This week’s guest is Mary Justice, the heart behind the delightful Instagram account, @maryfairyboberry.
Mary is an international adoptee who grew up in an emotionally and verbally abusive Seventh-Day Adventist home. Between home and church, there were rules that dictated her entire life.
“It’s just so much fanaticism.”
As an adult, she has a family she cares for without the abuse or micro-managing from high-control religion.
She’s been through a lot, but she’s choosing to laugh and enjoy her present life. Check out her Instagram account @maryfairyboberry for her own personal journey, cute kid videos, information on autism, and hilarious tweets about parenting.
Quotes
“When you grow up Seventh-Day Adventist…You’re surrounded by it. You almost don’t even know people who aren’t SDA.”
“The SDA has a lot of rules in place, especially for women…and you’re expected to just follow along.”
“…you’re going to be this good virginal girl that’s waiting on this invisible man…”
“Movies weren’t just like, ‘Oh, you don’t [watch them] because it’s bad,’ it was, ‘This is a place of ultimate debauchery.’”
“It’s just so much fanaticism.”
“Everyone looking in, ‘Oh, this is the perfect little Adventist family,’ and then you come home and your mom is evil, and she’s mean and hateful and makes your life hell.”
“If you’re excluding people? No. You’ve lost me.”
“I still have faith. I feel like there’s something bigger than me that cares for me and others and is probably absolutely horrified at the way we treat each other.”
“You can find your people. They are out there!”
“…there’s no such thing as a ‘little milestone’ to a parent of a medical child or a disabled child. Everything is massive.”
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Attribution
“Waves” track written and produced by Makaih Beats
Transcript
NOTE: This transcript is AI produced (otter.ai) and likely has many mistakes. It is provided as rough guide to the audio conversation.
David Ames 0:11 This is the graceful atheist podcast United studios podcast. Welcome, welcome. Welcome to the graceful atheist podcast. My name is David and I am trying to be the graceful atheist. Please consider rating and reviewing the podcast on the Apple podcast store, right the podcast on Spotify, and subscribe to the podcast wherever you are listening. If you're in the middle of doubt, deconstruction the dark night of the soul, you do not have to do it alone. Join our private Facebook group deconversion anonymous and become a part of that community. You can find us at facebook.com/groups/deconversion Remember, we have a merchandise store with graceful atheist and secular Grace themed items, you'll find the link in the show notes. Special thanks to Mike T for editing today's show. On today's show, our Lean interviews this week's guest Mary justice, Mary runs the Instagram account. Mary Berry faux fairy, that is all about motherhood, her experience having a child with autism and her own experience as an adoptee. Mary grew up in a very strict Seventh Day Adventist environment and was able to deconstruct here is our Lean interviewing Mary justice. Arline 1:40 Mary justice Welcome to the graceful atheist podcast. Mary Justice 1:44 Thank you for having me. Arline 1:45 I got back on Instagram a few years ago, and I started following scary mommy because I'm a parent and I need scary mommy in my life. And the algorithm was like You may also like Mary fairy by Barry and I was like, okay, so I started following you. And not only have I learned like so much about autism, things I just did not know before. And about just being a mom, girl, I have laughed and laughed and felt so seen. So there is all that. Mary Justice 2:17 Well, that makes me happy. Arline 2:19 Oh yes. It's like your your page is so much fun. And then a few months ago, you just posted I can't remember the picture or the reel or anything. I just remember the caption, which is something about just pulling apart the religious environment that you grew up in, and I was like, hold up, I want to know more about this. So I snuck into your DMS and I was so honored when you responded. So thank you so much for being here. I'm super excited to hear your story. So yes, the way we use sleep again is tell us about the religious environment that you grew up in. Mary Justice 2:50 Okay, well, let's let's jump in. Um, I I'm from Honduras originally. So I was adopted, and my adoptive family. My mom is also from Honduras. She's like a relative, but not like really close or anything. But anyways, that we was adopted and brought to the US and we lived in Arkansas. And so I don't know if you've ever been to Arkansas lived in Arkansas, it's pretty rural. And our family is Seventh Day Adventist. Arline 3:32 Oh, wow. Okay. We have had multiple people