Natalie from New Zealand tells Arlene here story. She grew up Pentecostal participating in church. In her young adulthood she converted to Mormonism.

She saw that as woman her role was limited and was finding it difficult to accept the church’s perspective on LGBQT issues.

Eventually Natalie deconverted. She is thankful for her kids’ sake who later came out as queer. Natalie now finds time in nature and the forest life giving.

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Attribution

“Waves” track written and produced by Makaih Beats

David Ames  0:11  
This is the graceful atheist podcast United studios Podcast Network. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome to the graceful atheist podcast. My name is David, and I'm trying to be a graceful atheist. Please consider rating and reviewing the podcast on the Apple podcast store, right the podcast on Spotify, and subscribe wherever you are listening. We have a merchandise store on T public, you can get all of your graceful atheist and secular Grace themed items there. The link will be in the show notes. If you're in the middle of doubt, deconstruction, the dark night of the soul, you do not have to do it alone. Join our private Facebook group deconversion anonymous and become a part of the community. You can find us at facebook.com/groups/deconversion Special thanks to Mike T for editing today's show. On today's show, Arline interviews our guests this week, Natalie Natalie is from New Zealand. Natalie's family was Catholic but converted to a evangelical Pentecostalism at her birth in a harrowing story that she will tell Natalie grew up then in in the Pentecostal environments and Natalie was always fascinated with various other religions and she eventually converted to Mormonism. She is now an atheist after deconstructing her faith. Here is our lien to interview.

Unknown Speaker  1:49  
Natalie, welcome to the graceful atheist podcast. Hi, thank you for having me.

Arline  1:53  
Yeah, you and I have just recently connected through email and this. This works out perfectly. I'm excited to hear your story. We usually begin just tell us about your religious upbringing.

Natalie  2:04  
So I grew up in a home where my dad wasn't really religious. He grew up Catholic. My mom did as well. But she became a born again Christian when a couple of years before I was born. But she was really really devout. Me My, my younger years was spent in Baptist churches. And then my teenage years were in Pentecostal churches, evangelical. Yeah, those happy clappy type of churches. Yeah, and then as an adult, my husband and I were Mormons for a short little bit. And now I'm gonna Yes, yeah. So

Arline  2:48  
fun journey. Okay, so yeah, you grew up, you said Baptist and Pentecostal, those were your formative years. Good experiences bad. Yes, a little bit of everything.

Natalie  3:00  
A little bit of, of, of it all. So a little bit of backstory is I was born quite premature. So my mum loves to tell the story of how I medically died when I was a few days old and then rushed. Catholic priests didn't to come and baptize me. But at the time, the pope at the time was in town. And the priests wanted to go and see the pope more than he wanted to baptize a little baby. So he only did like a little blessing sprinkle type thing and went on his way. So my mum always used to talk a lot about how I was her only child that was born once she was a Christian, and I was lucky because I wasn't baptized properly into the Catholic church like my siblings were. So that kind of set the tone for my childhood. A lot like my mom took me to a lot of healing meetings. Because I was born so early. I have chronic lung disease like my lungs never developed as they should have. So yeah, I was in hospital really regularly as a kid and yeah, my mum would just take me to these healing meetings and claim that God healed me and I was the little kid that would go to Show and Tell at school and everyone else would bring a book or a toy or something. They've gone on holiday and I would bring nothing except I went to a healing meeting last night you need to believe in God so that he can save you and you can be healed if you need. That was at a really young age like eight I want to say yeah, so yeah, very not sure how to win it like my mum was was very, very A devout, like, everything was about God. Everything at home. When when Mum was around, it was very, we had to be careful what music we listened to what movies we watched, like my kids now think it's funny because I wasn't allowed to watch Mary Poppins because it had magic in it. But yeah, mum would go out and just be at home with dad and we'd watch Die Hard. And that was okay. But Mary Poppins wasn't it. So?

Arline  5:30  
Yeah, that's fascinating. Yeah, I knew Christian family. I did not grow up Christian. So I missed a lot of that. Yeah, so yeah, I know, right. But as an adult, we knew Christian families in the church who could watch like, gory horror movies at Halloween, because like, Halloween wasn't weird for us. But then they wouldn't watch anything with sexual stuff. And we were like, I mean, like, is any of it super helpful, but yeah, that's Wow, that's fascinating. So diehard at Christmas or just whenever because, you know, that's a big thing. Whenever that hurts Christmas, whenever, okay, just carried that wanted

Natalie  6:05  
to watch it. It was over. I love it.

