonna get blacklisted they were gonna get, you know, all these arguments, you know, there's there was never a rational, there was never a good reason to leave the church. Never. I never saw it one time, everybody was always treated in such a way as this is not right for you. This is not right for your family, we are telling you, you need to stay you need to work through these things, whatever it was. And so I think that when he left, folks finally, so, you know, the door was was a jar, and they ran. And I was blind as I was just so I was so hopeful. I was sighted, you know, I thought, here's a place that I can really put into practice all these things that I've learned over the years. And so there was no way that I was going to leave at that point. Although looking back hindsight being 2020, that was exactly what I should have left. Yeah. So we worked through those issues. And we, we moved on. I shouldn't say we worked through those issues. We swept all those issues under the rug, and on. And I kind of got into the rhythm of preaching on Sundays and counseling folks, and you know, just doing things that pastors do and a small church started a family. We now have five kids. And so you know, there was if that tells you anything, there was a strong type of Quiverfull mentality amongst some people that certainly wasn't the overall position of the church, but there was definitely a very strong more as better. There was a very strong drive for a family integrated church, right. We didn't have Sunday school for kids. We didn't have youth programs. It was it was a family integrated church. It was basically it was one step above a house church and So, oddly enough, you would think that a church like that would be someplace where you would get a lot of support. With someone with young children, it was just the opposite. We were almost totally on our own. We didn't have anyone to help us with the kids. Even during and we had, you know, some of our kids were were difficult when they were real little. And the trope that we always heard was, well, we don't want to make it worse, you know, something's happening. We don't want to make it worse. We don't want to intervene, you know, we went to, and they were trying to respect our parenting, which I guess in one sense is good. But when you're already overwhelmed with a ministry, family and other stuff, we were just kind of really looking for help and not finding anything. And add on to this, that ever since the beginning of the church, we just kept shrinking, right, we just kept losing folks left and right. And all of this really compounded to make my mental health much, much worse. And the depression that I dealt with, back in high school, really came back in full force. Most notably, right after we lost our son, James, my wife was 22 weeks pregnant, and we went in for a checkup. And it's hard, it's stopped, and never did find out why I'm so sorry. Yeah, so we went through through that. And that was probably where my mental health really took a turn for the worse. And we, we were granted a sort of a mini sabbatical to recover from that we went to this place in Tennessee called chalet retreat ministries. I think they're out of business now. But it was a place where you could go and very cheap housing, and it was a beautiful part of the mountains of Tennessee, and they had a counsel their own staff. And we have one counseling session. With this gentleman, that was the only time we ever talked to anybody about this whole process of of losing a child, which, you know, for something so monumental, that takes a lot of work to get through. And we didn't have really any support through that time of you know, other than folks bringing us a meal or two or saying that they're praying for us, we had nobody to really help us.

And it was during that time, I really discovered Martyn Lloyd Jones. Spiritual depression. So you can see I'm constantly trying to like how do I get back right? I'm, I've reached this this low point, either, you know, in high school, or in college, or now in ministry. And it's always like, alright, Lord, like, bring me back. Like, let's this is, you know, this is all that man, we've got to return, we've got to get back to that stasis. And so I'm, I'm not just doubling down, tripling down, I'm quadrupling down, like every time something happens, I am coming back, you know, hands out, arms open, like, Lord, please, please help bring me through this. help my family etc. But so that's, that's kind of up to where things got real difficult. So that was 2015. So for the next four years, my mental health just really tanked. And all the while dealing with this in a in the environment of this, this ministry. I can tell so many horror stories from that time, but none of them are overly unique to me. But suffice to say, after another three, four years, the church ended up closing. And from the very beginning, it wasn't never a large church. It was I think the largest set ever was was about 120 folks. And from the time that I got there, when when it began hemorrhaging members, it never grew again, it just shrink, shrink and shrink shrink. Until finally in July of 2019, we had our last meeting. And it was a it was an odd time I was I was so ready to be done. That I was excited. I was glad that it had closed and that I had kind of fulfilled my obligation. It was like, I didn't let anybody down. I didn't quit. I didn't resign, I didn't have some great moral failure or whatever disqualify myself. Yeah. But I was, I wasn't in a good place at all. And it was, it was shortly after the church closed in October of 2019, that the third pastor I knew, in the year committed suicide. Oh, my gosh, there was two in the spring and then one in October. And the gentleman in October, he left behind a wife and two young kids. And one of the focuses of His ministry was mental health and suicide prevention. And that hit me like a sledgehammer. Yeah, I, I had dealt with these things for so long, when when this gentleman took his own life, left behind his family. It was just, I could not any longer find within myself, that desire to come back. I remember praying, you know, maybe not praying, but I remember telling God, essentially, I'm done like I have, I've looked for help for so many years. And I know that that these gentlemen did as well for so many years. And it's, it's just not coming. Where is it? Right? Why am I here? Again, since I was 15, dealing with this stuff. And here's one more guy that didn't make it. And this was, you know, this, yeah, this was definitely the first crisis, that I did not reach bottom, and then say something to the effect of like, I'm really, like, we're gonna double down, we're gonna really put our nose to the grindstone and do this, again, I just said, I'm done. I'm done. I can't, I can't do more, I can't keep going through this cycle. And so I would say, that's when my deconstruction really began in earnest. And at first, it felt like, you know, a huge weight had been lifted. It was very much a feeling of peace and calm. And this is, this is wonderful, this is the best thing I've ever done. And I think it's, you know, just that sort of any big change in life can bring about that sense of newness or whatever. You know, it's not the kind of honeymoon phase. And that was good. That was cathartic in a lot of ways. But it also didn't really help address the root issues. And in a lot of ways, you know, it kind of cut me off from any sub type of foundation or mooring that I had at that point. And I, I just began to drift I was after a lifetime of having all the right answers. Yes. Now, I don't even know what the questions are. Right. You know, I was, I was talking to my therapist the other day, actually, which I highly recommend and find a good therapist. Don't talk to your family, about all this stuff. I mean, sure, talk to your family, but don't don't use them as your only source of of help. So I was talking to my therapist the other day, and he was we were talking about a was a story about a gentleman who had been released from prison. I think he was overseas. And he had been been held in solitary confinement, and for whatever reason, he was allowed out and was allowed to come back to America. And he was talking about how prison and all this time had taken from him. Not just his freedom, but it had taken away his mental agency, and and couldn't think for himself anymore. He was told what to do and what to think, you know, all the time. It took away his bodily autonomy, because here he is trapped in this so he can't get out. He can't do what what he wants. And it took away years of his life, right as he was in confinement. And no, I'm not saying that, that being a pastor in a church is anything like being in prison overseas or anything like that. But it immediately flashed across my mind when I heard this, that this is in in a lot of ways what a high control religious environment does to you. It takes away your mental agency, it tells you what to think about everything. It takes away your bodily autonomy because it tells you how to live in in every respect. And when you get out you look back and realize that it took away a lot of years of your life to and not only that, but when you do get out especially If it was from a place that was very controlling, or a group that was very exclusive, you lose all your relationships. You lose all of your community. You know, if you're a pastor like I was you lose your employment. You lose all your cultural markers, right? What are you going to do on? On every Sunday? You know, we were in church, Sunday, Wednesday, Tuesday nights, sometimes on Thursdays, and then I was preparing to preach, you know, every day, otherwise. And so it takes away holidays, right? What do you do with Christmas? What are you going to do with Easter? What are you going to do with all these other things. And it can really erode your sense of purpose. And so going through all of this, you know, I was just adrift. I didn't know what to do or what to think. And for a long time, I didn't want to think about anything. I didn't want to deal with these hard questions anymore. I just needed to give them a break. So I spent at least a year, year and a half, just sort of coasting through life, just doing whatever, and not thinking too much about anything, but I have a very overactive mind. And it would not let me rest in that way for very long. I could not stop thinking about these things. But what about eternity? What about heaven? And hell? What about, you know, you name it. And so I tried finding other ways to think about these things, you know, I tried reading philosophy. But my honestly, I'm not smart enough. And my brain was just too exhausted. I just couldn't. I tried reading, self help books, like from a stoic perspective. You know, Marcus really is simply things that you kind of popular. And that never really did it for me. I wanted to for that to work, you know, I wanted to have that sort of Mana, right? Take these things by the horns. And that was appealing to me, but it never brought any sense of peace, it never, never really helped me. get over that hump.

I will say one good thing about that time, was it, it really gave me a chance to step back and assess who I wanted to be, and what my own values were. Right, because after a lifetime, in church, I was told, these are what thing these are the things that are important is your position on abortion, right? This is your position on whatever, you know, everything was given to you. This is what you're to believe. This is what makes a good person, this is what makes a bad person etc. And so for the first time, I really was able to sit down and think like, what do I value? What is What do I think is important in in life in general, but but interpersonally right, what are what character traits do I esteem, you know, kindness, and creativity and intelligence and thoughtfulness and all these other things? More so than being right, you know? Or having all the answers or being righteous or holy, or whatever, you know, it was, it was definitely a time for me to kind of consider what was important to me, what mattered under my evaluation. And it was, so this that's probably about 2000. This probably about 2021. I'm dealing with these things and kind of trying to figure out what is what's important to me. And I was at a used bookstore one day in town. And I just kind of meandered over to the poetry aisle, and found of this book on the shelf was called a book of luminous things. And she says love Milosz was a Polish poet. And he edited this book, an international anthology of poetry going all the way back to like 500 bc of the current day. Oh, wow. And I paid $1.54 It is the best money I've ever spent. It certainly wasn't an immediate fix. It wasn't a cure or anything like that. But that book exposed me to all of these people, all of these authors, these poets and writers from you know, literally spanning centuries, from all over the world from different backgrounds and walks of life. expose me to these people. That that showed me that dead white men theologians weren't the only folks that had ideas worth listening to.

Arline 45:04
Yes. Oh my goodness, yes. 100% Everything you're saying, yes,

Jeff 45:08
that's really obvious to some folks. And that was totally revolutionary to me. I had been so indoctrinated to think that if you weren't a dead white Puritan, or a living white theologian, or you know, someone you didn't have anything to say, Yeah, you had, maybe well, we'll give you your token black guy here there, you know, but otherwise, you better toe the line, these are the folks that have the answers. And expose me to the fact that these questions, folks in China, in 500 BC, you were thinking more clearly and better about them than I was today? And like, what, what is going on? And it really just, the main question was, as I read these different authors, as I saw, in their writing, these folks encountered the big questions of life, they encountered the natural world, they encountered relationships with one another, they encountered that inner dialogue, the relationship of their own mind, if you will. And they did it in a way that expose more of the loveliness of the beauty of the world, and of kind of the wonder of the just the fact that we're alive, and get to experience any of these things than any theologian I've ever read or met. And what really was so shocking to me, you know, as I'm trying to get my head around this stuff that some of these folks are gay, some of them are lesbians, some of them are Buddhist, or Muslim, or whatever. And they're, they're not Christians. They're not southern white evangelicals. Like, how does this work? How do these unbelievers look at the world with more of a sense of wonder, then the preachers and professors and writers that I've been in reading and listening to for so many years, he says, the editor explains it. Yeah. Just very concisely, in the introduction to this book. He says, in a way, poetry is an attempt to break through the density of reality into a zone where the simplest things are, again, as fresh as if they were being seen by a child. I love it. Yes, these will say about entering the kingdom. They like little children. Right? And that's what what that book and what that mindset showed me. And that was utterly transformative for me. One of the folks that I encountered in that book was Mary Oliver,

Arline 48:03
when you were talking about books that were life changing. I was like, my new Bible. This is what a covenant is devotions. Like, I just have it that's my Mary Oliver's Yes, devotions. It's just so many years of the most beautiful poetry she and Billy Collins are my two go to heavy people that are that are good, good for me, good for my soul that don't know what the right word would be. But yes, they're just good for me.

Jeff 48:29
The first time I read Mary, I was in love. I mean, yes, she had a better understanding and a better way of showing the glory of of the world and the being and of the human experience. And just the natural world than than any theologian I've ever met. Any young earth creationist I've ever encountered. You know, you think about like, Mary Oliver, in one of her books, she wrote an entire essay about a spider that lived in the corner of a stairwell in a house that they rented for the summer. And all of the different cycles and the things that it did during the weeks that they rented this house. And I remember sitting there reading that book, and just being utterly floored at how much attention and awareness she brought to a simple little house spider. And like, one hand, you've got this lady that's, you know, she's from from the perspective that I was brought up with. She's lost, right? She's got a depraved mind. Yes, He's incapable of seeing the glory of God. And yet if you believe in God, she's describing his glory and creation better than anyone I've ever heard or seen. Yes, something did not compute Right. And, and reading her. It really changed the way I looked at the world the way I looked at other people. And it's funny that you said that was that's like your new Bible, because I literally I wrote down while I was preparing this. I imagined that the way that her works spoke to me is the way that the Psalms speak to a lot of people.

Arline 50:17
Yes, absolutely, yes, I can see that.

Jeff 50:21
And as a result, you know, I so wanted to see, like she saw, I wanted to be able to sit down and look at the little spider in the corner and just be, you know, in, in, in wonder of this little creature, doing its thing.

Arline 50:46
So where are you now? Like, what do you have a label, you don't have a label?