who were SDA on the show, Mary Justice 3:37 I would imagine. Absolutely. And I guess it was almost a normal thing. Growing when you grew up seven through evidence, I want to say it's almost like you're immersed in it, you're surrounded by it. You almost don't even know people that aren't SDA, because so there's actual towns that are Seventh Day Adventist? Arline 4:05 Yes, I was in Bible study with two chicks who were Seventh Day Adventists and one of them lived in a place in California that begins with an El Loma Linda. Yep, yep, I do remember. Yeah. And she was yeah, she told us all about it. Mary Justice 4:20 So there's there's a few. When we moved to Texas, it was to Keene, Texas. Okay. And that is a primarily Seventh Day Adventist town. Arline 4:32 Wow, that's fascinating. Yes. Mary Justice 4:36 And you as an Adventist you hear about all the other SDA towns and like when you apply for college, hey, guess what you're gonna apply to a SDA college town and guess where I went ended up in college I was in college Dale, Tennessee, which is a Seventh Day Adventist college town and it's actually yeah, so But starting in Arkansas, our family was very, I would say the fundamentalist like, I mean that we're gonna follow it to the tee. Sundown to sundown. And for people that don't know what that means it's Friday nights are out of date. I used to just sort of call it holy night. Because you know, the minute the clock struck that they would they have times they actually have calendars that they send out to the church. And it's a sundown sundown so you know what time sundown begins on Friday, what time it ends on Saturday. And between those hours of sundown to sundown between Friday night and Saturday night. You have to observe the Sabbath. And by that I mean you're not going to go to restaurants, you're not going to spend money. Your house better be clean. Wow. Yeah, it's um it's something. So Friday night was like the day that we prepared or Friday was the day that we prepared for the Sabbath to come in and the house had to be clean, and we got our clothes ready and washed and things done because Saturday, pretty much couldn't do anything except go to church. Come home and do eat a meal prepared at your house. Because you're not going to spend money and you're going to take a nap. Arline 6:31 Oh, I mean, for that. Mary Justice 6:35 As an adult, the nap sounds great. As a child, the NAP is torture. Arline 6:39 Not so much. Yeah. So I'm curious thinking about the kids. Could you read books instead of take a nap? Or was it like you had to sleep? Or is this too nitpicky? Although it sounds kind of nitpicky, so Mary Justice 6:49 no. And you know, I think I think that some people are to the form of extremists, where if you were gonna read something, it better be like religious material. Okay. Yeah, things of that nature. We weren't allowed to listen to what they called secular music. So our station was always you get we had two things we listened to it was either Christian music or classical music. That was it. Oh, okay. And that goes for a lot of seventh day. Adventists. Like, even the ones I know. Now, they don't listen to secular music. Arline 7:22 One of the women in the Bible study, I remember her talking about the inherent like superiority of pianos to drums, because we're like, like, inherently evil. And I was like, this has white supremacy, like all this feels so gross to me, but I didn't articulate that at the time. Mary Justice 7:45 I think saying it like that is perfect. Because it is yes, drums are not allowed. Absolutely not. You will never find a drum in a Seventh Day Adventist Church do know that there's more modern Seventh Day Adventist churches popping up here and there. A lot of them. So I'm from Texas now. We moved when I was like 10 to Texas. So there's, they're called cowboy churches here. Okay. Yeah. And everyone wears boots and hats and the deacons and pastors and they'll even have like the Texas flag shirts on and they'll take up the offering in cowboy hats. So they might be open to like a drummer too. But honestly, I haven't been to a Seventh Day Adventist Church and so many years, I couldn't tell you. But there's, there's just I feel like it's centered around a lot of shaming for for girls especially. And one thing that was interesting to me growing up is, you know, they were completely against Sunday being a day of worship, but they adapted to a lot of the Southern Baptist ideologies. Okay. So, I'm sure you've heard of Dr. James Dobson. Unknown Speaker 9:26 Yeah, yes. Mary Justice 9:28 So he was like, revered, in our household. Arline 9:33 Oh, that's fascinating, because, let's say we were Calvinists, so he wasn't like off the table because we listened to like Christian radio. But he