Arline  6:17  
So then high school, you said as an adult, you guys were Mormon. Because we were taught, you know, Mormons are like a cult. So how do you

Natalie  6:24  
guys jump to that? So as a teenager, I Yeah. So like, grew up in Baptist churches like as a child. My dad left my mom and we moved to city. And that's when we got heavily involved in Pentecostal churches. So I was a youth group leader. I was a Sunday school, like a children's church leader at, I think I was 11. That really is just a child myself. I'm not sure why they made me a leader. But that's alright. So I was super like, five, six days a week at church doing stuff. At 16, I felt like God was telling me to go on a missions trip. Except I had left school, because I wanted to devote more of my time to the church. So other sports 16 was volunteering, like not being paid at all. Never. Yeah, no. I mean, why would they write? And, yeah, my mum had gone to this conference. And I went along, but purely because the conference was at the beach, and I wanted to go to the beach. Thought that was more fun than going home at 16. And but there were these woman there who had come from Namibia, which is it's just up from South Africa a little bit. And they ran a couple of homes like for, there was a woman's home and a children's home. And I loved working with kids. So I was like, Okay, well, I'll come and work in the children's home. And then reality set in of I don't have the money to fly from New Zealand, to Namibia. But then, these women that ran these homes, they went and spoke to my mom, and they will I think God is leading you to go as well. You should sell your home. And you should pay for you and Natalie to come over. And so my mom did, which horrifies me as an adult now. But at 16, I was like, oh, cool, I don't have to pay for it.

Arline  8:35  
Or their siblings is you said your dad had left. So like, what are the dynamics of just you and your mom dipping out and heading to a different continent?

Natalie  8:43  
Yes. So I'm, so I have an older sister. She's five years older than me. So at that point, she had a family of her own. My brother is three years older than me. He was still living at home, but my mum was like you can go find somewhere else to live. Gave him a little bit of money from selling her house to like set himself up. And we just went literally within within about three months mum had sold her house. We've gotten all the vaccinations we needed to get and off we went and I need to preface that with my mum had undiagnosed bipolar. So I really truly looking back now think she was an A, as kids, we call it like a bipolar high. And as soon as we got to Namibia, she went into a low. And I didn't see her for a couple of weeks. Really. Yeah, so we did that. And that was interesting to say the least. It was a very traumatic religious experience like within 24 hours of us being there. These women were telling In the people in the homes that we were prophets, and that everything we said was directly from God. And like I just said, like my mum went into a bipolar low. So she was literally in her room. It must have been for about the first three weeks, we were there, and I was 16 sitting there going, I don't know what to do. Like, these people are making me feel special. They're treating me really well. All of that type of stuff, like it was really, really messed up and probably meets all the criteria for a cult. But I didn't have that knowledge at the time. So yeah, there was that experience. And Mum actually left the home because the people were the people who ran it, were trying to get me to stay in Namibia, by myself, like that even taken me into the immigration office. And thankfully, the immigration officer was like, um, you're only 16 Were your parents. So that didn't go ahead, thankfully. And that was a bit of a wake up call for me of like, because at that point, mom had left the home and was living with some friends that she'd made over there. So I was by myself and the situation trying to navigate it. And they used they would always tell me that God was telling them things that I should be doing. And I had, I've been taught a lot, you know, you don't question if people say that God's time or something, who are you to question that that's between them and God and, and maybe that's God giving you a bit of a nudge, a bit of direction, that type of stuff. So it was it was really, really messy. And I ended up literally escaping, like secretly packing my bag and the friends that mum had made, came and picked me up, and I'd chucked my my massive backpack into the back of this tiny car. And there was a guy there, his name was Seth, he, he was the son of the woman who ran the homes. And he was, I think he he thought he was like Jesus, like he grew his hair out. So it was really long grew the beard wore a white robe all the time. And sandals, and he was a really strange man. I laugh now at the time, it wasn't funny. But I remember him literally chasing the car telling, like yelling that we're going to hell for leaving. And we ended up back in New Zealand after that, but I didn't have anyone I could talk to about it. Because I'd gone on this missions trip. And felt so special. And like I was doing this amazing thing for God. And then it all went to I don't know if I can curse on this. You can curse Yeah, winter shamrock went to shit. And I was still involved in church and stuff when we came back to New Zealand, but it just never felt the same. Like there was a lot of a lot of questions on my end of what the heck is going on.