Jeff 50:50
I would call myself an agnostic. Yeah, I'm definitely not an atheist. I heard a fun illustration the other day that someone said, you know, the looking for life in the universe. It's like going out into the ocean and filling up a cup of water. And looking in the cup and saying, oh, there's no fish in the ocean. Yeah, universe is like the ocean. Right? It's so expansive, that our minds are so limited. And our experience is so limited that to grab a cup of water out of it and say, Well, this is all there is, you know, I'm very cautious to because I was so convinced that I had all the facts for so many years, because I was so arrogant. And knowing that I was right. I'm just not interested in that anymore. Like, Mary Oliver, she says something like, I have a lot of perhapses and a lot of what ifs. You know, and that's, that speaks to me. And this, this idea of, you know, for so many years, being in church for so many years. feeling like I was trying to squeeze myself into those confines, like, you know, a tight shoe. You know, relaxing out of that, and relaxing into uncertainty. It felt like being in a warm bath. Right? It was, it was just for the first time I was at peace, I was at ease, I have to have all the answers. I didn't need to know even what all the questions were. Yeah, and just discovering these folks, these authors I wanted to see like they saw I wanted to, to have that sense of wonder in the world again. You know, I think she says there was a poem that she wrote that was instructions for living a life. Pay attention. be astonished. Tell about?

Arline 52:55
Yes. Yeah. Like, that's exactly what she's done and what we can do.

Jeff 53:01
Right. And so, another happy Providence, I was in that same used bookstore. And from that, that book of luminous things, and the International anthology, and then from Mary's writing, I kind of gotten exposed to, you know, this idea of awareness, this idea of just really paying attention to what's around you, not being so distracted by things. And I wandered over into another section and I discovered another book about mindfulness meditation called wherever you go, there you are by Jon Kabat Zinn. And that exposed me to meditation into mindfulness practice. And that gentleman, Jon Kabat Zinn, he has been teaching this since like the mid 1980s, in clinical settings, and in hospitals, and in prisons, and doctor's office type settings, to help people reduce stress, dealing with anxiety to deal with chronic pain. And it was, that was the next step in my journey was was beginning to sort of practice mindfulness. And that was really the key that unlocked the door for me to get out of my head, right. Past and to get on with life. Because I mean, up to that point, I was I was very bitter. I was very angry with God in a lot of ways. And it was it was getting out of that stream. I think he says at one point in the book, he says, mindfulness doesn't stop the water from flowing. But it allows you to sit on the bank and observe it, right? Yes, you're not being carried downstream anymore. You're able to just sit and say like, oh, this is what's going on. And and he's especially non religious, at least in the beginning of the book, he definitely does get more into the Buddhist philosophy as the book progresses, but at the very beginning, he shows how like this can apply to any worldview, it doesn't matter. This isn't shutting things out, it's not shutting things off. It's trying to see very clearly and deliberately, it's trying to change your position towards yourself and to others and, and really bringing an intentionality to things. And it was, it was realizing that that's what I've been doing for so long are trying to do, right, trying to find some sort of peace of mind. Whether it was through all the religious cycles, whether it was rigorous prayer, whether it was constant. Bible study, right? journals, books, you know, you name it, listen into every Piper sermon, you can get your hands on, you know, that's really what I was looking for. Was something to quiet that inner turmoil, something that say that this is okay, that you're okay. And that that life is gonna be okay. And I never could find that in religion. I never could find that that sense of peace in in evangelical Christianity. And, and really, the more I thought about it, the more I'm convinced that, that the modern evangelical movements greatest failure is the way it disconnects us from our body and disconnects us from our mind. Right? You've got purity culture, like when I was when I was in youth group, right? We did all the things I hadn't the purity, we'd had the ceremony, we were gonna save ourselves from marriage, blah, blah, blah. And so you're disconnected from your body, even as you're developing even as you're going through adolescence. You're not taught to understand even what's happening, that rigorous self denial that comes with that in the rigorous pursuit of holiness. You know, I talked earlier about how I control religion takes away your mental agency, it takes away your bodily autonomy, it tells you what you're supposed to think and what you're supposed to do, and, and we're taught not to trust ourselves. Right, we're taught not to trust our body, you know, you hear about, and thank God, I'm, you know, really grateful that I didn't have it any worse that I didn't have to go through any of these, you know, real traumatic events, like sexual abuse or anything like that. Survivors do with but you know, you hear those stories, and how much of that could have been prevented? If folks would have just listened to their gut, right? As a creep. He's doing whatever around my kids, this is wrong. And we need to find something, you know, we didn't get out of the situation. But we're, we're trained for so many years. Don't trust your instincts. Right? Don't trust your gut feeling. Don't trust your mind. Right Question everything. Don't don't trust anything but what the Bible says or your pastor, right? He buffets his body to make it a slave, right to bring it in. And yeah, so yeah, putting that all together the. So Mary, you know, and these poets showed me that there was a better way to see the world. Mindfulness Meditation, started to show me how I could sort of enter into that world. And the first time I ever sat down and tried writing a poem was probably probably last fall last November, I think it was. And I realized that if I was going to sit down and write anything, honestly, if I was going to try to replicate what I had read in these books, and had read of various folks, if I was going to enter into that, it required me to be really vulnerable, right? Because that's what we love about these, what we love about Mary or whoever is the way they look at the human condition as they're experiencing it. And they tell us about it very plainly. They tell us very honestly about what is going on, and what they're dealing with. And, you know, a lifetime and church had taught me that. That's a really dangerous thing to do. That is a very dangerous thing to do, because not every time and there were some good experiences over the years, but for the vast majority of times when when I opened myself up to folks, it backfired big time. So that was very, very difficult for me to to be honest with myself and to be honest with others. And but I was able to say like if I'm going to write something if I'm going to try my hand at this Then I've got to be willing to at least be real with myself. And then with whoever reads

that connected me with other folks. I know you interviewed grace from hyssop and Laurel, Oh, yes. I submitted some stuff to there and got in that magazine and connected with some of those folks and just seeing that, here's this community of people. Really, the thing that's, that continually strikes me as I've, as I've moved out of those spaces, is my whole life I was brought up with this mindset that, that we're the in group and everything out of this is not right, it's not these aren't good people. We have the right answers, we have the truth. They are lost their their their minds are depraved, you know, radical depravity, etcetera, however you want to say yeah. And the more I've, I've moved out of those religious spaces, the more I have seen that, actually, those folks, the world, quote, unquote, does relationships. They do honestly, they do integrity, they do all of these things, in a lot of ways better than any church I was ever a part of. Yeah. Yeah. The way that that high control, religion isolates you, and dis embodies you, and causes you to question your own mental faculties causes you to question your own worth and goodness, in order to you're making a really big exchange, you're trading off everything about yourself for acceptance into this community. And the more you do that, the harder it is to break free from it. The more you're in that system, the more you fear, people who are outside of it, the more you are, you know, you add in a healthy dose of persecution complex, right? We're told that we're gonna be persecuted for Christ. Blessing Are you and you're persecuted. And when folks say all sorts of nasty things about you. So it's like you're priming this pump for thinking like, Oh, we're going to be oppressed, we're going to be oppressed, whatever. You throw in fear of how conviction about end times things, right? We could go on and on. It's no wonder the modern church is imploding. I mean, because folks are starting to see that, wait a second, things really aren't that bad, right? We'd really have it that but so they've either got to manufacture things and make them bad. Or they've got to see that maybe things aren't quite what we've been told.

Arline 1:03:06
And used to, you know, the next generation could be like, you know, they could be homeschooled, they could be kept within the church, they never had to interact with anybody outside, like in the world, Quick Quote. But now, parents have to work really hard to keep their children away from the internet, their children away from, like, there's just it's information is so much more accessible, that I wonder how you know, how it'll go with each generation, to just be able to know, okay, this stuff my parents grew up with just isn't true. Like, I can just Google this and know that this isn't true. And each generation seems to not buy into the fear mongering of a lot of the older generations. And I think it's great. I think it's great,

Jeff 1:03:55
I think our hope is really in in the next generation is in the folks who are teens right now, and maybe a little younger, who are going to grow up without these cultural blinders on? Yes, and they are going to see that, you know, the, the world is getting hotter. And that a lot of the systems that we have in place that privilege the few at the expense of the many are not in everyone's best interest, that religious dogmatism is almost never helpful or healthy. And you know, that just a sense of, of awe and wonder at the world and that this, this experience of being alive is too precious to trade for fitting into some very strict and rigid culture of the 19 and 20th century The Evangelical Church I mean, it's just not going to survive with the amount of information that we have. Like you said, the the ready access to it. You know, it's when you can get on Netflix and watch multiple documentaries about the damage that high control religion does. Yes, what's on your phone and watch it. I mean, I don't know what kids are gonna be watching this thing, they probably don't care too much,

Arline 1:05:29
probably more teenagers, but still, like, they have access to all the things. And they have different values. The next generation has different values, like the things that are important to them, or, you know, equity and everybody having the things that they need. And I feel like the next generation also knows they have a voice. Whereas in the past children and young people weren't necessarily listened to. And now it's like they can get on Tik Tok, and influence millions of people in a way that some young people used to not be able to do.

Jeff 1:05:58
Yeah, it's, it's amazing. And so I am, you know, kind of land the plane, if it were, I'm hopeful for for my kids. You know, there'll be going to church later today. We could we could have a whole long discussion about that. But oh, yeah. Yeah, it's not what it was. Right. It's different. And I think they're seeing that there's options, right, they're seeing that it doesn't have to be the way it used to be. And that's true for for all of us. Right. That's, that's one of the biggest takeaways from this whole deconversion deconstructing experience is that we can expand our horizons, right, we can look out ahead and see that this way isn't so good, you know, maybe, maybe we need to correct course, we can see that there. There are better ways of engaging with with one another and with the world. And with ourselves, right? That's one of the biggest takeaways for me is I started buying that book that Jon Kabat Zinn, wherever you go, there you are. Every time I see it in the US bookstore, I just grab a copy, you know, dollar, $2, whatever, and then just give it away, because it's not the panacea, right? It's not going to solve everyone's problems or anything. And it's not going to be a great fit for every individual. But the more we recover our own agency, the more we recover our own inherent worth, the more we sever those, those chords that kind of hold us back, right? That's what they that's what high control religion wants you to think, is that you don't have any inherent worth. Right? You're a radically depraved Senator, that God had to murder his own Son to save that you don't have any inherent goodness, that you can't trust yourself that you can't trust, your intuition, your instincts. You can't listen to your body, right? It's all these things. Yes, everything. And the more you experiment with that, the more you realize that that's just not true. It's just simply not true. We have an amazing power within us to to heal ourselves. Not talking, you know, like woowoo, Crystal rubbing or anything. I have been brought back from the brink of a full blown panic attack by sitting down and watching my breath for five minutes.

Arline 1:08:45
Yes, yes. Coming back into your body. Yep.

Jeff 1:08:48
It didn't take anything special. There was nothing supernatural about it. It was just getting out of my head for a second. And being passive observer realizing what was happening, not investing in it, and moving on from it. No, God involved.

Arline 1:09:08
I know. That's, that's the huge thing is you realize, like all the supernatural stuff that's unnecessary. We have. There's so much that we can just do inside our bodies. And yep. Jeff, thank you so much. Thank you for telling your story. Thank you for the beautiful recommendations from Jon Kabat Zinn and Mary Oliver to poetry from 5000 years ago. I really appreciate you being on the podcast today.

Jeff 1:09:30
Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.

Arline 1:09:39
My final thoughts on the episode. He and I had a lot in common. Like I knew there were other people in the world who listened to way too many John Piper sermons in their lives. But I didn't realize how many of us there are in learning that there was some guys selling CDs Nice to people to listen to John Piper sermons. Oh heavens, I just, it's amazing how the small number of white male American Christian pastors can have so much influence. Even before the internet, like so much influence all over the United States. I guess there was radio, I kind of forget about radio. But I loved hearing Jeff's story, all the different things we had in common. And I can understand them being agnostic and open to possibilities. I think for me, the idea that there are gods and goddesses at least the way I've ever been taught about Gods and Goddesses, just seems like a big jump. But when you're out of high control religion, you can think about the world however, fits best for you. And if it's not harming you, it's not harming others. And it seems when people get out of religion more often than not, at least in my limited experience, people's lives get better. And the way they treat people in their lives get better. So maybe that'll have a ripple effect. Also, Mary Oliver, Jon Kabat Zinn, any type of book, like a book of luminous things that he recommended, where you can just get beautiful words inside of you like, yes, that was something I missed after it converted. I didn't know the word daybook. I didn't know you could buy books that were just like short little readings. I just knew the word devotional, but just Oh, getting beautiful words inside of you. It's just, it's just wonderful. So I'm glad Jeff has found all these different sets of beautiful words that are able to change his life without having to have some kind of supernet natural entity, be part of that. And no kind of high control religion. Oh, anyway, Jeff, thank you again, for being on the podcast. This was wonderful. I'm really glad we were able to do this.

David Ames 1:12:07
The secular Grace Thought of the Week is embrace the mundane. As Jeff talked about, within Christianity, every decision that you make every choice, every action seems to have eternal consequences. And the weight of that can be exhausting. We are human beings and our decisions, of course have consequences but not the eternal time. They are mundane human. Embrace that mundanity. Until next time, my name is David, and I am trying to be the graceful atheist. Join me and be graceful. The beat is called waves by MCI beats. If you want to get in touch with me to be a guest on the show. Email me at graceful atheist@gmail.com for blog posts, quotes, recommendations and full episode transcripts head over to graceful atheists.com. This graceful atheist podcast part of the atheists United studios Podcast Network

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Megan: Catholic to Evangelical to Atheist

Atheism, Autonomy, Deconversion, LGBTQ+, Podcast, Secular Grace

This week’s guest is Megan. Megan grew up in a fundamentalist Catholic home with an irrationally religious mother and an absent father. As a teen, she was invited to an evangelical bible study after school and after some serious “love bombing” by the youth group, she was a part of a community.