was, I don't know, a lit I don't know a little bit culty. We wouldn't have said it that way at the time. Anyway, go ahead. I'm sorry. And Mary Justice 9:49 I mean, I'll say it now. So so, you know, growing up, my parents just oh my gosh, every book every tape he had It was in our house they read it listen to it worshipped it, basically. You know, they were very much into the whatever he said goes thing except for of course, the Sunday ideas. And in one of his things that he came up with is something called True love waits. Yes. Right. So, I was a I had to follow that I had to sign my little promissory note promising my future unknown husband that I would be a virgin and I had to slip a ring on my finger that said, do love whites Arline 10:42 marry my I did not grow up in the church. So I knew about it when we started going to church in high school, but like, I was already I guess, chewed up bubblegum, and there's, you know, all that whatever metaphors they use to shame girls, I was already there yet. So there was no ring on my finger. My dad, we never got into the Oh, I'm so sorry. Mary Justice 11:06 And I feel like it's taken me almost this long to see just how awful that is. You know, like, it's, it's, it's mess. But so the SCA has a lot of rules in place, especially for women. So dancing is not allowed ever. So I went to all private school up until my senior year, so I've only been to one year of public school, my entire list. So there was no such thing as dances or prom. So you'll have a banquet. You will get dressed and your shoulders must be covered at all times. Arline 11:47 Those shoulders will tempt cement hemp those voice. Mary Justice 11:51 Yes. So you had to have shawls. So we all had to go by these hideous shawls that you would see on, you know, like, an 80 year old woman probably. And were with our dresses. And then we went in it was a dinner. And usually something just like really cringey like, we actually had magicians that would come in. Oh, and that was the act for the evening. And then when that was done, you finished eating and that was it took some pictures and you left and that was the big thing. Yeah. And you're just sort of expected to follow along, you know, with the, all these rules, these guidelines, your your dresses aren't going to be too short, your shorts aren't going to be too short. You're never going to show your stomach You're not going to show your shoulders. For the good Christian Adventist women. Of course, you know, they're never gonna have any sort of jewelry on. They don't believe in jewelry. They don't believe in makeup. They don't dye their hair. They don't drink coffee, tea or anything with caffeine. Wow. Arline 13:01 So like it feels it feels infantilizing. It's like you're a child. Not you literally. I mean, like, the people in the church are children. And here are the rules. You have to follow it like it's micromanaging a bunch of kids that sounds Yeah, insulting? Mary Justice 13:16 It is. And so a lot of it they push off as like a health thing. Oh, this is this is for your health. So you can't you can't participate in caffeine of any sort, because it's a stimulant. And of course, you know, any alcohol is absolute no, no cigarettes, no, no, anything like that. But also, it's, you know, the true love waits thing comes into play there too. Like you're gonna be this good, virginal girl that's waiting on this invisible man. And you know, so I guess you're just waiting until you get married. That's what you have to look forward to, I guess. And so I kind of, I don't want to say rebelled against it. But I like demanded answers. Arline 14:04 Really, and this was in high school, or is this afterward? This is before Mary Justice 14:07 high school. So I don't know. Like my brother. I have a brother that he's not adopted. So he was their biological son, but he's five days older than me. So we grew up like twins. Oh, wow. Okay. And then I have an older brother who's 21 years older than me. Wow. Yeah. So he had his own family and stuff already. And he left the church a long time ago. But, um, so my brother, that's my age just. And it used to just drive me crazy because everything they said he just blindly followed along. And I used to call him the spy because like, his mission in life was to get me in trouble for not following along blindly. So if we were at school, and I stepped out of line, guess what? My parents found out your parents would know. Yeah. Right. And unfortunately, the teachers were the exact same way. So when I you know, and I did share this is on my Instagram a few times. When I got my first kiss, I was in seventh grade. And we thought were being really discreet. It was just a quick kiss on the lips. You know, that's like a huge milestone for every