I came back and we moved to city at that point, both mom and I and I got involved in another Pentecostal church like like, within weeks, I was a youth leader. I was preaching. Like, there was no pause to deal with what had happened. And I, I still didn't go back to school. I still wanted to just devote my time to the church because I think that's where I found because my home life was quite unsettled. That's true. It was where I found validation. It was where I found family community. All of that. So I never wanted to say no to anything. I wanted to. Yeah, I just wanted to be there all the time. I wanted them to see, hey, I'm doing this and maybe eventually they they can pay me to do cash. I'm sure it would have been about 60 hours a week worth of work like Oh, yeah. Yeah. And keeping in mind, I was only 17 at that point. Still a baby. Like I have teenagers myself who are close to that age. And I'm just like, I'm horrified at the thought of them being in that position. But yeah, I met my husband at 17. So he was we were both youth leaders. And he was on worship team. He was the drummer so that was cool. Yeah, we got married 10 months later. Very, very quick because we were in the thick of purity culture, and it was you get married because God forbid you live together or have sex or anything like that before marriage. Yeah. And then we, we made the decision to take a year off leadership. And we spoke to our pastor about it. And we were like, look, we need to do this for our relationship. I mean, we'd only been together for 10 months, we needed to get to know each other like. But I was told that I was leading my husband astray. Because I was the one who had suggested it. Oh, wow. Oh, so to backtrack a little bit as well, at the time, I had a full time job. Because my mum had kicked me out of home. And that's a whole other story. But um, yeah, I had a full time job. But I was working 60 hours a week. And I'd gone to our senior pastor and to our youth pastor, because I was I was a youth leader, I was on the welcome team, I was on clean up, set up all of this stuff, like it was really intense. And I said, I can't work, my 50 hour job that I'm being paid for and do the amount of stuff that I'm doing. At church, like I just, I'm not stepping back entirely, but I need to just dial it down a little bit. And that just resulted in people not talking to me. And you know, they would talk to my I mean, he was my fiancee at the time, but they would, they would talk to Steve and they would happily welcome him to gatherings and stuff, like I lost friends. And that really started like, I didn't have the language for it at the time. But I'd have really bad panic attacks at church, where I'd have to go sit in my car just to try and breathe through it. And I would try getting pray for it. Because mental health wasn't a real thing. It was just you pray, and God will make it better and read your Bible a bit more, and you'll be awkward. And that just wasn't the case. So we got married, and we ended up leaving that church and we tried to do it. And as healthy away as we could we tried to make the senior pastor and just say, Look, we're going to find another space for us. Thank you for X, Y, and Zed. And then they started rumors that we were going and starting our own church. And it just it was a shit show. And we tried other churches, but I would have panic attacks, even just hearing the worship music. Because I'm not sure what Pentecostal evangelical churches listen to in America, but here it was heavily Hillsong based at the time, and yes, saying yes. Okay. I would hear it at because you know how, at church, right? Like, it's, you go in and straight away. So worship service, and you will sing songs. And then you have the preaching, they have

Arline  18:29  
to prime you. Yeah, they have to prime you to be able to hear the foolishness, they're about to spit out.

Natalie  18:37  
But straightaway, like within five minutes of being there, I would have a panic attack. And I'm so thankful that my husband was understanding and that we communicated as much as we could at the time, given. I think I was maybe 19 By that point. So he was what like 21, like we were babies trying to navigate all of this.

And then, we had children, young, like I was 21 when I had my eldest and then 22. And we tried going to church with them. But honestly, trying to go to church with two babies is just, I spent my whole time in the crash part. And I was like, this is doing nothing for me. I could just be doing this at home. So there were a couple of years where we we would try that then I'd have a panic attack and then be dealing with the kids and I'm like, I just want to go home. But once our kids went to kindergarten, they started making friends and their friends, parents were mostly Mormons. So that's how we got into that. So that was a very long explanation to get to

Arline  19:57  
know thank you because that's a lot to have. I feel like being young parents being just married when you're still a teenager trying to navigate that, realizing that the church environment you're in when you say, Hey, this is overwhelming and too much, they're like, Oh, well, like just so that's, that's those are big parts of your story. So, Mormonism, so how to desk. I'm like, it's it's funny even now, you know, I'm an atheist I don't believe in any of this stuff. But Mormonism is like this far fetched crazy thing way over there that I don't know anything about, even though the more I do learn about these more, I guess on the fringes, versions of Christianity, they all sound very similar and have lots of the same things. So anyway, tell, tell me, yeah. Tell me about Mormonism. How'd that

Natalie  20:48  
go? Yeah. So I, because my friends were Mormons, I would occasionally take the kids to events that they would have. And I missed that feeling of community. I missed that feeling of belonging. And I was, I can look back now and go, it was love bombing, really. And that's what they're taught to do. You're taught to bring people into the church. It's not, I thought they just wanted to, they just liked our company and wanted us to join it. And I don't I mean, I'm sure it was a mixture of both, but I definitely do think there was very much wanting to get brownie points for getting us into the church, essentially. But I, my friend gave me a Book of Mormon, and I started reading it. And I'm an avid reader, like, I love books. And I only got maybe 10 pages. And because this is so poorly written, I don't know if you've ever tried reading

Arline  21:48  
any of it. I have not we've had a copy because we've been gifted one before, but we never I never.