“You get ‘loved bombed’ when you walk into a new church or into a new youth group, and they make you feel like you are the most welcome you will ever be and that your community is so indeed of you and your specific experience…”

Evangelical Christianity worked well for Megan for years. She had questions and concerns but nothing that made her leave for good until she knew one of her kids was possibly LGBTQ. That was when she knew she’d have to figure out the religious future of her family.

Now, she is an atheist and has never been more free. She’s living out secular grace, sealing up her boundaries, and being the whole person she’s always needed to be.

Quotes

“The more seriously you take your Christian faith, the more it can morph into these really abusive, bad things that sneak up to destroy parts of your life…”

“Being a human and connecting with other humans is really challenging.”

“In the United States, they never can find priests, so most of the time, when you go to a Catholic church, the priest will be from somewhere in Africa—Kenya, Nigeria…”

“I’m significantly less nice, but that’s good.”

“I’ve always been a curious person. I always question things. I’m always reading everything I can get my hands on and exploring all kinds of different ideas and thoughts.”

“…slept well for the first time in a long time because if there’s no god, and you just die, then there’s no point in having anxiety about whether or not you’re good.”

“I felt so much relief. The joy of living each day with purpose and meaning, knowing there is an end to it, and therefore, the time you are spending has value.”

Recommendations

Jen Hatmaker

Rachel Held Evans

Mindfulness meditation

Interact

Join the Deconversion Anonymous Facebook group!

Graceful Atheist Podcast Merch!
https://www.teepublic.com/user/gracefulatheistpodcast

Support the podcast
Patreon https://www.patreon.com/gracefulatheist
Paypal: paypal.me/gracefulatheist

Deconversion
https://gracefulatheist.com/2017/12/03/deconversion-how-to/

Secular Grace
https://gracefulatheist.com/2016/10/21/secular-grace/

Attribution

“Waves” track written and produced by Makaih Beats

Transcript

NOTE: This transcript is AI produced (otter.ai) and likely has many mistakes. It is provided as rough guide to the audio conversation.

David Ames 0:11
This is the graceful atheist podcast United studios Podcast Network. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome to the graceful atheist podcast. My name is David, and I am trying to be the graceful atheist. Thank you to my latest reviewer. Rob. Thank you so much for the kind words, you too can rate and review the podcast on the Apple podcast store, rate the podcast on Spotify, and subscribe to the podcast wherever you are listening. Remember, we have a merchandise store with all of your graceful atheist and secular Grace themed items. You can find the link in the show notes. If you are going through doubt, deconstruction the dark night of the soul, you do not have to do it alone. Join our private Facebook group deconversion anonymous and become a part of the community. You can find us at facebook.com/groups/deconversion Special thanks to Mike T for editing today's show. On today's show, Arline interviews Megan, Megan grew up in a traditionally Catholic family, there were some mental health elements around her mother. In her teenage years, she went to a youth group and experienced love bombing and felt like that was the place for her she became evangelical. Until later in her life, she began to have doubts and the deconstruction and deconversion began. Today Megan is an atheist and is as free as ever. Here is Arline interviewing, Megan.

Arline 1:49
welcome Megan to the graceful atheist podcast.

Speaker 2 1:53
I am so excited to be here to share my story and talk to some different people out there that might relate to the sort of weird tangled childhood and then adulthood that came out of this whole, like, pre Christian experience and now atheist life. kind of excited to share. Yeah,

Arline 2:14
I'm excited to hear your story. So usually how we begin is just tell us about the religious environment that you grew up in.

Speaker 2 2:20
So for like, unlike a lot of listeners, I did not grow up. In a fundamentalist Protestant home, I grew up in a fundamentalist Catholic home. So my parents were, especially my mother was very strict about religion, we never missed a holy day. We never missed Mass on Sunday. And additionally, like my mother's parenting style was very much centrally focused on whether or not we were or weren't being good Christian children, right. But I wouldn't say necessarily in like a rational way, but in a more like, you are not going to get presents on Christmas kind of way. So yeah, so a little bit more background to is that my parents are both from alcoholic families and had trauma in their homes from alcoholism. And then my father was an alcoholic as well. So my mom even though my dad was in the home and they never separated or divorced, she was really a single parent. So like basically what it looked like in our house on a day to day basis is that my dad would get up very very early, like maybe five in the morning and head to work maybe before we even left for school. And then he get home pretty late like six o'clock and immediately drink three to five Manhattan's and fall asleep in his chair. So he was absent. Meanwhile, my mother was basically she was in charge of everything from our clothes to who we hung out with to our spiritual life what we thought about things, but most especially and and unfortunately, I think she was very controlling over how we felt about things. Yes, so one of this is one of the main reasons why I kind of felt like I wanted to come on the podcast and talk with everyone was because I think It's not always talked about how, in a very religious environment, your agency can be kind of taken away from you, using the language and tools of Christianity. So like, when you're having a very real crises, you might, instead be told, you know, you should pray about it, or my mother's favorite was offered up to the Lord. Which is kind of, I mean, in terms of covert abuse, that means your issue is not serious. It's it minimizes the severity. As an adult, looking back on that I had no boundaries at all very porous boundaries. And anytime I were to try to establish a boundary, it was like a cardinal sin. And so, like the Christian element, there was really a tool, like, a sort of a weapon my mother used to sort of keep us in compliance with the level of control that we were under.

Arline 6:20
Did it feel like because she didn't have control in her marriage, and maybe in other parts of her life is like, here's the one thing that I can control are my children.

Speaker 2 6:31
Yes, I think that was a lot of it. And she very much came from a place of trauma, like she had been abused as a child, most physically by her father, neglected by her mother, and even sexually assaulted by a neighbor at one point. So she had all of this unresolved trauma that I think was dealt with exactly the same way where basically, she was always told that you're just going to have to pray about it, or she wasn't taken seriously and that sort of thing. So she just employed the same tactics that she had grown up with. Not physical abuse, thankfully. But I think sometimes emotional abuse is just as harmful because it's so confusing, and you don't always notice that it's happening to you, right? Yeah. It's

Arline 7:27
invisible to other people as well. Like, yes, you don't necessarily know what's happening, especially if it's gaslighting and things like that. But then it's like no one else, notices.

Speaker 2 7:47
I didn't realize actually, until I was almost 30 years old, that it was abusive. Wow. Yeah. Because it was partially because I had started to have huge crises all the time in my marriage. And they were related to the fact that I had such porous boundaries from my childhood. And I also had the belief that anybody's emotional experiences were something I had to personally fix. Oh, wow. And that came out of this place where my mom kind of assigned each of us a role in the household kind of not like directly, but just how she behaved towards us. So like, my oldest brother was, like, stand in for dad. He made us our lunches for school for years. And like, he was like, the person that drove me places for a long time when he was a teenager, things like that. And I was like many mom, in fact, my name is actually it means my mother's name in miniature. So my view is kind of ironic. But she treated me like her in home therapist, and she would tell me all about how hard things were going with my dad and how much we needed to pray about it. And she would talk about how a therapist wanted her to get a divorce but that that wasn't okay in a Christian marriage and that it's forever and that women have to support their spouse no matter what even though I'm sure her emotional tank hadn't been filled for like years and years. But like she was telling me all of this while I was like seventh child when a Heidi child so and this was not something she was sharing with my brother's sort of, she treated me like I was her like bestest buddy. Emotional support. A very inappropriate I, I've learned now as an adult, to disclose all of those very deep, difficult things to your kids. And then, you know, on top of that, like if you stepped out of line in any in any tiny little way. Like, if I ever like teased my little brother, she would be like, you have deeply harmed him, and now he's depressed. Like so far past what's rational, right?

Arline 10:43
Yeah, making you responsible, like you were saying a minute ago for someone else's emotional state that you don't have.

Speaker 2 10:50
And, you know, of course, I grew up feeling like that was normal. Yeah. And everything in my Christian faith, even more. So when I later became an Evangelical, sort of reinforced that belief that we're somehow that we have somehow have some control over how other people feel, and how they interpret the world, and that it is our responsibility to somehow reach other people in that space. So like that reinforcing belief just really kind of trapped me. And I was very serious about it. I think this is true a lot of time where like, the more seriously you take your Christian faith, the more it can morphin to these really abusive, bad things that sneak up to really destroy parts of your life and really unfortunate ways.

Arline 11:54
Yes, if you truly believe that hell is real, you know, that should affect your life, that should affect how you interact with other people, because you don't want them to go to hell. If you truly believe that, like, God is the most important thing in your life, you will constantly be thinking about how am I glorifying God? How am I mean? It's just so yes, I think you're right, the more serious we take it, because I know lots of just nominal Christians. They could take it or leave it like that.

So you mentioned converting or I don't know what language you'd use to evangelicalism. So how, how did that come about? Or is that too far forward? Do we need to move back some?

Speaker 2 12:41
Well, actually, no, I think I was, I was about 14 or 15 years old. Youth? Yeah, actually, I got invited to an after school Bible study at school. And then I just followed the group of teenagers to youth group. And I mean, it was actually kind of a fascinating time really exploratory. I remember, I contacted the Mormons, like ask them to send me a Book of Mormon so that I could like, understand that. It's free. Yeah, I've always been curious about things. So like, it's actually pretty amazing that it took me as long as it did to D convert, it's kind of, it's pretty stunning, actually. But that time period, I was just so excited and interested to feel like so accepted. And I think that that's like a that's probably where a lot of people get kind of hooked, because, uh, first of all, just being a human and connecting with other humans is really challenging. And then second of all, when you have, like neurodivergent tendencies, which I do, ADHD, and you struggle really to understand other people sometimes, and so that, like, just blanket welcome was really pretty amazing. I heard it makes sense. Yeah. Use groups kind of use that kind of cult strategy, which is like, what did they call it? It's, uh,

Arline 14:23
but what I was going to say about youth groups is like, at least in my experience, when I was in high school, we were like a motley crew of kids like these for kids that would not have hung out, except we were all thrown together in church. And it worked. It worked well for us. And it was nice, because a lot of us weren't cool. We didn't fit in anywhere else. And then it was like, Oh, look, we belong. And that's, yeah, that's a human need. So go ahead.

Speaker 2 14:47
The other thing too, is that if you are cool, and you're in youth group, the shame would be unbearable if you didn't accept the weirdos and the oddballs. It's

Arline 14:58
interesting that Yeah, that's an interesting perspective. Yeah,

Speaker 2 15:02
I mean, I'm sure that that sometimes those kids do exist. And they are mean to other kids at youth group. They exist everywhere. But you feel like you can be cool. If you aren't cool. And all the other settings when you're accepted, and welcomed love bombing is the word I was looking for. Yeah, so like, you get love bombed when you walk into a new church, or into a new youth group, and they make you feel like you are the most welcome you will ever be. And that your community is so in need of you and your specific experience is the most tremendous feeling. I think human beings in general are looking for that everywhere. And you rarely find it in a genuine way. And I expect, you almost never find it in a genuine way, in a church. That's my theory, because they only seem to care if you are brand new, and and then as soon as you start to become part of that community, you start to see all the ways that you need to change, or you're not quite, quite right. And that sort of this shift happens so subtly. And so a behind, like the curtain over time, where all of a sudden, you now have the responsibility to meet their specifications on like, when you first started in the Netflix experience, or space, which is really kind of what happened, for me is like, anytime I became part of a church was because I was looking for community and acceptance, and belonging. And I often felt really wonderful in those spaces. But the shame that comes with it, in the, when you are a person that was raised with all that emotional abuse, it doesn't take any time at all to recognize that everybody there needs something. And you feel compelled to deliver. And the stress and the feeling of burden and like, it's very incredible overwhelm, like, really hard to cope with. So, I mean, the first go around, when I first got into an evangelical church, I became very rapidly, very involved with all the things. And I eventually became a camp counselor working with all these young teenagers at a super evangelical camp. And then, while we were there, the behind the curtain thing, really through me. Whereas we would have these camp counselor meetings, and they would sit everybody down, who was you know, a counselor and say, okay, so how many kids came to the fire last night? Did we? How many altar calls? How can we bump that up to seven tomorrow or whatever? It was like a factory. Yeah, it had nothing to do with actually helping or meeting the genuine emotional needs of these children. And I had my first real crises of faith. Because I realized, you know, we aren't helping these kids. We're like breaking these kids. And you send them home. And they're back to where they were before. Yes, yeah.

Arline 19:10
I remember noticing that I I went to church when I was in high school, but I would not have said I was a Christian. I became a Christian in college. That was my like, little thing and my testimony. But I remember thinking like at the church, we went to Vacation Bible School and camps and all those things were just about so they get add numbers to how many people got baptized. But then after that, there was no you know, at the time I would have said there was no discipleship there. Like you didn't do anything to make sure they like I don't know still love Jesus or cared or what you know, whatever the things you wanted in their lives for to the spirit or whatever you just did. They just went back to school and life went back to normal and, and for the kids who take it seriously. Then it becomes why can't I keep doing this? Why? Why do I keep strong dealing with these things because I want to love Jesus like, and and yeah, it's just so you can add numbers rather than like we really genuinely care about kids. Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 20:18
One of the other elements to that was true about the type of Christianity I was involved with is they were, I guess, Calvinist, maybe really predestination. And so I remember that there was this one guy, who every single week would talk about how he had back slid last week. And he had done drinking, and he was doing carousing, and he was so sinful, and confessing to these teenagers that he did all these horrible things, and, and how he was so sorry, but he knew that he was forgiven because he was chosen by God. Which I thought was deeply problematic. And then, much later, years later, I was actually sitting through a sermon, and the pastor said something to the effect of, you know, those times when you have doubt, and you don't really feel sure, that probably means that you don't have real faith. And, I mean, I just thought, oh, so I'm connecting the dots here. If you are chosen by God to have faith, but you don't always have strong faith, then you weren't chosen by God, Taffy. So you're not a Christian, and you won't go to heaven, because your faith is not solid is kind of like what he really meant to. So I sat down and had a conversation with him about it. I was like, so you're saying that if people are wobbly in their faith, and they question, that means they're going to hell? And he was kind of like, well, yes. Let me give you a book. Wow.