kid. It's your first kiss. One of those teachers at the administer elementary school I was at, called my mom. Oh, my goodness. And told my mom and I was grounded for a year. Holy cow. A year. A year. Yes. Wow. So it's I got, you know, called whore and everything else. So, Arline 15:40 I'm so sorry. From May I ask us like family or church people? Or Yes. Or Mary Justice 15:46 oh, my mom. Mary, oh, that's that was my mom her family has been Adventist all the way back like her great, great, great, whatever grandfather started an Adventist church, you know, in the island that she's from, so like, you know, this goes back forever. And she brought all the ideals that were forced on her. And it's like, she never wanted to step outside that she never wanted to question that. That was just, and then I felt like I guess saying just crazy. It's just a way to describe it simply as a child, but that's the way I just, I was like, this is just crazy. This is madness. You know, like, and, but one thing, you know, she seemed to sort of pick and choose sometimes because she's a very vain person. And there were a few things that she was okay with, for her. Like, so makeups always been fine for her. But if like other people were a lot of it, she had a lot to say. So and then yeah, so it's like the cherry picking, you know? So and then she did get her ears pierced at some point in her life, and every now and then she would wear earrings very seldomly. But, and she did wear a wedding ring. Another thing that's really discouraged, and I think it goes across the board in most churches, which I really strongly disagree with is divorce. Yeah. They strongly discourage it almost forbidden. In some cases, I feel like but my mom, her last husband just died. And that was her fourth marriage. Oh, wow. So I feel like in a lot of instances, yeah, she did pick and choose what fit her best. But there was judgment for those around her, you know. So I feel like there's a lot of that in religion itself. Arline 18:00 Yeah, the things that we're interested in, or we want to do for whatever reason, somehow or another, there's a way to make it work and have it in our in our way. I remember when I was young, and like I said, we started going to church in high school, but I wasn't like, when I used to tell my little testimony. I didn't become a Christian until I went to college. High school was just we just went to church. I didn't care about it. But I remember thinking, all these people here who seem prideful and mean, at the church, we were at always like harping on queer people. Yeah. Because because they're married and they have all their stuff. And I remember just as a teenager being like, you guys are picking and choosing I didn't know I don't have that didn't have the language board or anything. But yeah, it's, it's, um, it's easy. And I remember when Rachel Held Evans tried to do the whole like, year of biblical womanhood, where she literally tried to follow everything it tells women to do in the Bible. Yes, it's Mary Justice 19:00 just the sensation, don't to random stuff. Arline 19:03 I think she I didn't read the book, because at the time, she was kind of off limits in our little part of Christianity. But I feel like she did like sit on the edge of her house. Like when she was having a fight with her husband. I don't know. I might be like spreading rumors about her great self, so I shouldn't say that. But yeah, he tried to do it all. Anyway, I apologize. You keep going keep telling Mary Justice 19:25 me know that. I feel like I want to dive into that too. And just look it up cuz I tend to like go down these rabbit holes in my search for answers now. Arline 19:35 Yeah, I totally get it. I have not been any kind of believer in anything for a few years. But I still have a high respect for what little bit I knew about Rachel Held Evans. Right. She like read one book of hers right before I realized I didn't believe anymore, and I still have a high respect for her work. Mary Justice 19:54 I will definitely go down that rabbit hole later if I can remember her name. Arline 19:58 No, no worries. I'll send it to you. Okay. Good. Continue. So you were either still in high school or had you had gone to college? I'm not sure where you Mary Justice 20:06 were. I was probably still in high school at this point. Um, so another rule in our house and many other adventures households is you don't go to movies. Okay, and movies weren't just like that. It wasn't just like bad. Oh, you don't do that because it's bad. It was oh, this is a place of the ultimate debauchery. I mean, it was like, and my mom and my dad Well, it was mainly my mom honestly. scared the living hell out of us growing up. So the Piggly Wiggly and this is the post, I shared the Piggly