Natalie  21:56  
I mean, if you want to contrive, but it's not an easy read. Because it Yeah, for many reasons. But I met with some missionaries, which felt really weird, because at the time, I think I was 25. And these missionaries were 18 year old boys. And I was like you're making me really uncomfortable. I didn't understand the in that a big part of the Mormon church is modesty. And I didn't feel like I was a modest, right. I had been taught to cover my body, you know, you shouldn't be tempting anyone that type of stuff. But I was like, we're in my own home at some time. I was wearing a singlet. I didn't think anything of it. And they would just be steering inappropriately. And where we had to get some of the bishop involved where I was like, I don't want to meet with these ones. Can you send some other ones over? Which is tricky, because it's all very it's not like Pentecostal churches where anyone can go to that physical church. And Mormonism, you have wards. So if you live in a geographical area, that's the building you have to go to. And it's the same missionaries they sit to. Yeah, so it was a little bit tricky, and I feel kind of bad because they were kids themselves, but it was just open. But um, my husband is very much a free thinker and likes to question people that he not in a rude way, but that he likes to push people as well. Why do you believe that? Even though we were Christians, he would still do that. Like he? I think he found it kind of funny. But um, we met with the bishop, because so the bishop is like the pastor of the church. Yeah, yes. I'm trying to figure it. Yeah. And he was like, Natalie, I don't think you should get baptized because Steve's not on board. And I was like, I can do what I want. Like, I'm, we're not like, we don't have to do this together. And he's like, no, no, that's not okay. And now I understand the church is so patriarchal. And if you're a woman, you do what your husband says, and that really threw me so. And I try not to live through regrets, but I do regret the fact that I, I spent weeks hounding Steve, I was like, just reading, doesn't just watch this documentary watch, read this book. And he was amazing. And he read it and he was like, Look, this is obviously something he wants to do. I don't want you going to church without me. So I'll just join two. And he did it. And he was honest with the missionaries. He was honest with the bishop and he was like, Look, what did he say? He said, If I grew up believing that Jonah could be swallowed by a whale and survive And that, you know, if I can believe that then I can believe this. And I really think for him, that was the start of him going, this is a load of shit. I don't believe. I mean, he even got out and they asked him to speak at a they call it a steak meeting. So it's a bunch of not like sta K, not the meat. Okay, a steak meeting. So it's a bunch of awards get together. And it's like a big deal to be asked to speak at one of those. And they asked Steve and he got up and said this, he was like, Well, if I can believe this, why wouldn't I believe this? And there was no, God has told me since he was, and but they loved it. Oh, like, yeah, that's okay. And I was like, what? Like, they were talking about him being on track to be a bishop one day. And we'd only been members for like six months.

We went through the temple. We went through the endowment ceremony, we got sealed as a family. So my kids were at the time, I think, five and six. So they still talk about our sealing ceremony. Do you know what that is? Is it like, what happens if you didn't get married in that church? So that you have it like now? Yeah, so whatever thing Okay, yeah. So if we had actually gotten married in that church, we would have been sealed, then. And then our children would just be automatically sealed. But because because we were converts, we had to get sealed. And then our children had to come in and get sealed to us. And that meant that we could be together forever in the celestial kingdom. Because you know, how there's like three degrees of heaven. No, no, go for it. Tell us all the things. It's complicated. I feel like I'm not going to get it completely right. Because a lot of it turned out and I was like, Yeah, whatever. But it's so you've got the celestial, and I get these two mixed up. Go celestial, celestial, terrestrial. So the celestial kingdom is the one where you're closest to God. Okay, as a Mormon man, you have your own planet. And family. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So actually, a lot of that family. Even when I wasn't Mormon, I learned by watching the Book of Mormon musical.

Arline  27:39  
The musical. Yes.

Natalie  27:42  
Which is? It's funny, but for it's for people.

Arline  27:47  
Yes. For people who don't know, it's created by the guys who did South Park. So just think how wonderful and I have not seen it. We've listened to the soundtrack 1000 times, but we've not we have not seen it yet. But anyway, continue on. Yeah.

Natalie  28:02  
So yeah, we will sail together in the celestial kingdom. So the next kingdom down is for people who believe in God, but aren't Mormons or aren't sealed or haven't gone through the temple? So there's that realm. And then the third one is for people who are a good people, but don't believe in God. They're kind of at the bottom. And then hell is for apostate. So for people who leave the church, so who, who had that understanding? So how isn't really a place for like, we would like like I was taught and Christianity where if you don't accept God, then you're going to hell. They, you can not believe in God, and you still go to some form of heaven, but you won't be as close to God. But how was reserved for apostates and

Arline  29:00  
people who were Mormon? Yeah, then left. Wow, that's so specific.

Natalie  29:09  
It's very detailed. And I love having information. I love the intricacies of religion. But it was it was a lot. Like I remember and we had some lessons before we've gone through the temple. And I asked our friend, I was like, because a big thing in the temple is you do baptisms for the dead? So yes, I didn't know about that. Yeah, yes. So he was talking about how you can have a loved one who who isn't a member of the church, but when they die, you could do a baptism for the dead for them and in in the afterlife. They can make that choice whether or not to believe and then they can go to the celestial kingdom. But I had some family that had I thought were complete assholes. And I was like, I don't want them having that opportunity. I don't want to spend eternity with them. They are their people. And he was like, Oh, well, you know. And he actually said, if you're a duck in this life, you probably going to be a different than next life. So don't worry about it. But I was always like, there's always that possibility. Like, it just didn't make a lot of sense. But they had an answer for most things. But yeah, we we went through the temple that was a whole experience in itself was very, very elaborate. Yeah, like, being told, I had a name that was given to me that I would have to give my husband so that he could pull me into heaven. And I remember saying, I can get myself into heaven. What are you talking about? Like, that was a very foreign concept to me. And it was quite amusing. Because after our endowment, and after giving my husband my secret temple name, we've got him because he's not supposed to tell me his. I'm not supposed to know his, but that's just not how we operate. So I asked him when we got home, I was like, so what's your what's your tempo now? And he was like, I actually forgot. And he was like, I was too embarrassed to stick my hand up and ask for it again. So you don't know your name that's supposed to?