Arline 22:17
Naturally, it's Calvinists in their books. Here is another book, I can't have this conversation with you. But here is a dead guy, or possibly a dead guy who wrote a book and you can,

Speaker 2 22:28
I don't remember who the author was, but I read it. And it started out being like, this is a difficult topic. And then it went on and circular language and logic for 200 pages and ended with this is a difficult topic to understand and reckon with, you know, this came back to the point where we started, I was just like, what a waste of time? Yeah, so that was a, I think, actually, generally speaking, the evangelical and more Protestant churches are generally better at that initial love bombing phase and the Catholic Church. And that's probably how I ended up there really. Like, cuz I would go to a Catholic church here and there. And nobody really cares that somebody is new. They just, you know, because so many Catholics are kind of like getting their ticket punched. Yeah,

Arline 23:37
I feel like Catholicism is much more you're born into it and or you marry someone who's Catholic. So it's not really like, we're trying to add you. It's just Oh, you happen to be here. Okay.

Speaker 2 23:47
Yeah, no, I don't think that they do a whole lot of recruiting. At least they didn't, at least not in the United States. I should rephrase. I mean, I think they work very hard and recruiting people in

Arline 24:02
Africa. Okay, that makes a more Evan Jellicle version of Catholicism. That's an act never thought of that. I don't think that

Speaker 2 24:11
and I think that they are very much evangelicals. But they target their efforts in places where there's more poverty. So kind of comically in the United States, they never can find any priests. So most of the time, when you go to a Catholic Church, the priest will be from somewhere and in Africa, Kenya or Nigeria.

Arline 24:38
Interesting. Yeah.

Speaker 2 24:41
So it's been a long time since I went to a Catholic church, and it wasn't a person from another country, an African country. Oh, that's fascinating. Wow. It is kind of fascinating.

Arline 24:51
Yeah. At this point, are you in your 20s ish?

Speaker 2 24:54
I was. I did it for two summers. I was 16 the first summer and said And to the second. I had a dark night of the soul for about a year after that, because I felt like I want to be part of factory Christianity, I want to be in the real serious place, you know. And so I sort of had like a time off, and ended up meandering back into Catholicism for a few years. And I was very active in college and the Catholic Church, and then emerged out of college and immediately got married. Like one does, because I was at college, at least in my mother's perspective, for the ring before spring experience. Yes, I did go to a secular college. But I still knew I understood from my mother that I should get married. And that I should not work. I was should be a stay at home mother. Because my whole childhood, she said disparaging things about moms who worked. Yeah, so that was basically what I decided to do. And on top of that, I married the first American person that I dated. And so I mean, sort of a trigger warning, really, is that we had anticipated our vows. Right. And I felt at that time. Well, now we have to get married. And that was that. And, you know, fast forward to a whole year later on my wedding day. I didn't barely even like them. We got married anyway. And I don't know. 48 hours later, well, actually, during the wedding, somebody came up to me and said, Are you feeling okay? You look green. I felt like I was going to cast up my accounts the entire time. And the whole wedding was really for my mother anyway, like everything was to her specifications. And she had made the planning of the wedding like a living hell really? Like every time she didn't like something she would be like, I'm not going to come if you don't do it like this. And how can I have my beautiful mother at your wedding? If it's not a full Catholic mass? I can't have that. My mother would be heartbroken. She use that kind of manipulation for everything. But it was really intense with the wedding. Yeah.

Arline 28:01
So again, she's making you responsible for someone else's experience in the world.

Speaker 2 28:08
Yeah, all the time every day, in and out of every day. That was how our interactions were. So I don't think there is a time that ever wasn't like that. Gotcha.

Speaker 2 28:30
So, basically, the wedding was her wedding that I was in marrying a person that I didn't want to marry anymore. But felt I had to, because of the combination of her expectations for me. And my belief that her specific understanding of Christianity was accurate. Right, so 48 hours after the wedding or honeymoon, and I had a full mental breakdown, no ability to really process why I was freaking out or breaking down. But because like I really didn't understand the why behind why took all the the turns I did, and chose to do whatever I did. And I didn't understand what I was really so upset about even so My poor husband who were still married, even now, which is kind of crazy, but I sometimes wonder, but yeah, he's like, what's the matter? I don't understand what's happening. Like, and I was like, I don't have words. I don't know what's happening. All I know is like, I'm in the closet. I'm sobbing, the door is shut and I'm like rocking back and forth like a person who doesn't belong at all. honeymoon but institution being seen by a doctor. And like, there weren't thoughts going on. Like, I wasn't processing specific emotions, I was just absolutely panicking was like very dissociative i. And I don't understand that situation at all, either for years and years. So I mean, it's, it's interesting to me now, because I'm so far along we so we've been married for 14 years. And I have really taken the time to examine what the various things that I experienced in my childhood, what it was like, what the after effects of having a father who was very much absent, and a mother who used those tactics to parent. And what it made me think was normal in life, right. So like, even now, I'm still finding more things like recently discovering that I have very porous boundaries, and it affects me at work. sort of started to understand that my very dysfunctional parents parenting style sneaks into my parenting style. And trying to catch it when I can, but it happens, you know, I'm gonna be super careful never to talk about my emotions with the kids. Probably I take it too far.

Arline 31:51
Oh, that's interesting. Yeah.

Speaker 2 31:53
Yeah, it is. I think it's very important to, to have frank conversations with your kids, like when you do this, I feel like this, that's rational, healthy, relationship, conversation, but not in the crazy way that my mother did it. Like, when you take my favorite shirt, and paint in it, that makes me feel like you violated my boundaries. That's okay. But then when you say something, like, when you don't do the dishes, I know I'm a bad mother. That's, that's not okay. Which is, that's how my mother was. So, I mean, there's a really steep climb between the two. But because I do think people do need to be told when they do something, that you have a feeling but not their action, cause you're feeling it's your reaction to their action that's causing your feeling. I don't know, I'm still trying to work it all out. Even now. You know, that's no,

Arline 33:26
that's parenting and, and I think, different parenting things I've seen. You know, it's kind of like, with relational things, it's using I statements, like, I feel like this when this happened. And it doesn't, you know, it doesn't say know, you caused it or you're responsible for or it's your, it's just, like, I'm feeling I'm frustrated right now. Because, I don't know, for our family, it's usually math, because we're homeschool family and math is gonna kill us all. But like, like, you know, I'm frustrated or I'm sad or I'm hurt. But yeah, the emotional manipulation that becomes this whole other thing that that's really harmful and, and I have to be responsible for my own self and how to respond to stuff and yeah, and not expect my kids to have any that I also when I have teenagers do not want kids using my favorite shirt when they want to go paint. So there's that.

Speaker 2 34:23
Uh huh. Yeah. And yeah, you know, it's it is one of the thing that I find really fascinating about being an atheist now, is that when you take all of that loaded stuff, and you set it to the side, you can look at some of these things a lot more clearly. Like, it's not about whether or not you're sinning or you're, you know, reflecting the love of Jesus in your life. It's about are you respecting other people's some boundaries and needs? And are you maintaining your own boundaries and needs in response?

Arline 35:09
Or

Speaker 2 35:12
can you have a conversation with somebody else that is back and forth and constructive? Like, the tactics that my mother used, they weren't about having a back and forth, they were about getting compliance. So, you know, all of us were so like, we were like, on our tiptoes, being careful not to upset the very fragile emotional creature that my mother was. And I used to like, joke about it a lot. Like, I'd be like, oh, there was this time that mom came in, and she was upset, and she karate chopped the door and kicked the garbage can and split it in half. And wasn't that the funniest thing that's ever happened? Actually, you know, not very funny when you get back down to, because that was all because I think my dad was 20 minutes late or something. Like the reaction was, it was for show to get everybody to understand that her emotional state was presently upset. You know, and it had nothing to do with anything rational. And it wasn't funny.

Arline 36:50
So you mentioned being an atheist now, like, how did you get from Evangelical, nice wife to however you identify now? I mean, I'm sure you're still nice, but

Speaker 2 37:04
I'm significantly less Nice. That's good. It's good.

Arline 37:10
All right. I understand when you talked about having porous boundaries, like I can empathize with that, like, the number of people that ran over me simply because I couldn't say please don't do this, or please stop or I don't like this like, but go ahead.

Speaker 2 37:25
Yeah, no. So I remained very much an Evangelical, either as a Catholic or as a I guess they were Southern Baptists all the way up until 2019, I think. Okay. So it especially came back to full prominence in my life once we had moved down to a more rural Christian community and the the most effective ways to spend time with other mothers was through an organization called

Arline 38:06
mops. I signed up for mops paid my $30 went one time and never went back. Okay, go ahead. Tell us moms of preschoolers. Isn't that what it stands for moms are the

Speaker 2 38:17
swindlers and it was, you know, really nice to sit in a room with other moms, who were all going through all kinds of things that you experience with preschoolers. Probably not so nice, though, that was all tinged with that stuff that's so closely related to emotional manipulation. Like, there's a lot of shame to be induced in that environment, because there's so much strong feelings in Christian community about how to effectively parent your children. Like, Spare the rod, something the child, the child, Spare the rod, spoil the child Bible verse. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the child and so many of those moms were like that. There were a lot of them that were really compelled to do homeschooling, but not because of a rational reason like providing better education to their child or whatever. But more to protect them from the world and the influence of the world. But while I was in mops, my kids were nine and for eight, eight and four and then five and nine. Anyway, my oldest, already by that age started to show this very clearly that they were going to be LGBTQ. Okay. And I started to think about that, and what the environment in church would be like for them. And that started the ball rolling downhill because the church, I was going to bring the kids to said, you must sign this statement of beliefs. And one of the things on there was that marriage is between a man and a woman. And I categorically refuse to sign that because I am so deeply offended by the idea that if you are naturally inclined to marry somebody of the same sex, you should, therefore, suppress that desire, never have a close relationship or a partner in life and certainly not get married. I think that's appalling. And I don't think I could ever condemn my child to a life of aloneness and constant. Implicit shame for their identity.

Arline 41:13
Yes, implicit shame. That's a that's an excellent phrase, because you may not explicitly say it Christians may not explicitly, but those kids know exactly what you really, you know, what their parents really think? Yeah, sure.

Speaker 2 41:26
But it's, it's every time you're absolutely welcome here in this Christian space, so long as you never express you the reality of who you are, you know. And I was just like, I can't be a part of that. But then finally, the thing that broke the camel's back, so to speak, was this church forced me to be part of their Christian education program, because my kids were going to it. And so I'm in the class with kids, they were, I think, fifth grade or so older than my kids were at the time. And the lesson was based on like that Calvinist principle of faith, right? Do you have doubt? Or is your faith solid? And the lady facilitating the class asked all the children one question after another that I thought were incredibly insensitive and inappropriate, and she expected them to disclose their true experience about these things. And some of the questions were Did you ever lose faith when somebody you love died? Did you ever lose faith because your parents were suffering a financial crises? Did you ever lose faith? Because you're your friends were being mean to you? Did you ever lose faith because your pet died?

Arline 43:12
Like these questionably invasive questions?

Speaker 2 43:16
Yes, they were. And the lady was absolutely adamant. They all had to answer them. And she wrote their names on the board under yes or no. For each question. My kids weren't in the class. I feel like if they had been, it might have gone a little bit differently. But either way, by the end of the class, I was livid. I was like, steam was coming out of my ears. I was like, How dare you? And if I remember correctly, the kids had sat through the sermon where the pastor was saying, If you doubt, then you're not really chosen. So they're downstairs now being asked if they doubt forced to disclose whether they doubted and so therefore, now everybody knows whether you're chosen. I was just like, No, this is abusive. This is wrong. I'm not. I'm not for this. Anyway. Yeah. So I wrote a letter to the person who is in charge of the children's education program saying this is unacceptable. And received a letter back from the junior pastor who I thought was a friend saying, we all agree that this lesson was perfectly fine. And we don't understand what your problem is.

Speaker 2 44:55
Yeah, so I left the church and You'd think that was the nail in the coffin. But it wasn't I started thinking well, well, I gotta find a new church.

Arline 45:06
Yes, it was just this specific church. Not all, you know, hashtag Not all churches. Yeah, I am.

Speaker 2 45:12
But the nail in the coffin was I didn't leave the church and say anything that anybody that I was leaving it. I did not receive a call visit a text and email from even one person. Not one. Like you really do

Arline 45:31
genuinely have these relationships that you think are, you know, slightly solid relationship. Yeah. And then nothing. Yeah. Well, I

Speaker 2 45:42
mean, it was like, if that's not true, then is any of it true? Yeah. Like it? Yeah, yeah. No, like, How could any of it be true if they can't even like, call to see if I died? You know what I mean? Like, yeah. And I mean, the truth is that I had, I've always been a curious person. And I always question things. And I'm always like, reading everything I can get my hands on and exploring all kinds of different ideas and thoughts. So I had all of these sort of impulses and thoughts and ideas about the world that were in conflict with Christianity the whole time. But when the community element fails, I think that told me I was finally free. Because if that's, you know, they weren't really genuine. It wasn't true. So yeah. And then, you know, after that, I started listening to like Christopher Hitchens, and things like that. Listen to you

Arline 46:57
just, you just jumped. You just jumped right in, like, yeah.