Wiggly in Arkansas. It was located right next to the movie theater in Arkansas. So to get out of the car and go through the parking lot, you're gonna pass by the theater because the doors were like right next to each other. And my mom had told us growing up, that your guardian angels will leave you if you ever enter a movie theater. Oh, my goodness. So my brother and I'm terrified. And so we would get out of our station wagon keys. You know, that was like the car, the 80s and 90s. And we would just run and hold our breath because it was like we didn't even want to breathe the air that was surrounding the theater for fear that I don't know what would happen. Honestly, I don't think we knew. But we knew that God would abandon us. Oh my God. And so yeah, as a little kid that's terrifying. I remember that just being completely crazy. And Halloween. That was the other evil of the world. There was not even a mention of that. And I don't know if some people call it a holiday or whatever. I call it a holiday is my favorite holiday. But you didn't mention that in our house that no, absolutely not. I used to go to piano lessons. And so the piano books would come with just these, you know, pre made little pages that you would play and they would all have like different things. And sometimes they would have seasonal ones. And every now and then there'd be a Halloween page. My mom would lose her mind she'd rip it out. Or she'd take a Sharpie. And scratch the words of Halloween out and then write in these big, obnoxious, embarrassing letters to my piano teacher that we do not celebrate these kind of pagan horrible things for the devil and it was devil worship. And I would just be like, Oh my god, can I just play the piano now? It's just so much fanaticism just good work. Yeah, it's not it's nonsense, honestly. So you know, stuff like that. And it's crazy too, because like, I don't want to delve too much into like, the childhood surrounding because that's a whole nother rabbit hole. But it's was just so dysfunctional. At the same time, and then you know, you go to church, and you act perfect. And your dad is a deacon and your mom plays the piano in the church. And that's the way our life was we were there every Saturday. And you know, everyone looking in, oh, this is the perfect little Seventh Day Adventist family. And you know, then you come home and your mom is evil, and she's mean and hateful and makes your life hell. But I survived. And I And it's crazy, because I still have my faith. I am a Christian. I absolutely believe I do not push my beliefs on anyone because I don't like people doing that to me. Yeah. And I do respect other faiths and other faiths. And people that you know, don't believe that's fine too. But I am not of any religion. I feel like I've tried all the religions. I've literally went like church hopping through my adulthood adulthood, just going from like church to church just trying to find and not so much even just church but more like people or just a connection with anyone or fellowship or something to make me feel like included or after just this life of hell. And you know, I've never forced my kids to go we don't go really they will go with their friends if they want to go sometimes, um, but we weren't going to Baptist Church for a little while. That was just near the house. It was kind of convenient. And I was like, oh, let's try this out. and this was my last last attempt at religion really. Um, and we were there for I would say about six months or more. We didn't go like every Sunday or anything like that, but then come to find out, they start preaching one day and they're preaching politics, which I'm absolutely against Why are you preaching politics up here? And then also, they said that they did not allow divorced people to participate in activities with church like to help do anything like wow. And so to me, that just floored me. And that just took me right back to the whole. Let's cherry pick everything and we're going to I'm sorry, if you're excluding people. Now, if you've already lost me Arline 25:56 I want to go back a little bit. So how were your 20s? And I don't know about 30s. Because you said 80s and 90s, but I don't want to assume any age, but Mary Justice 26:04 Oh, no, I'm 37. Okay, we're about the same age. I'm sorry. I do jump around. Arline 26:09 Certainly. So was it I mean, were you still Seventh Day Adventist? Are you still some version of Christianity? How was it working? Mary Justice 26:17 So I guess I consider myself still SDA probably up until I was like, 18, when I just got completely like, Okay, this is craziness. And took that little James Dobson ring off my finger. I think my mom still has it. So when she found out that I had a serious boyfriend, she just