Arline  31:31  
Yeah, yes. Like, well, now we understand why he is where he is. Because he forgot that name that his magical ceremony. All right. Yeah. Okay. Okay, so, so this last, how long did this last? And how did you? How did you guys get out of it? So

Natalie  31:47  
we were only in the church for 18 months. So Oh, wow, you have to be a member, like a baptized member for 12 months before you can go through the temple. So we had done it very, okay, bang on that 12 months. Partly because, you know, it's like the secret club that I wanted to see what happens, I wanted to be a part of it. And then I was a part of it. And I was like, What the hell is this. But for us, it came down to, we were having to unteach at home, what our kids were learning at church, specifically around gender around being queer. Because that's a big, there are very, very defined lines for that in the church. And I'm so glad that we left and that we taught our kids love who you want, be who you are, because our eldest is non binary, and our youngest is gender fluid. And they both queer, and the damage that could have been done if we had stayed. Like, I'm just I'm so relieved that we got out when we did, because for them, there wasn't a lasting. I mean, they walk around telling us proudly that their little heathens kids have a good sense of humor, but the religious stuff that they were exposed to, hasn't affected them, which I'm so grateful for.

We then whittled our beliefs down to so we left that church. And then we said, right, examining a lot of the Bible, I don't agree with that anymore. But I still believe in God, I still felt it was important to believe in a higher being. So we want to hold our beliefs down to love the Lord your God fully mind heart and soul and love others as you love yourself, and that's how we tried to operate for a few years. And then we were out for a drive one evening and my husband said to me, he was I don't believe in God. And I panicked and expected there to be like lightning hitting our power going, you're gonna make God angry. Like let's not do this and I mean, come on. Believing in a being that's going to be angry at you for having free will and saying, Look, I don't believe this is probably not a being I want to believe in. So for me, it definitely made me think and it made me go well, I don't believe 99.9% of what's in the Bible anymore. I definitely disagree with organized religion, or just religion in general. It's not not my cup of tea. It's been nothing but damage to me, personally, and yeah, they were It was about a year of conversations back and forth. So Steve listening to your podcast listening to the Thinking Atheist, and him sending me episodes going, Hey, I think you might want to listen to this. And I was like, No, I really don't want to. That's, that's pushing it. But I did start to and I was like, Oh, this actually makes sense. This is not just me that has these doubts and these concerns, and I was able to start verbalizing what I had been thinking internally for quite a long time. Like, probably since I was about 16. And Africa. When all of that happens, I was able to talk about it and talk about the harm that religion had caused for me. And I understand it's not that way for everybody. But yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then I think it I can't even remember when it was, but just one day, I was like, Look, so it started off. I think I'm agnostic. I think there could be a possibility that God exists. And if someone could really prove to me, then sure. But now I'm just like, that's not a being I want to believe in or would ever even if someone could come to me and say, Hey, this does exist, I'd still be like, No, I'm good. Thank you. So yeah, now very proudly, an atheist and you rebel. Yeah. Yeah. So how long ago was that? Oh. About four years ago? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Just before, just before the pandemic. Yeah, so I ran four years ago. Yeah.

Arline  36:49  
So what does life look like now?

Natalie  36:52  
So it's, it's complicated. It's, I mean, we lost friends. When we left Pentecostal churches, we lost friends. When we became Mormons, we lost friends when we left the Mormon church, and we've lost friends since being atheist. It's quite a lonely journey. There's not many people that get it.

So that's been hard. I mean, for me, one of the biggest things was in

2020. In New Zealand, we'd gone into lockdown for I think it was about three months. And at the end of it, my father in law passed away. And it was the first time I had to deal with death. Why while being an atheist, and hearing people say, Well, we'll see him again. He's in a better place, like I've really had to sit with that uncomfortable feeling. And go, Well, I don't believe I'm going to see him again. I don't believe there is anything after this life, personally. And that was really hard to work through and to help my husband through and to help our kids through because, for me growing up, I had people that died, but it was, well, they had a relationship with God. So we'll see them again. They're in a better place there with God. I didn't have that reassurance for my kids. So we, we did things like that was just joking one night because my kids called their grandfather, grandpa. But their cousins call him pop pop. And he had originally wanted to be called that with our kids. This is an important part of the story. But I had told him I said, if you use that name, I'm gonna make fun of you because it sounds like you're passing wind. But so when he died, the cousins were talking about pop pop and stuff. And I just joked, well, you know, you can look at the stars. And if there's one that's kind of shooting by it's it's Pop Pop being powered by his guest. So our kids then develop, and it was a joke, but it was almost like a comfort to them that we can look up the stars and we can just imagine that that's Grandpa, you know, but not in essence, that we actually think he's up there. I mean, one night, we had something shot through the sky and it wasn't a plane. Turned out it was like a satellite thing, which we don't get in New Zealand. So everybody was like, What the heck is that? And my first thought was because I'd been outside putting the rubbish out and my 14 year old was was with me, and they were like, grandpa. It's like grandpa. We were joking when we told you that. But that was is a way for us to deal with that uncertainty and to provide a little bit of comfort for them. And I mean, yeah, it's that that really cemented for me though. I don't believe in God, and I'm okay with that.