Speaker 2 47:03
Well, yeah, because I was afraid before to explore that stuff. Because it meant probably, oh, I don't really have faith. And so I'm probably going to hell, right. But then the community fell through. And I was like, Oh, that's not true. Maybe nothing's true. And I started just, you know, I had a blast. I explored everything that I was terrified of exploring for, like, the next whole year, I tried to do a ritual with assaulted by it, my kitchen. husband walked in, he was like, What are you doing? And he laughed at me, that was embarrassing. So didn't really stay on that. Yeah. But, you know, I just, I researched and enjoyed and, and thought about all kinds of different cultures and ideas and, and slept well, for the first time in a long time. Because if there's no God, and you just die, then there's no point and having anxiety about whether or not you're good. You know,

Arline 48:16
you genuinely just do the best that you can with the resources that you have. And then it's like, okay, this feels so much less burdensome. Yeah, back whenever I was a Christian,

Speaker 2 48:27
and on top of that, when you do something good, it's because you are genuinely doing something that's good. And not because you're trying to rack up points. And when other people do something good. And you know, that they're not coming from that place, either. It's just because they're genuinely good. Yeah. And so, you know, for the first time I could be like, Oh, what do I really want for my life? How do I really feel about this kind of subject and that kind of thing? And I mean, I felt so much relief ache I mean, the joy of, of living each day with purpose and meaning knowing that there is an end to it, and therefore the time that you are spending has value. Yeah, yes. You know, and then when you do a bad thing, the person that you're hurting first is yourself because you wasted time in that bed space. They, I get asked the question sometimes by people who are still really religious, like, aren't you worried about what's coming next and you Don't you feel like life is lacking purpose and meaning. And I feel the exact opposite. I feel relief. So, I mean, it's kind of, it's kind of magical to never have to worry about that ever again.

Arline 50:24
Like I, I don't worry about hill in the same way that when I was a Christian, I didn't worry about whatever happens to people of other religions, like whatever their version of Hill is. So now it's just like I now have that extra thing I don't have to be concerned about. And then as far as, you know, how do you have meaning and purpose, like lots of people in the deconversion anonymous Facebook group and just in conversations, you create it yourself, you get the things that you used to have to fight for your love, because you needed to love God most. Now you can just like love your family, love your hobbies, love your job, love, nature, love, just whatever it is, and let it give your life meaning and purpose and enjoy it. And yeah, it's freeing, so freeing.

Speaker 2 51:09
So it really is. And then the other thing, too, is that the church, I was going to I don't know if that's true for every church, but they spent the lion's share of the money on the staff. And then the rest of money that came from tithing they spent on missionaries all over the world,

Arline 51:29
right. Southern Baptists, they have the whole Mission Board thing.

Speaker 2 51:33
Yeah, yep, exactly. And one time, they had like a financial meeting that I attended, and somebody stood up, and they were like, you know, there's a lot of poverty in our neighborhood. And I really was hoping that we could start doing some more, you know, generous things here in our own town. And the pastor was like, I mean, very, like, firmly opposed, and kind of mean to this lady about that. Now, I mean, we're not giving money to the church, I'm giving it directly to the things that I think really matter. And generally speaking, in my own community, which is also something I feel really good about. Yeah.

Arline 52:33
So we have a few more minutes. And again, is there anything that you wanted to talk about that I did not ask about?

Speaker 2 52:40
And I think we touched on all of the things except for the last thing, I guess, is that parenting kids free from religion. I mean, it's kind of revelatory to, in my home, my kids are split. 5051 of them is very much an atheist, it's the older of the two and the younger one still wants to believe in God. And, okay, I tell him, that's fine. You can explore all of the things in the world that give you joy and meaning and value. And, for me, I think that's one of the best things that I have experienced post Christianity is that I can encourage my kids to explore the world as well, which is something that I was simply not allowed to do. And so, getting to see my kids sort of explore the world with no shame or the burden of like, am I sinning? Am I pleasing God? Am I Am I, you know, checking all the boxes today? Is it is so inspiring, highly recommend it. Yeah. They'll likely grow up without all of the baggage that I have had to carry. And so that makes me feel really, really grateful.

Arline 54:31
Yeah, they'll have plenty of things that they have to figure out and deal with and grow through and struggle, but you're not adding to it by arbitrary rules that somebody made up 1000 years ago. That was for sure. Yes. Recommendations, anything you're loving right now, podcasts, books, anything or things that helped you in your deconversion so

Speaker 2 54:59
I'm in the very early days when I was first sort of putting my toes in the water, the thing that really helped me a lot was Jen Hatmaker. And I remember her, and Rachel Held Evans, the two of them. I mean, Rachel, who I mean, I grieved her, like she was my own family member, when she passed away, that was so hard. Her books, taught me how to sort of take all of the things that I had loved in Christianity, and give them space in a healthy way. So you didn't have to throw everything away. There were some things that are genuinely beautiful. And so that was such a gentle way to sort of come to terms with my new reality was Rachel Held Evans and Jen Hatmaker. Collected Works. And then I think, the the other thing, I always feel like it's very helpful, and especially during that early time, when you're just kind of feel a little unsettled, is to start having a practice of like mindfulness meditation. Because it helps you to connect to what is you and sort of sift through the things that don't come from your own feelings and perspective and identify the things that aren't serving you anymore. And slowly let them go. Sort of reconnect you with your body, which is like, I hate terms like that, which are like, sort of woowoo we're just kind of out in space. But that's the reality, right, is that you don't feel like you can trust your thoughts and feelings and intuition when you're a Christian. And so doing mindfulness meditation and starting to identify what are your thoughts and feelings? And what are those beliefs from before that are invading such a beautiful practice?

Arline 57:22
Yes, it really is. The language may sound, you know, woowoo, as some people would say, but it's like, there's a lot of science behind just like, letting things go letting your thoughts just go. Because they're just thoughts like Calvinism. I assume you read John Piper or listen to John Piper, it was all about like, fight your sin, fight your standby, your sin. And I found with mindfulness, I started learning that in 2018, I think, and it was like, not fighting it and just being like, that was just a thought. Yeah, it was like my whole nervous system was like, which I didn't have any of this language yet. But my whole nervous system could just be like, okay, you know, it's not evil, sinful, terrible, bad, all that, which just made me anxious all the time, constantly anxious. It was just like, oh, just, I thought it happened.

Speaker 2 58:12
Yeah, that's so true. And, and you're right, this science is very compelling that you can fundamentally repair and rebuild the structures in your brain that have been damaged by a long time. of you know, feeling trauma or dissociation or being disconnected from your own intuition. This is like a neuro programming and then Neurofeedback and neuroplasticity can change. And yeah, so you can actually really start to heal. And so yeah, mindfulness meditation is so much top of mind for recommendation for anybody who's, especially if you're dealing with recovering from emotional covert abuse. Because it just adds this extra burden of identifying what's really true. And it's not, it's not an easy road. I'll be trying to recover from it for the rest of time. But I'm better than I was yesterday. And so I'll be probably better tomorrow than I was today. And that's a relief.

Arline 59:31
Well, Megan, thank you so much for telling your story. It was lovely having you on today.

Speaker 2 59:35
Thanks so much for having me. It was really wonderful to get to share.

Arline 59:44
My final thoughts on the episode I really appreciated Megan's transparency about when it came to parenting, and how, like as much as we want to be different than our parents. When they parented us in a way that was really harmful, like that stuff still creeps into our own parenting. And they're scary, and it's sad. But it's also an opportunity for us to apologize to our kids to be open and honest with our kids at developmentally appropriate things, of course, but to just let them know that we're not perfect, we don't have it all figured out. But we do love them, love them so much. Those are things at least I know, for me, not getting an apology from a parent not ever feeling like they could acknowledge that they had done anything wrong or harmful. That's hard. But we can give that to our kids. We can be humble and kind we can be all the things that they tell you, the Holy Spirit will make you. But we don't have to have all that we can just be those things in and of ourselves to our kiddos. Also, your I know meditation is not for everybody. But like just mindfulness, just the idea of paying attention to what's happening right inside our bodies right in front of us. For me, it has been so helpful. It was one of the things that got me out of Christianity, I started realizing how much learning mindfulness was helping me when praying was not praying was making me anxious, because I did not know if God was going to help this time. Whereas mindfulness was like, I can just watch my thoughts float. Well, I guess the image I used was a waterfall ride right off of this waterfall. It wasn't anxiety and stress all the time. So yeah, five stars highly recommend their apps for learning mindfulness. Yeah, Megan, thank you so much for being on the podcast. It was a delightful conversation. I really enjoyed it.

David Ames 1:01:52
The secular Grace Thought of the Week is embrace your imperviousness to religious guilt. I was listening to a Christian message recently, and I realized how much it did not apply to me. I could definitely hear the manipulation and the guilt trip within the message. And it was very peaceful to know I was impervious to that guilt trip because it does not apply to me anymore. It doesn't apply to you anymore. Don't let it hurt you affect you. bother you in any way. Next week, another one from Arline. She'll be interviewing Jeff, you do not want to miss that episode. Until then, my name is David and I am trying to be the graceful atheist. Join me and the graceful The beat is called waves by MCI beads. If you want to get in touch with me to be a guest on the show. Email me at graceful atheist@gmail.com for blog posts, quotes, recommendations and full episode transcripts head over to graceful atheists.com This graceful atheist podcast the atheists United studios Podcast Network

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Kris: Former Christian Leader to the Least of These

Deconstruction, ExVangelical, LGBTQ+, Mental Health, Podcast, Women Leaders

This week’s guest is Kris. Kris grew up in a home with much wounding and suffering, an irreligious home that would shape her desire for God as a young adult. She became a christian when she was 22—a “poor, broken young mom.”

For years, Christianity worked well for her. She found community, built a family, made friends. Church gave her a place to use her abilities and passions, but there was always a glass ceiling.

In 2017, she and a friend went to a “biblical archeology” seminar. For the first time, Kris was learning from professors, not pastors, and the questions started coming. It wasn’t long before Kris realized she couldn’t go to church or be in a home group. She didn’t have the language for what was happening, but now she knows it was the beginning of her deconstruction.

A strong leader with a kind and compassionate heart—and a love for Ozzy Osbourne—Kris is enjoying the life she’s found beyond religion.

Quotes

“I started reading this Bible, and I didn’t have any bias. I didn’t have anybody telling me what it meant…so I could just read it as a text and take it at face value or what I thought it meant, which was great.”

“I learned that I was a Big Time People Pleaser…whatever it took to fit in, I was going to try to do that.”

“Everything began to feel really corporate in this church.”

“I had this intense fear of pride.”

“I had this duel belief of ‘God is this good, kind, loving god,’ and ‘But what if I piss Him off, and He’s not that nice?!’”

“I realized that my image of God was basically my senior pastor from the church I was at, and if I tried to imagine God…I would hear this guy’s voice.”

“…everything just started unraveling in my faith. I realized I couldn’t read the Bible anymore. I couldn’t listen to any Jesus music anymore…I would get uncomfortable. I would feel anxious. I didn’t understand what was happening. I didn’t ever think that this could be considered religious trauma.”

“Coming out is hard, no matter what you’re coming out with.”

Interact

David’s intevew on Harmonic Atheist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMKNwVRzlJk

Join the Deconversion Anonymous Facebook group!

Graceful Atheist Podcast Merch!
https://www.teepublic.com/user/gracefulatheistpodcast

Support the podcast
Patreon https://www.patreon.com/gracefulatheist
Paypal: paypal.me/gracefulatheist

Deconversion
https://gracefulatheist.com/2017/12/03/deconversion-how-to/

Secular Grace
https://gracefulatheist.com/2016/10/21/secular-grace/

Attribution

“Waves” track written and produced by Makaih Beats

Transcript

NOTE: This transcript is AI produced (otter.ai) and likely has many mistakes. It is provided as rough guide to the audio conversation.

David Ames 0:11
This is the graceful atheist podcast United studios podcast. Welcome, welcome. Welcome to the graceful atheist podcast. My name is David, and I am trying to be the graceful atheists. Please consider rating and reviewing the podcast on the Apple podcast store, rate the podcast on Spotify, and subscribe to the podcast wherever you are listening. Remember, we have a merchandise store on T public to get all your graceful atheist and secular Grace themed items, you can find the link in the show notes. Recently, I was on harmonic atheists YouTube channel, I'm gonna have the link for that interview in the show notes. I'd love to have Tim on here at some point in time, but it was really wide ranging, very interesting conversation. Love for you guys to check that out. On today's show, my guest today is Chris. Chris became a mom very young. There were mental health issues in her birth family, and she experienced some mental health issues. She then had a fairly dramatic turn towards Christianity, and threw herself into it wanted to become a leader went through theological training, and started at a mega church, where the reality of women and leadership began to suppress what she was able to do. She did have opportunities to reach the least of these the people that she cared about the underdogs in her terms. But there were things she knew she could not tell her Christian colleagues and friends. Eventually she went on a trip with a focus on biblical archaeology. And she was learning things about the Bible for the first time. And that began her deconstruction process. Today, Chris experiences a lot of freedom on the other side of deconstruction. Here is Chris, to tell our story. Chris, welcome to the graceful atheist podcast. Thank you. So I was just looking at our email it took us since August to make this happen. So I'm really glad that you're here. I understand you've been a part of the Facebook group as well. So I'm excited to hear your story.