like, lost her mind. And I was like, almost 19 years old at this point, you know. And she, like, unexpectedly, like said, we were going somewhere right in the pack something. And this is like the night before, and I was like, what she takes me out to this like cabin in the middle of nowhere to grill me about my sex life. Oh, my heavens, that yeah, it was horrible. And there was no like, literally no escape. I was in the middle of nowhere. Like, it was not just like humiliating, but it was almost like, traumatizing. Like, I feel like I'm an adult now. Like, you know, I'm being responsible. I really don't owe you any details about my life. Not at all. It was just mind blowing. So yeah, that ring. I don't know where that ring is. I don't care where that and because of that, sort of, I was going to a graduated from high school at that point. I that was see I was already out of high school. And I was at a community college that I myself was paying for. I'm at that time because I was like almost 19. And unbeknownst to me, my mom to get me away from that guy signed me up online. And got me accepted to southern Adventist University in college, Dale, Tennessee. Unknown Speaker 28:17 Oh, wow, that. Mary Justice 28:20 Yes. And once again, she and my brother pretty much decided what I was going to do with my life again. And they packed my stuff up one night, and literally, I mean, I had like one or maybe two days to prepare for this. I was like, I'm not going anywhere. And then it was like, Yes, you are. And I was still living at home. I was paying my bills and things and you know, paying for my college. But I was still living at the house. So she was like, No, you're going and it was like Where else was I gonna go with that point. Wow So my brother drove me down there and left me and that was the weekend before Christmas. And so I was there alone. Like, just like sobbing in this cinderblock room. I felt like I was in prison because it literally looked like prisons. In the state I'd never been to it didn't know anyone. And that was I only went there for I think it was two semesters total so just like a year and fled from the noise. It was horrible. Honestly, I can't remember if I did the second semester I may have left during the second semester and got my own apartment but the first semester was hell. They do treat you like a child going back to what you'd said earlier, you know that whole childlike thing. So you're an adult, you're paying for your college and it is not cheap. And you have a curfew at the college, and you are not allowed to wear jewelry at the college. And they have these people that they don't name so you'll never know who they are. But they work with the college and the probably peers of yours there that you might think of your friends that go tell the Dean who's wearing jewelry where they were spotted wearing jewelry, and you get fined. Arline 30:45 Because naturally it money. I mean, what why not? Yes, yes, Mary Justice 30:49 exactly. And unfortunately, it didn't even stop there. So there's something called Vespers. And if you're adventurous, you absolutely know what Vespers are. It's like this Friday night worship service, and you have to go and they have one on Wednesday night, too. But honestly, I don't think I ever made that one. So you had to go to so many a month like you have a quota. Wow. If you don't meet that. I know there's fines included in there. But I don't know if they can expel you for it. I can't really remember. But I do know that there is fines for that. And the same goes for church. So church is non negotiable. You're going to church. Yeah, yeah, that makes you you weren't going to church on Saturday morning, you will be and they will come in your room, they check your room, they check your bathroom. And if you're not going, you're gonna get a fine, you're gonna get in trouble. You're gonna have to talk to the dean eventually, whatever. So one of the girls I was talking to that wasn't like, you know, going along with this like me. She was like, Listen, this is what I do. I hide in my closet. So it's like these these cabinets like the Narnia type cabinet, you know? Right. And so like all your clothes, kind of like hanging down. And if you got behind them and just pull them down in front of you. You could even leave the closet doors open even for better effect. And that's what I would do because I would be like right there behind those clothes and they would check me off is gone to church like every Saturday. Arline 32:22 Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah. Don't have to hide in your closet. You're not grown people can count you as having gone to church. Oh, my Mary Justice 32:36 goodness. Exactly. It was madness. And I tried every which way around it. Tried