For now, I've even had conversations with my mum, who is still very much a Christian, where I've told her, I don't believe in God, I don't believe in prayer. And she's been horrified and being like, well, how can you live your life without that, and I'm like, I can live my life quite happily, I feel more peace. Now, without that constant thinking of. If I swear, I'm gonna go to hell, or God's going to be angry with me, and I'm gonna have to repent. Or nevermind those, the bigger things that they tell you about that, you know, are going to affect your life. Like I can just, I can be myself, I can think for myself like I've really had to. But because my husband and I got married so young, and because we were in such a patriarchal religion, there were things even like, I was taught to vote for who my husband was voting for. Yeah. So at the moment in New Zealand, it's election time. And having discussions with my kids about the deadline might not be voting for the same people. And that's okay. But for me, that's still a bit of a novelty. And that there wasn't anything that my husband and forced that was just what I was taught through different mediums, whether from the pulpit or from books or that type of stuff. I, I've really had to develop an opinion. And which I find really hard because my people, please, and I don't want to upset anyone, but my opinions don't have to align with my husband's. I mean, obviously, they're to be in a healthy relationship. For us, there are just foundational things that we need to agree on. But there are other things where I'm like, I even like picking bedding 15 years ago, I would have just been like, Oh, will you choose because you need to be comfortable, because this is your space as well, which is somewhat understand. But it meant I ended up hating all the furniture, we had all the all the bedding, all that type of stuff. And now I'm like, give me all the stuff that I like. And I've found a joy in decorating. How I like and obviously there are compromises because it's more than just me living in our home. But my opinion matters, too. Yeah, absolutely. And I really don't mean that in. Like that was never anything my husband said to me that he actually didn't grow up knowing that. And I think that is the differences between being an assigned female at birth in this particular religion and being an assigned male at birth. It's just very different. Very different experiences. And we've had to work through that a lot. Yeah, but yeah, I definitely feel a lot more. A lot more peace now a lot more. I'm comfortable within myself. And obviously that still work in progress. But yeah, like I find a lot of comfort and peace and being out in nature. We go hiking a lot. And like we're really lucky here in New Zealand, we we have bush tracks, like five minutes away from our house type of thing. But for all of us, I don't know if you've heard of like forest bathing. And I don't mean that in the sense that we go into the forest and have a bath.

Arline  44:12  
No, no, no, no, like just being in like fully full immersion into the forest. Yeah. Just

Natalie  44:18  
just being able to, I guess disconnect from the busyness of life and just breathe, and just be and maybe it's because we're focusing so much on just trying to breathe climbing up a mountain or whatever it might be. But it's, it's really good for us. We all notice. As soon as we get into the forest, we're all much calmer. We're much happier. And so that's been really good and a good coping strategy for us to replace things like prayer or hopping on worship music or whatever it would have been at that time.

Arline  45:07  
So how do you find meaning? Like? What are the things that make your life meaningful now that you don't have religion?

Natalie  45:14  
That's a tricky question. How do I find meaning? Or G you?

Arline  45:20  
Like, for me, the things that used to that I used to struggle thinking they were idols, like my family, my personal time, novels, like the things I love. Those things don't necessarily give me meaning. But those are the things now that I can just love without feeling like they're vying for my worship. Because I used to get all worried that I was worshiping my family, worshiping my kids worshiping myself instead of like, just letting those things