Kris 2:25
Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, it's really been helpful being on that Facebook group. And you know, just seeing other people that have gone through similar things. And very grateful for that. Yeah, fantastic. Yeah, I guess I'll just start. You know, unlike a lot of people on the Facebook group, or some of the stories we've heard, I didn't grow up in the church. And, you know, had no, really no basis of religion. My family didn't do anything. I think the only time I was ever in a church was when my mom got married when I was 10. And so, didn't really know much. But for some reason, as a kid, I was always drawn to like, like, I played a little toy organ. And it had somebody gave me a like a book with hymns in it. And I loved playing the hymns. And, you know, there were things like that, that I was drawn to. So I really didn't become a Christian until 1993. I was 22. And kind of want to talk about that. But I have to give a little bit of history. Sure. So when I was when I was a kid, I was my mom was a single mom. And we were poor. We lived in West Texas, and I live in Oregon now. But when I was 11, my mom took her life and I got bounced around from family member to family member and I ended up with my grandmother, who I lived with till I was 16 and moved out with my boyfriend then. So that's kind of a little brief. Background while I'm

David Ames 4:07
very sorry, it's been very difficult.

Kris 4:09
Thank you. I appreciate that. It was and my family. We dysfunctional family. You know, we didn't talk about it. Being an only child, it was very lonely. My mom was kind of neglectful of me. You know, I don't think anybody knew if she was depressed or had bipolar or anything like that, you know, this was the this was 81 When she died, but you know, and our family wouldn't have talked about in any way you know, we just a lot of alcoholism and you know, later found out mental health struggles and so whenever my mom died, I you know, as a teenager, I was 11 and then you know, living in I moved to this new mexico town with my grandmother, but you know, I didn't know how to deal with anything, and didn't really have any help. I think my grandmother tried to take me to counseling one time, and that was the only time I went, and, and she never really wanted to talk about it, you know, she had lost her child and probably didn't know how to grieve that as well. So so there was just no healthy outlets there. And so when I was about 14, I just started acting out, you know, partying, and, you know, sleeping around, doing all the things, and moved out at 16. And, you know, still graduated high school with honors, and, you know, started college and you know, tried to do the things. But I ended up getting pregnant. And so, my first year of college, and I ended up marrying, the guy that I'd moved out with, you know, had a baby quit college, all these things ended up just being this, this very poor, broken, single mom, and I didn't really want to be a mom. So anyway, all that that was, you know, I got a job and just ended up divorcing the guy after 11 months, but you know, had the baby and all that.

So 1993 rolls around, you know, I'd been, I had a three year old, I'd been, you know, partying for a long time, I'd been just, you know, doing all the kind of same stuff my mom had done, you know, leaving my child at random babysitters, and just, I was pretty miserable. I was very depressed, and I didn't want to live anymore. And so I just, you know, decided to take my kid to my daughter to daycare, and then come home and just, you know, take all the stuff I had, and, and end it all. Oh, wow. And. And, as I was contemplating that, I looked up on the wall and saw a picture of me and her and just, I guess, heard this voice in my mind saying, you know, do you want her to grow up to be like you. And that was a really pivotal moment for me. And, you know, at that time, it was a God moment I attributed to. And that's what kind of changed my life and toward, towards spirituality toward faith. And so, I decided not to take my life that day, which was great. And I started going to, I started well, I actually I pulled out a Bible and started reading a Bible. You know, that I'd gotten, I think, when I was in junior high, my grandmother took me to some youth groups, you know, and dropped me off hoping that would help me not be a messed up, kid. And so fix them. Yeah. And it actually was a good experience. You know, it was, you know, I met some other kids. And, you know, it just, it was a good experience for me, and, but I still had a Bible that they had given me that I never opened. And so I started reading this Bible. And, you know, I didn't, I didn't have any bias. I didn't have anybody telling me what it meant, or anything like that. So I could just read it as a text and take it for face value are what I thought it meant, which was great. I'd like to be able to go back and do that again. Just just, you know, like, reading any book. But no. So anyway, that's kind of where I started. And, you know, I started trying to find churches to go to and just because the words in the Bible, I think, I didn't know, you know, I didn't understand, you know, people would always say, Jesus died for your sins. I was like, I know what that means. You know, and, and for some reason is, I started thinking about that. And didn't understand the whole sin thing. But I knew that I was, I was feeling like something in this God thing cared about me. And that's what I needed most of all in my life, because I had, you know, just, I had abandonment issues. I'd been neglected I, you know, was seeking love and all the wrong places. And you know, so it's like, oh, wow, if, if, if I could be loved that would fix everything. And so, so yeah, so that was what I did. And like, six months after that, I answered an ad in the newspaper back in the olden days before online dating. And I met this super guy, and he was a new Christian. And so we kind of started our lives together, and we've been married 27 years now. But it was, you know, it was it was kind of how we started out and we lived in at that time, we lived in Lubbock, Texas. West Texas bible belt, you know, every if everybody's a Christian pretty much, or at least it feels that way. But we ended up moving two hours north to Amarillo, which is same thing, you know. And so we were looking for a church and we tried a couple places. And we went to this one church and went there for a little while, and we wanted to get involved, you know, we just wanted to, you know, we didn't know anybody, we needed to get involved, and we liked kids. So there's they said, Okay, well, we'll do an interview to see if you could, you know, help with the youth or help something. And one of the questions, they had us fill out this questionnaire, and one of the questions was, how many people have you led to Christ? And we were like, I guess? You know, that's not something we really think about much, you know, and that, for some reason, I felt so guilty. I was like, Oh, I haven't done this thing. This, I should be doing this. This is something I should be doing for God. And I think part of it was because the interview with the guy was like, you know, if you're not doing that, are you really a Christian? You know, that kind of thing. Right? We didn't end up getting involved at that church, we're gonna be going to a different church that didn't quizzes so much about, you know, how we did all that. But we did get involved in and, you know, we taught, you know, Sunday school and stuff like that. And my husband is, he's just this playful, wonderful guy that, you know, I would be like, Okay, I want to sit down and read you this Bible story. And he's like, I got a cool game. Let's do that. And so, you know, he was popular. And I was like, alright, you know, maybe I should try. We're adults. So I did. Yeah. So yeah, so I started just getting involved and went through kind of a program. That was like a lay ministry program. And it was really great. I learned a lot about myself learn some counseling skills, even though that's not what it was. And, and, you know, learned how to be a little bit more assertive, a little less passive aggressive, but also learned that I was a big time people pleaser, and no surprise, I mean, you know, I just, all my life just wanted somebody to, you know, just to love me and to accept me, I think, as I was. And I think even though I thought God did, I still was like, not sure, like, I probably need to be a certain way, you know, for anybody to like me, I found that I was the kind of person that would just kind of blend in, do whatever was expected in that circle, whether it was with friends, or any social environmental work, or church, whatever it took to fit in, I was going to try to do that. But I was just really like, you know, I just addict, this Christianity stuff. And, you know, want to commit my life to it. And so that church, they advertise that they were going to partner with Dallas Christian college to get, you know, if people wanted to go there and get a degree in ministry, and I was like, Oh, yes, that's exactly what I want to do. And so by that time, I had another child, two girls, nine years apart, and, but they had it set up where it was a program that, you know, it's like a two year program. And you know, it's our first online program. So you're gonna go to eight week class, and then another eight week class, another eight week class. And so it was lined out where you had to do it a certain way to graduate in this program, and I didn't have enough credits. So I started, I started the program, but also had to take, like some online classes or some, whatever you call it, when they send you the books. Anyway, I don't know how to take some correspondence classes, and also was attending class at our local community college. So I was taking tons of hours of school, I was working full time had this little kid, you know, husband, who was great with kids, thankfully, and really supportive. And so, you know, I was working my ass off. Because I wanted this degree so bad. And, I mean, I remember there was one term one semester when I took 21 hours, and I was so depressed and so apathetic and so depleted, you know, and never thought twice about, you know, what am I doing this for right now, but I was like, you know, I have to do this I have to push through because this is, this is going to, I think, what I thought is it would give me value and, you know, identity maybe, you know, and, and, and I was just passionate, I loved it. You know, I just, I loved to study and And to learn and just eat it up

so I ended up getting to that point. So it's like my last couple of classes, I think I started emailing the church that we'd been going to and that we'd been involved with. And I was like, got any positions open? I'd really like to work there. Yeah. So I did, yeah. Did that for, I don't know, maybe about six months. Finally. They called and they said, we do have a position open for an assistant. And would you like an interview? I'm like, Yeah, sure. And that was fine. You know, I didn't want to be an assistant. I wanted to be in like, you know, right. Big Dog School, like, you know, yeah. But, you know, I'm, like, foot in the door, saw good. And I did not understand the whole patriarchal thing. You know, and I guess I just thought, hey, you know, what, I'm a smart, strong woman. I was that strong. I was just headstrong. But, you know, had these ideals, you know, and I'm thinking, I'll get in there, they'll see how great I am. I'll be doing ministry and doesn't work that way. Although it worked out. But um, so I got the job. And I was excited. And you know, it was really fun. And it was, it was a church, it was a nondenominational church. And in Texas, there's a lot of those and some of them are, you know, like, holy, rollin, and some aren't, and some are kind of in the middle, and we were some than in the middle. But the year that I started working, there was in 2003. And then in 2005, we got a new pastor, new senior pastor, a man of Big Vision. Okay, and so our church was we had about like, maybe 1800 people, members, and sidenote, church membership annoys the hell out of me stupidest thing ever. You know? What, you have to be a member who is so special now I'm expected to type.

David Ames 17:08
That's exactly what it is. It is it's expected.

Kris 17:12
Yeah, that's like, okay, and I didn't like it back then. Never liked it when I worked there. But what do you get to do? So anyway, so this, this guy that comes in our church had bought some land out, like in the southwest of town that we were going to eventually move to when we had the money. And because we were really landlocked where we were. And when, when he came in, that became his primary focus, you know, we're gonna build the church out there, it's going to be huge. You know, we're going to be growing, growing, growing, we're going to change all kinds of things. And it was scary. It was exciting. A lot of people left the church because they were not comfortable with that kind of change. And totally understandable. There was another church similar to ours, so they went there, you know, and, but we also, as we built and started sending out flyers and rebranding, and all that, you know, got a whole bunch of new people coming in. And, and it was a neat place. It was huge. It was beautiful. He started hiring more people. And the idea was that everything would be done with excellence. Everything was about how good it looked. And how I don't know. Perfect. It was right. Right. Yeah. And it, you know, at the time, I was like, That's really nice. I mean, that's, that's really pretty. And, you know, I'm glad that you know, it's not junky and cluttered, because I like things organized, but at the same time, you know, we started to have our own communications team where we couldn't create our own fliers or signs for the door, things like that, because, you know, no, clipart Yeah, I get that. But, and that was fine. But there was he had this vision and he had a brand in mind. And he was he was a guy with the his father was a business owner, he grew up rich, he grew up with a business mindset. Which, fine, whatever, that's great. But everything started to feel really corporate. Yeah, in in this church, and like, everything had to grow everything had to it was all about image, you know, and there's some churches that are like that, I think. You know, there's a humility in some of them. And this one, there wasn't, although I defended him and the church, you know, to everybody who came down on it. I'm like, no, there. He is humble. He just wants more for Jesus. You know, And, you know, I was bought in. There was one time when we had a staff meeting, when we first moved down into that building. And he gave us a while he was always preaching at us, and he also bragged about how he talked a lot. And he does, he did talk nonstop. And he, he would talk to us about things, and he was very good at compelling you, you know, a very convincing person and saying, you know, if you're not 100%, bought into our vision, and our mindset and our plan, I want you to quit today. And, you know, we'll support you for the next month trying to find another job. But if you're not bought in, you need to leave. Which, in some ways is great, you know, because then, you know, you get everybody who's on board, everybody's on the same page, we're like, rah, rah, you know, but also, at the same time, you're kind of creating clones in a way. And, you know, there's no thinking for yourself, or having that creative, you know, thought process of your own. And I didn't understand that at the time, you know, and so I was like, Yes, I'm bought in, you know, go, go go, of course, I'm doing the thing I always did just blend in fit in, you know, be the be the same as everyone else. So that, you know, everybody likes you and things work out,

David Ames 21:24
which is perfectly normal, by the way. Yeah. I talk a lot about that. I think beliefs are tied to community. And that was an explicit call to that, you know, if you want to be a part of this, you have to be 100%. And or you need to leave now, it's not always explicit like that. Sometimes it's much more implicit. But, you know, if I don't uphold these particular beliefs, or these standards, or these behaviors, then I'm no longer part of that community and riots really threaten.

Kris 21:50
Yeah, exactly. And maybe the words don't sound threatening, but it feels that way. Now these obviously, we're, you know, hey, if you're not bought in, you know, you need to quit, because pretty much will probably fire you. But we we were also told not around that same time. You know, we don't put up with gossip, you know, it's wrong, it's sinful. And he didn't define gossip. You know, a lot of people have different definitions, but he's like, if you get caught gossiping, you're gonna be fired.

So that started this fearful mentality of not being able to vent to your co worker or to question something, you know, you got it was like, you couldn't talk basically about things without having to have your church face on. And, you know, be like, Well, praise God, everything's great. You know, and which that really wasn't true. But that's, that's how it felt like, you know, suddenly, I'm not allowed to think to speak out loud of some things that I might be thinking about that can be contradictory to anything. So kept it inside. And, sidenote, I did have to keep things inside because, you know, we're southwest Texas. This is a mega church, by this time. Everybody, and I'm saying everybody, and I know that's a big word, but it's pretty much true is conservative, and, you know, doesn't approve of many things. And so I was a Democrat, couldn't tell anybody. Some things came out later that, you know, definitely couldn't tell anybody but you know, I want to, by the time I left the church, it was there was a staff of 100. And there were three Democrats on staff and we knew it, the three of us we didn't tell anybody because we knew we would get backlash, a lot of guys with guns and not shy about telling everybody that they bring them to church every every Sunday, you know, and that kind of thing, even talking about it openly on staff. But there was a time when I was just happily doing my job and walk into the break room and senior pastor, I keep keep debating fresh, his name. Senior Pastor walks in behind me, we're the only people in there and he says, So I hear you're a Democrat. And my editor inside self was like, oh shit. I mean, you know, what do I say? And, um, you know, my stomach's clenching, and I'm getting a nervous and I'm like, and he goes, Well, I tend to, you know, I'm an independent, you know, and blah, blah, blah. He's like, but you know, I'm just curious. And I knew the question was coming, why are you a Democrat? You know, and, and I'd, you know, kind of him hot and I'm like, Well, you know, human rights, things like that, you know, care about people kind of don't, don't want to go the other direction because it's Usually not caring about people. And but I was nervous, you know, this guy's so above me and influential and I loved my job and yeah, he's like, Okay, well, I was just wondering and you know, it never, it didn't occur to me to think about why is he asking me, you know, what does he care? What's he afraid of? You know, I mean, but that's just how the culture in Texas is, you know, or at least, you know, that area of Texas for sure that it is so far fetched for anybody to be Christian and Democrat, they just the two don't go together.

David Ames 25:34
And that's a heavy power imbalance there wasn't, you know, it wasn't actually threatening your job or something. There's an implied threat. Exactly. Yeah.

Kris 25:43
Yeah. And, and I wasn't sure what direction that could go, you know, and so, I was, I was nervous, I was uncomfortable. And it's something that now I'm like, I don't have to defend myself to you, I can believe anything I want, you know, and you can believe what you want to, and that's fine. We can just go about our business. But at the time, I was, Oh, I was just easily intimidated. But eventually, prior to that, you know, I'd been working at that church for quite a while. And they finally said, you know, we're going to take three of our assistants that have really been, you know, instrumental in ministry, and we're going to basically give us a promotion. And so I'm like, Yeah, finally, get to be, you know, an ordained pastor or whatever. Now, they just called us associates. And they told us, we couldn't be ordained because we weren't men. But we could be licensed because we're women. And we couldn't be pastors, because we weren't men, but we could be ministers. Not sure what the difference is something they made happen, wrote into some bylaws and did some things, but it made me feel good. And, you know, they, you know, basically, we ended up being able to file clergy taxes. So we're, we're filing the same tax status, we're doing the same jobs. You know, we're not getting paid the same. We're not getting the same respect or recognition. I did get an office, but I later had to give up that office because they hired a man, pastor that needed an office. So you know, wow, go back to the cubicle girl. You know, yeah, stupid, you know, and trying to, you know, I don't know, trying to do things in a cubicle when you're trying to pay attention, and you're writing, you know, teaching and stuff. Like, that's hard. But

David Ames 27:37
you don't have to, you don't have to defend. Sir, it's totally absurd.

Kris 27:42
Well, it is. And, you know, at the time, I mean, they were like, oh, Chris, you are so good. You are so kind to do that, you know, thank you for giving up your office, you know, and, and I remember even one time the pastor I had offered to help. My boss, even though I was not an assistant anymore, we didn't really have an assistant. So I'd offered to help her in some assistant roles. And he brought me up in front of the whole staff and went on and on and on. Look at this humility, look how kind she is, look at how great she is. And, you know, that was really uncomfortable. But it also during this whole period of my church life, I had this intense fear of pride. And, and I think that was built into me in from the church, from whatever scriptures are read, I don't know. But there was this intense fear that something I do is going to be considered prideful by God. And, you know, that would be really bad. And so I was always trying not to be proud of myself or, you know, be a leader, even though I'm a natural leader. I mean, I would be, like, just repress a lot of things in me. Because, you know, I don't want to be proud. I don't want to be full of myself. I don't want to be arrogant or anything like that, you know, God might do whatever God does strike me down or something which I, you know, had this, this dual belief of, you know, God as a gracious, good, kind, loving God. But also, what if I piss him off? And he's not that nice, you know? So, you know, it's like, there's this idea of grace that we would preach about, but I don't know. It never really made sense to say that God is love, but if you do something wrong, they send you to hell and you know, or not really, if you do something wrong, if you don't, you know, follow his son and you're going to hell and these two things don't jive. But you know, at the time, I was very fearful and you know, you can You can always find a way to explain things to yourself. That makes sense.

David Ames 30:03
Absolutely. Yeah. Well, with hindsight, it's it's super pain it is. And

Kris 30:08
it's kind of like you were saying about community being, you know, what you're around is what you believe in. And so if you don't have anything around you to challenge those beliefs, then sometimes you just stay that way, and you're happy, and you're just trucking along. And I think that's, you know, that's the big thing about what did challenge my beliefs was that we ended up moving

some of the things that really, I had a hard time with, that kind of just go along again, with this idea of controlling what we believe and what we think, what we say how we act? Well, two things, one of the things was when the new pastor came, he immediately told us, we are no longer going to say these words, we're going to say these words. So no longer do we have a stage, we had a platform, we didn't have a church bulletin, it was a program. You didn't have a sanctuary, it was the auditorium. A minister was now a pastor. People walking in the front door were guests and it very, very strict. These are the things we say. And we don't deviate from that. Because we need to all look like we're on the same page, we're all together a consistency. We also had to had very strict rules, which I guess some churches do, most churches do, but about the opposite sex, we couldn't be alone in a room with the opposite sex, we couldn't be alone in a car with a member of the opposite sex. If you're going to hug somebody, you can do a side hug nothing else, you know, didn't want anybody to get the impression that you, you know, could be doing something immoral or wrong. And that was so ingrained in me that even now, I haven't worked there and nine years, 10 years, almost 10 Even now, if I go to give a guy a hug, I feel uncomfortable, you know, coming in farther than a side hug, you know, or being alone in a car with a guy. And, you know, my husband trusts me, I trust me. I mean, you know, and I have male friends. So but it's still like this ingrained thing that and that was the thing about this guy, he was just so good at convincing you of stuff, you know, and I was easily swayed. Just it's it's like a, you know, an a narcissistic relationship with someone who's, you know, but I wouldn't. He's not clinically narcissist. But it'd be fun to call him that. But anyway, he's not.

David Ames 32:48
I think it was just safe to say that he's very charismatic and a leader in the sense of potentially manipulating people around him.

Kris 32:56
Yes, I'm used to getting his way. And yeah, exactly. Yeah, he very much wanted our church to be one of the biggies, you know. And there were there were certain people that he would follow that we would go to their, whatever big conferences they'd have, and stuff like that. And he would, you know, imitate our church to look like theirs. We also we expanded our campuses. And so Supposedly, the small churches in small towns would come to us for advice. It started in our own town, but then it branched out to small towns around us, and come to us for advice or come to him for advice. And he would tell them how to make their church, you know, get more people and stuff like that. But it would get to the point where we would take over their church, and they would have to brand everything exactly like us had to look exactly the same have the same fonts and all the things and we would he would preach on the weekend and it would be by video in their church. So it's like, okay, if you want to, if you want your church to get help from our church, you better be ready pastor not to be preaching anymore. Because, yeah, hope that's not your passion. So it was we did that with, I don't know, seven or eight other churches. I didn't like it. I didn't like it at the time. But one of the things that got to me about it was so our church was in an affluent part of town and I was never that way but it that's just kind of, we catered to the rich. I remember having a conversation with one of the pastors one time had been there a long time. And when I first started working there, he's like, he's like, Well, what do you feel like God, you know, calls you Who do you feel like God calls you to minister to and I'm like, the underdog. I'm always about the underdog, the defenseless the helpless, the homeless, you know, the Poor. And he's like, you know, I'm called to preach to the rich. And I'm like, oh, okay, let's go. Just, I mean, just yet loud. That's fine. I mean, I guess rich people needed Jesus too. But anyway, but that's how it felt at this church for so long. And we finally ended up getting this campus in the northeast side of town, which was a very poor part of town. And there was a lot of refugees and immigrants. And this campus, when I heard about it, I was like, I want to go work there. I still want to be a part of that, you know, because that was where my heart was. And they're like, no, no, you need to stay here. You're doing things. I'm like, all right. But none of our campuses, except that one ever really did anything for like, you know, the helpless and the homeless and the helpless in the filming. Just, you know, it was weird, and, you know,

David Ames 35:53
people Jesus talks about, yes,

Kris 35:56
exactly. You know, and so, had I been really pushed to keep the status quo, then that would have been hard, but I think I was lucky. And because I think they knew that I wasn't like everybody else at our campus. So I got to, you know, I had opportunities to do great things. And I was really grateful at the time because I got to start up, suicide Grief Support System, started as a group, and it became a whole thing where we were, you know, helping a lot of communities across, like about a 200 mile span, and that, that I kept doing after I left the church, and that was really a passion of mine, but also got to, like, they let me use the bus barn, you know, an old kind of warehouse thing that we had, and, and I got some people to donate clothing and furniture, and all this, and I worked with Catholic Charities in town to furnish apartments for refugees. And so just got a bunch of buddies, that church, and we'd go do that on the weekends, and it was just a great thing. And then I also got to work in recovery and oversee our, you know, Celebrate Recovery. And so at least I had the opportunity to be with the people that I wanted to be with, you know, the, you know, people that are just stopped on the street, you know, and it was, I'm very grateful for those years.

David Ames 37:29
You know, I think it's important to say, as well, that people like yourself, who you genuinely care about people, the church is your opportunity to actually, you know, help people. Yeah, and it gives you a platform to do that. Right. You know, I'm sure there's rest of the story, and it's too bad there is but like, your natural desire to care for people is good. And, you know, I'm glad to hear that you had opportunities to actually execute on that.

Kris 37:56
Yeah, and I think you're right, you know, and I think a lot of people I've known, you know, that's, that's part of what they've loved about going to church is having the opportunity to do good for others, you know, get involved in whatever way and, and, you know, when we moved here, we started going to a church that was very community oriented, they cared a lot about the homeless, and you know, they didn't spend money on carpet. They, you know, their building was old and running down, but they spent all their money on like the community and what they could do to help other people and I was really a nice change. I loved it, you know.

One last thing about the, that church and the senior pastor was that everything was trendy, you know, name brand, everything, spend lots of money on things, you know, and then all the people I worked with, it felt like all the guys they had to dress just like him, you know, read the same books, you know, try to impress them. Everybody on staff, it felt like we were always competing for his favor. We have to be the funniest the trendiest the coolest, you know, the wittiest the smartest, oh, I've been studying blah, blah, you know, well, I read Socrates or whatever, you know, and it was always things like that. And that was an area in which I felt so insecure. Because, you know, I'm smart, I'm funny, I'm all those things, but I, I definitely am not trendy. I can name drop brands. And he's talking, you know, on Sunday morning about, oh, well, you know, get your call Hans and your blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, I don't even know what you're saying. But that was just a common thing. And it was all always about image and always about impressing him, you know, and, and so, I lived with this For years, and this will come into play in a minute when want to talk about why I had to start deconstructing. So in 2014, we, my husband and I, we had talked about moving to Oregon before, and we thought, well, we might retire there because we love it, you know, and rural West Coast kind of people. And but our kiddo, in 2013, we went through some really tough times with our youngest child, and in 2014, or maybe 2013, they came out as gay. And, and, you know, my husband's first thing to them was you couldn't have picked a better family to be gay. And you know, and so there was never any issue with that for us. But that was another area at that time where I'm like, I can't tell anybody at church, I can't tell anybody I work with, I might lose my job, because they had already, like, they hadn't fired anybody for something like that. They had taken this, there was an instance of a young man, I knew who was working in the children's area, and they thought he was gay. Nobody knew he was gay. And they removed him from there, because they were afraid he was gay. And you know, if you're gay, you're gonna corrupt children. Right? So, you know, you gotta turn everybody gay. Yeah, exactly. And, and so gay will rub off on people. Yeah, right. You know. And so, knowing that that had happened, I'm like, I tell anybody, something's gonna happen. I can't say anything, you know, which is terrible, you know, and it's not like, I was gonna go tell anybody anyway, it's, you know, my kids pleased to come out. But you know, worrying, okay, now who's going to find out? What are they going to do? You know, things like that. And, and at the same time, getting all these, this preaching about homosexuality, getting taught to and a huge staff meeting about homosexuality and how we've got to, you know, what can we do to fight this beast or whatever it is. And, you know, so I'm getting all this all the same time, and it was really hard to. I felt like, like, while I loved and accepted my kid and had no problem with it, I felt terrible on the inside, because I'm like, I am not pleasing God, you know. So there was that whole thing, but But in 2014, we decided to move to Oregon. And my kid was in my oldest had already graduated, moved away. And graduated college, and my youngest was a junior in high school. And at that time, Sam was female. He's, he's trans. And so he's since you know, transitioned. And so and we didn't, we didn't really know everything, but he was we were like, you know, we'll stay here until you graduate, whatever you need to do. He's like, You know what, let's just go. Let's just see what it has has to offer, you know, we're not going to know if we like it till we get there. And like, wow, genius kid, let's do that. You know, and so we did. And that's when he came out to us once we moved here that he was trans. And so we were like, Okay, this is new. And at the time, he used the pronouns, I'd never heard that before. And, you know, it's like, okay, you're gonna have to teach me some things because that all Yeah, that's plural. Of course, I've learned a lot since then, you know, but yeah, it felt good that we could just be open about it as a family, and we didn't have to be afraid of who might find out anything. You know, and we started going to church, we joined a home group because we hosted a small group in our house for like, seven years and loved that environment, you know, and so we joined a home group so we could get to know people and, and that was all good for the first two years. It was it was good. We had fun. It was, you know, it was what we needed at the time, and it helped us transition to a new city. I when we first moved here, I I tried to find a job as a pastor somewhere. And, you know, they just don't hire a lot of pastors in Portland. I don't know what's up with that. Not a very religious city. It isn't. But I ended up getting a job with the Department of Human Services working with people with disabilities. And, you know, and I've been there ever since. And I love it. And I'm an assistant and I'm happy and I don't care. And I just love it, you know, work with like minded people that want to do good for others, and so it's great.