Natalie  45:46  
be what they are. Yeah, yeah, so probably much the same. I guess, I I've had to learn how to relax and rest, because that was not okay. That was. I mean, when you're doing stuff five or six days a week for church and being made to feel bad, if you're not there, that's been a really hard thing for both my husband and I to learn to just sit our butts down and just enjoy relaxing, I'm still not very good at it. But I want to set that example for my kids. That's important for your mental, physical and emotional well being to sometimes just relax, you don't have to actively be doing stuff all the time. I find a lot of meaning. And I probably annoy our family and friends. By I talk a lot about social issues. Who so because our kids queer. And we've had to have a lot of difficult conversations with family and with friends, and it's weeded a lot of them out. That's I just I have no time or patience for people that don't accept my kids for who they are. But also being like, this isn't just our kids. It's Yes, you know, you need to be loving and accepting of everyone. Things like talking about race, because we are a mixed race family. Obviously, I'm a Paki house. So I'm New Zealand, European, but my husband is Malaysian. And our kids are Malaysian and Sorry, I keep I keep forgetting that not everyone knows to do with so go to us. And then I'm like. Yeah, so just talking about hate that that matters. And yes, we are a family where we talk a lot about politics. We talk a lot about different religions. I love reading about different religions and cults. And sometimes I think they must be really weird to other people. That I know. So I'm, I haven't been diagnosed yet, but I'm feeling I'm 99% Certain I'm autistic. So I get hyper focused on things. And I'm partly saying that because our youngest has been diagnosed with autism, and a lot of those traits that they had, I just thought were things that weren't for me. And now I'm going Oh, that makes sense. Where I had like a year or two, where I just devoured every book I could about Scientology which I understand to some people would be really, really weird. But I loved learning about it. I loved I learned a ton about the Amish community. About, like, when I was a Christian, it was learning about Mormonism. Which is weird considering I became a woman, but I wanted to know all about it. It's fascinated me I find a lot of enjoyment and learning. And I think part of that is because because I left school, to devote all my time to the church. I didn't leave because of a lack of intelligence I left because of that. What's the word? fervent devotion to church? Yeah, and I'm currently in the process of applying to go to university, which feels really scary. But I want to do that because I've been a stay at home mom for 15 years, and that's what our family has needed given. There are some higher needs there but I just I love learning like the amount of books we've got. I just said that ridiculous and we live in a tiny house. Um, yeah, I don't know. I think that's probably the place where I found a lot of meaning for me outside of religion is educating myself about social justice issues and learning about the world outside of Christianity. Because I wasn't allowed to for a long time that wasn't okay. It wasn't you should be off the world but not in the world, that type of stuff. Yeah,

Arline  50:28  
I am self diagnose inattentive, ADHD. And so I'm like, ooh, rambling and hyper fixation. Yes, I am. Here. Let's get it. Yeah, that's good. And for me, I'm not formally diagnosed, but it was watching my older son struggle with things I struggled with as a kid that I thought were just like, oh, this is just like a thing. And it was like, yeah, actually, this looks like inattentive ADHD. And then a friend of mine. She said, she leaned over my shoulder one day, and um, she's already HD. So she, she, she knows she was paying attention. And she said, you know, neurotypical people don't have 36 reminders on their phone for stuff they do every day. And I was like, they don't. And that was the first that was like, a year or so ago. And I was like, Oh, wow.

Natalie  51:16  
Yeah.

Arline  51:26  
So speaking of recommendations, books, podcasts, anything and I know, I'm sure you have plenty. So yeah. Do you have any recommendations, things that were helpful on your journey out? Or something you're just loving right now or something? Yeah, whatever you want to recommend.

Natalie  51:40  
So I did read a Dan Barker book. God, the most unpleasant character in all fiction, who didn't read that was interesting. It's very. I actually read it, my husband and I read it out loud to each other. And our kids were coming in and out of the room while we were reading it. And they will have just the Bible actually say that type of stuff. And I was like, yeah. But I found that quite validating, to ask not just me that just thinks these things about the Bible. Actually, a book written about it, like that was quite eye opening. I was going to say, Richard Dawkins, but I feel a little conflicted. about recommending, just given what he has said about trans people recently, I'm, yes, I'm just,

Arline  52:39  
it's like, when you're a Christian, and you realize a lot of the dead guys that you thought were super fantastic, like enslaved people, and like, harmed entire groups of people, and it was perfectly okay. And then here's this living guy who's like, here's some great information. And here's some other things that I believe in. It's like, I yeah, it gets it gets real complex, real quick. Yeah, it's

Natalie  53:03  
a little murky. Like, I I found the content of some of his books helpful. But I don't know. It just it hits something. In Me, I think because my children are identify as trans. I just I mean, just like with JK Rowling, right? Yeah. My kids loved Harry Potter. We were obsessed with it. And now there's nothing Harry Potter in our house.

We ran into the same thing. Yeah, you did. Yeah. Yeah. Well, with with Harry Potter, and then yeah, that's a whole other episode discussing like whiteness in the atheist world, and misogyny in the atheist world. And like, all these things that like, they don't magically disappear. When you leave religion. They're just tweaked. And the wording might be a little bit different. But it's a de homophobia, like all the things. So go ahead. Yeah. Yeah, it just it surprised me and shocked me. And his books were ones that even our kids had started to read. So yeah, but a couple of his books have been good. But probably for me more podcasts because I can put it on and do other stuff at the same time. Like I'm not good at.