After we'd lived here a couple of years, a friend of mine in Texas, who was also a Democrat, and, you know, didn't tell anybody She was a big time Bible teacher at that church, and she ended up moving to a different church. But anyway, she told me, Hey, there's going to be this biblical archaeology seminar in Minnesota. Over the summer, you want to go like, yeah, that'd be awesome. So we went, and this was 2017. And, you know, it's led by Bible dudes, you know, but they, they're, you know, professors. And so they have a little bit of different mindset. And so in this teaching, that whole week, I heard things about different Bible stories, that were also in other cultures and way prior to the Bible and all this stuff. And I was like, what? You mean, the Bible is not inerrant and perfect and original and written by God and all this stuff? It just, I mean, it just blew my mind.

David Ames 45:57
I couldn't imagine. Yeah, I think the the bubble, like the the limitation that has been within churches, leads to people deconstructing, because then when they just they encounter even the barest of facts.

Kris 46:12
It's like, there's, there's something out there. That's not what we're being taught. And maybe I knew it prior to being a Christian, but it didn't matter, then, you know, and it was really mind blowing, and it planted a seed in my brain. And my friends said, okay, so no one that said, Change your faith. I'm like, no, no, I'm still hardcore Christian, you know, blah, blah, blah. And, but we got back, or I got back home and, and I was fine. I was going to my home group going to church for about three months or four months. And then one day, suddenly, I just couldn't do it anymore. I told my husband, and this is how I felt at the time that I realized that my image of God was basically my senior pastor from the church I was at. And if I tried to imagine God, or anything, I would hear this guy's voice. I couldn't read the Bible without hearing his sermons. You know, and so I didn't have my own concept of Christianity anymore. It was everything I'd been taught at that church. And, and that really bothered me. And so I told my husband, I don't want to go to church anymore. I don't want to go to our home group anymore. I need to like back off and figure out who God is in my own self because I'm, I'm losing, you know, touch with what I was doing. And he was kind of glad about the church thing. He never liked organized religion, but he was very patient. For many years, like decades,

David Ames 47:52
while you were working, yeah, you

Kris 47:54
know, but it's such a sweet man. And, you know, like, they would tell us, you know, be careful what you put on social media. And if you're, if your family posts anything, we're gonna let you know. And you're gonna have to tell them to take it down. And I mean, I'm lucky they never found stuff he posted, because he's always been very bold and outspoken. But anyway, I told him, You You be bold and outspoken. You say what you want, I don't care. But anyway, so this is that's that was in the winter of 2017 2018. Everything just started unraveling in my faith. And I realized I couldn't read the Bible anymore. I couldn't listen to any Jesus music anymore. Which is fine. I wasn't big on it. Because it all sounded like country to me and not like country. Like you know, but, but just everything just like, started, I would, I would get uncomfortable, I would feel anxious. I didn't understand what was happening. You know, I didn't ever think that this could be considered religious trauma. Because, you know, in my idea, trauma was, you know, like, some of the stuff that happened to me as a kid, it's blatant, it's, you know, super harmful and all that and, and I didn't know anybody who had like, wasn't going to church anymore, you know. So, I also had this layer of guilt of like, I'm not going to church. I'm not pleasing God. And then I had a person call me from Texas that I don't know how they found out, but they call me crying and like, I just heard that your son is gay and yell or go into hell, and I'm just so sad for you like, Oh my God. Yeah, so I had a couple of those kinds of conversations with people that I had to block out of my life. You know, things like that. Were just, it was a really tough time because all of my identity was wrapped up in being a Christian. You know, I didn't know anything else. And I also you know, the deep feelings of guilt around not pleasing God were just huge, but at the same time, there was just, I could not open that Bible, I could not do any of those things. You know, I had always listened to podcasts and this and that and couldn't do any of that. And, and the only person I knew to talk about it was my husband, because, you know, he was sweet, very understanding, always been very supportive, no matter what I'm thinking, and, but there was no one I could talk to about it. And suddenly, I realized, I can't talk to my Christian friends, I can't talk to my non Christian friends that I have here, because they don't have any frame of reference. There's just nobody there. And so it was a really lonely couple of years, where I was starting to deconstruct and didn't know, that's what I was doing. I started going to counseling for some of my childhood traumas. And, you know, that's, I think, when I realized, Okay, I am experiencing the effects of religious trauma as well, this has to be something else I work on, because, you know, but I didn't really know how. But you know, during counseling it, it was helpful, it, you know, at least brought things to light that where I was being given unhealthy, outside stressors, indoctrination, things like that. And even though my counselor was not, she didn't know much about religious trauma, and it wasn't her expertise, she was still helpful in that. And so I just started trying to, well, basically, I was like, Okay, well, if I'm not going to go to church, I need to explore other areas of spirituality, you know, so I started, like, looking into other things. I'm like, Okay, what about Buddhism, and, you know, the, all kinds of stuff that, you know, could replace that empty God hole, you know, whatever, you know, getting into crystals, getting into energy medicine, getting into, you know, just just reading different things, you know, comparing religions, I started watching, you know, documentaries, on cults and starting to understand, you know, the, all the things they have in common and seeing where, you know, things that have been done to me. Maybe not intentionally, or whatever, but they were still really hurtful. And similar to cults, you know? Yeah.

David Ames 52:35
You may not know, but my wife is still a believer. So every once in a while, I find myself back back in a church. And even, you know, the sweetest nicest people, you know, and I like, I like the people at her church. I can't unhear the manipulation. Yeah. Right. It just screams in my ear. And so even though I know, they have the best of intentions, and you know, they have no, no sense of the manipulation that's happening, like is just like screaming. Yeah. And, you know, you can't, you can't unlearn that or unhear it once you recognize

Kris 53:10
Yeah, exactly. And that. That's been interesting, you know, because I see it in different areas, because, you know, I'm still really close friends with the people that were in my home group in Texas, although all of them have left the church. You know, which I find interesting. And they all did it on their own, they didn't even know I was doing it. So like, interesting.

You know, I talked about the fear of pride, and the people pleasing and things like that. Those are some of the biggest things that came out of this for me was, you know, who am I without the church? Who am I without my Christian identity? And if I, and I'll be honest, I don't, I don't really know what I believe, you know, I think I might still believe in some sort of God. I don't know. I mean, I'm not atheist, I'm agnostic. But, you know, as I started to realize that, okay, I've decided I'm not following these rules, any more than what, what direction am I following? You know, what defines who I am? You know, and, of course, that's a big rabbit hole to go down. But, you know, I started realizing that I had suppressed so much of myself, or suppressed so much of myself that I don't really know who I am or what I believe, and I'm still trying to figure those things out. And I'm sure I'll do that the rest of my life. But, you know, I had always tried to suppress this strong woman leader tendency that I had, you know, because I wanted to be the perfect Christian wife, even though my husband was all about, you know, we're eek Well, and all that, I'll be like, well, but you're gonna get the final say on everything and I'm going to cook you dinner and I'm going to be subservient, blah, blah, blah, you know, and we laugh about it now. I try to be a control freak now and just be like, no. But I love it. You know, it's, it's so much easier than it used to be. But now it's like I've realized, you know, I can be proud of myself. Like I learned, I taught myself how to paint like landscapes when I was still a Christian, and it was 2013 when we were going through tough times with my kid. And it was something that brought me peace, and but, you know, people would say, Oh, that's really good. I'm like, Oh, well, you know, it's God, you know, bah, bah, you know, that kind of thing, you know, could never accept any compliments, you know, and now I'm like, Yeah, I'm pretty good painter. That's fun. I like it, you know, go Chris, you know, or whatever it is, you know, and being able to accept myself, you know, I never was able to accept me as me, I thought, you know, I had to be somebody else, just to make everybody happy. You know, and I'm learning that I can just make myself happy. And it's fine. You know, and learning what it takes to make myself happy. You know, that's been the last few years of being okay, with the way I look, the way I feel the things that think, you know, one of the really great things about not ascribing to the religion I was involved with was that when I first became a Christian, I threw away all of my hard rock CDs, because I thought that was probably pretty bad. But now I'm like, Hey, I forgot how much I like Ozzy?

David Ames 56:50
Yeah, just fun. You know, that is that's the best transition, which we should just make drop right there.

Kris 56:58
Makes me laugh, you know, the things that, you know, you think you you need to sacrifice for God or for whatever it is, and I don't feel like I'm, I don't know, I don't even know how to express this, like, I'm the same person. You know, I've just, you know, stopped listening to rock for a long time, but it doesn't matter. I can listen to what I want. You know, it shouldn't be so mind blowing. But it is a profound moment.

David Ames 57:31
Yeah, I totally get it. And, you know, I think what you said earlier was really important as well, that, you know, you can't talk about it with your Christian friends, and you really can't talk about it with your secular friends, either, because they're not going to get it. I think that's why the deconstruction community is so important. It is we get it,

Kris 57:50
it is, and that is part that has really been a huge help for me, you know, just reading other people's posts. And, you know, I think I went to an online support group, but just, you know, being around people who are have experienced the same thing in their own way, you know, regardless of what type of religion it was, or whatever, but just knowing that we've we've all got some really common themes. And I mean, it's just like any of the support groups I used to teach, you know, people would be like, Oh, thank you so much. This is greatest thing. I'm like, you know, really, it's that you came together with other people that were like you and realize that you're not alone. You know, and you don't have to do this alone. And I think, for me, that's been, you know, very important. You know, and I see that in other people's posts, too, that, you know, we're, we're in this together, even though we're miles and miles apart, we can still support each other. And I appreciate that about, you know, this podcast and about the Facebook page that there's a lot of support, you know, you get involved in some groups are pages, and there's a lot of, you know, some negative comments, and I just haven't seen any of that everybody is like, oh, no, you can do this, or I feel for you, or whatever it is, you know, and being a part of that kind of community is really powerful and valuable.

David Ames 59:11
Well, I have to give credit to our Lean Community Manager for that. She's She's amazing. And I do think that the community is amazing itself. So I'm glad you're a part of it.

As we wrap up, Chris, we've hinted at a few things, but do you have any recommendations for things that were helpful for you along the way, either books or podcasts or groups, anything like that?

Kris 59:39
I think, not really. I do think that it's, if a person's really having a hard time, I think it would be wise to have you know, therapy or a support group. I'm a huge proponent of those and being able to work through it with someone and, but it's like anything, you know, come hanging out is hard, no matter what you're coming out with. And so having, you know, finding, if it's if it's this podcast or the Facebook page or another one that's similar, I think that's really important. It's just not something that's easily done alone. You know, for me, I, I want to grow as a person throughout my life, you know, I want to work on things that I struggle with and be a better person than I was yesterday. And so I don't if I, if I just sit there and try to deconstruct by myself, I'm just gonna get stuck, and I'm going to be stagnant. And so, you know. So I really highly encourage people just to, you know, find that community. There's a lot of good books out there that I've heard of, but I haven't read them yet.

David Ames 1:00:51
Okay. Well, I appreciate that. Definitely a plus one to being a coming on part of a community whether that's our deconversion anonymous or any others, I think, I think that's it. That is the power of humans coming together to care for each other. I think that's what will get us through all this. Absolutely. Chris, thank you so much for being on the podcast.

Kris 1:01:11
Thank you. I really appreciate you giving me this opportunity.

David Ames 1:01:19
Final thoughts on the episode. I wish we could say that Chris's story was unusual or rare. And yet, there's just a common theme of strong leadership. Women who want to be a part of ministry wants to be a part of helping people and being limited and held down and told what they can and cannot do. This always strikes me as a tactically Bad mistake on the church's part, in that they are suppressing 50% of their population from actually participating. I really appreciated Chris's compassion and desire to help people that was real and came across in her interview so so strongly, it's just clear that she cares for people. And that is secular grace. I'm very glad to hear the freedom that Chris experiences on this side of deconstruction being out from underneath the limitations and the restrictions within Christianity, where she can love people unconditionally without reservation. I want to thank Chris for being on the podcast for telling her story with vulnerability and compassion. Thank you so much, Chris, for telling your story. Secular Grace Thought of the Week inspired by Chris is care for people. It never ceases to amaze me that the most compassionate, loving, caring people within the church are limited in how they can care for people or meet real human needs because of who they are allowed to care for and who they are not allowed to care for this side of deconstruction, deconversion those shackles are off. And you can just love people, even people who are radically different than yourself. That is secular grace. Next week, Arleen interviews Megan, you're not gonna want to miss that episode. Until then, my name is David. And I am trying to be the graceful atheist join me and be graceful human. The beat is called waves by MCI beads. If you want to get in touch with me to be a guest on the show. Email me at graceful atheist@gmail.com for blog posts, quotes, recommendations and full episode transcripts head over to graceful atheists.com. This graceful atheist podcast, a part of the atheists United studios Podcast Network

Transcribed by https://otter.ai