I'm good at reading fiction, and just getting immersed and lost in those books. But often with nonfiction, I have to do it in little bits. So I find podcasts for me are just better for me to get that information in because I can do it while I work out or do the dishes or whatever it might be. So your podcast has been really good to hear other people's stories. Like for me having lost a lot of that community. It feels really lonely, but then thank God for technology that we have this and I can feel somewhat can added to other people because I don't know if it's different being in like living somewhere like America where it's just a bigger country, there's more people if it's easier to connect with people who've been through similar things or have similar beliefs, because it's not easy here. Yeah. So your podcast, Mormon Stories, I actually, I haven't listened to it in a little while. But there was a period of time where I avidly listen to that because he doesn't just interview ex Mormons, he interviews, people from all religions, and I found it really educational and really helpful. And especially being in a little bit of a unique position of having grown up Pentecostal evangelical to being a Mormon for a little bit less. There's not many people that have done that. Which is good. I'm glad they haven't. But yeah, it's just a unique experience. So being able to learn about both on the same platform has been really helpful. The Thinking Atheist, really like that podcast, the deconversion therapy podcast with Bonnie and I want to say, Karen, but I don't know that's her name, my memories. But I just I find them really funny. It's a little bit more of a light hearted take sometimes Oh, listen to quite a serious one where I have to think quite hard. And then I'll listen to that one. And I can just laugh. And that's also that one's also been quite good for my kids. Like, if they're around, I can put that one on. And they can see some of the humor and what their dad and I grew up with, because sometimes we have to explain why we're reacting a certain way to something because it's because of our religious upbringing. And our kids are going what? Like, they don't understand it, which is great. Yeah, but there sometimes is that disconnect of, we're not like, we sometimes have to pause a little bit to think about something and work through quickly work through, well, hold on, why am I reacting to this this way. And then we can move through it. But we've tried our best to communicate that with our kids, but sometimes just having these podcasts on when they're around, helps them to know as not just their dad and I that have these things that we have to work through or because to them, it's they they don't get why people are transphobic and homophobic and racist, and I have to go well, when you're indoctrinated your whole life,

Arline  58:03  
that it's only one way? Yeah.

Natalie  58:07  
Yeah, um, I've also found just different accounts, like on Instagram, especially. Just getting those little snippets have, you know, they, they'll share a post and I can just quickly read it and then sit with it for a little bit and think about it and go, Okay, that, that makes a lot of sense. But I didn't say before it as well, though. I've actually been diagnosed with complex PTSD, and PTSD, in large part because of religious trauma. So that's been a whole other thing to navigate as well. Yeah. Yeah. Can't remember that. Probably. Sorry.

Arline  58:53  
You did. You gave me books and podcasts? Yes. And Instagram accounts. Well, Natalie, thank you so much for being on the podcast. I really appreciate you telling your story.

Natalie  59:03  
Thank you so much for having me. Really, really.

Arline  59:12  
My final thoughts on the episode, y'all, the church will just not pay people. Volunteer work is wonderful. It's great to be involved in things. But it seems like I keep hearing on episodes like churches will just exploit their people. They will just keep using their congregation members and just completely burn them out and fill them with Bible verses about how God will renew them. And then keep burning them out. And it breaks my heart like Natalie was 11 and 12 and 16 and 17 like in leadership and would have stayed in leadership as a young married mom if they hadn't changed to a different church. Young Parents need like a whole two or three years off of having to do anything more than take care of their kids. Maybe go to work depends on that situation. But like, just trying to exist with little tiny people in your home and sleep. It breaks my heart. And it makes me angry. Thinking of how, how often this happens to people. Another thing that stood out to me is Natalie's willingness to see the things in the church that she knows is not going to work for how they're going to parent their kids. So they have little tiny kids there in the Mormon church. And there's these strict rules and roles and genders. And it's a binary, and there's no nuance. And she's like, I can't do this, I can't do this to my children, I'm not going to put them in boxes. And the freedom that her kids as teenagers now, and as they grow into adults have to just be themselves like that as a beautiful, good, wonderful gift for her kids. Even though, you know, we want our kids to understand other people's perspectives. Her kids not like having a hard time understanding why her parents are having a hard time with certain things from religion, it's probably good for them, because they haven't had to endure the trauma and the suffering. They can grow in empathy, and figure that kind of stuff out. But they didn't have to have personal experience or knowledge of some of those beliefs and practices. And that's a good thing. That's a next generation of kids growing up without religious trauma. So Natalie, thank you so much for being on the podcast. This was wonderful. I really enjoyed this conversation.

David Ames  1:01:49  
The secular Grace Thought of the Week is embrace your irreverence. I was listening to a comedy podcast recently. And they were talking about how successive generations have become more irreverent. But what came out of that was the ability to have a sense of humor about the religious contexts in which they grew up. Now that you have deconstructed, maybe D converted, you have more space from the religious context you grew up in, and you can see the comedy of it all. irreverence no longer has eternal consequences. So embrace your irreverence. Until next time, my name is David, and I am trying to be the graceful atheist. Join me and be graceful. The beat is called waves by MCI beats. If you want to get in touch with me to be a guest on the show, email me at graceful atheist@gmail.com for blog posts, quotes, recommendations and full episode transcripts head over to graceful atheists.com. This graceful atheist podcast the atheists United studios Podcast Network

Transcribed by https://otter.ai