sneaking out. I climbed up on the roof one night in a drunken stupor. Trying to get out because they locked down the campus. And I was up on top of this dorm that's like, you know, stories and stories high. And I'm like, me and another friend of mine. Were up there like crawling around. And there was like, people outside like surveying the campus looking for anyone. And we were trying to like not get caught. It's It was crazy. And I'm glad we didn't fall off the roof. Unknown Speaker 33:14 I could have gone really badly. Yeah. Mary Justice 33:17 So that was that was interesting times there for sure. I got many funds. And then I I thought it would be humorous, almost a friend of mine worked at Hooters. That's fine. And so I immediately went and applied and got a job there. And you know, it was fun. And it was funny too, because, you know, I had to report where I was to the dean because you can't come in after a certain time. And the managers I had because I worked at Applebee's. And I worked at Hooters in Chattanooga, Tennessee. And they would have to write me these big long notes whenever I would be late for curfew explaining why I was late because I was at work. Oh my goodness. And they were just like, Do you not see that this is crazy. And I'm like, oh, no, I do trust me. And then the dean would tell me I was lying all the time. And I was making up these notes and I'd have to go back to my bosses. And I finally got enough of that and moved off campus and got my own apartment and never looked back. Never went back to that school. Good. So that's how that went the rest of my college time was just you know, public colleges and I got a nursing degree. Which is also funny, small story. My dad made this list for me when I was like, seven, eight, maybe nine maybe not even that well. old saying what I could be when I grew up. And I remember there being three things on that list. I don't think there was a fourth thing. One was a nurse. Two was a teacher and three was a minister's wife. Wow. So, so telling, right? Okay. But unfortunately, I picked from that list. Arline 35:31 Now, did you become a nurse because you wanted to become a nurse? Or did was it like you'd that's all you felt you could do? Or Mary Justice 35:38 I think it was a lot of both of those things. Because I, it was something I was interested in, I've always been pretty empathetic towards people. And yes, I do like helping people. But it was also like, Oh, this is on the list. You know, like, maybe this will get some form of approval from my parents for the first time in my life. And there were a few times, I remember mentioning other career paths. And that was just like, not just discouraged, but like, just, there was a lot of just a lot of verbal abuse in that household. Arline 36:23 So at 18, you're like, I don't know that I want to be SDA anymore, at least. And then but you still went, but you went to the college because your force, your 20s have gone on after college. What happened next? Mary Justice 36:37 Well, I came home, I was actually planning to stay another year in college, Dale, while I was living in Chattanooga, near Collegedale, in my own apartment, paying my own way with everything and going to the community college in Chattanooga. And once again, my mom and my brother, I guess, sat down and had a powwow about my life together. And they called me one night. I was 20. And I remember I had a shift at work the next day. And my mom said, Your brother brought bought a plane ticket, and you need to go pick him up in the morning and he's driving you home tomorrow. Wow. There was no discussion. There was no Hey, guess what? I have an apartment here. Hey, guess what, I'm going to college here. I literally have a job to go to tomorrow. That was not a factor in my life. I felt like I had no say in my own life at 20 years old living in another state. I was in Tennessee and my parents or my my my dad passed away no four. But my mom and my brother, you know, made all my decisions from from freaking Texas. And I'm 20 years old. So once again, I felt like I still had no choice. I had no voice in the matter, which is just madness to me. I would never allow that to happen this like today. But I started packing my stuff that night. It was insane. And I had to call my bosses because I think I was still working at on who was working at Hooters, but I think I was picking up Applebee's still, and I had to tell him like, I'm not going to be back ever. Sorry. And I don't know, just I had to like leave and I had to luckily I had enough money to leave with the apartment complex to pay out for my lease that I had saved up, you know, because you can't just like abandon an apartment. Yeah, yeah. You have a lease. Yeah. But you know, I feel like with my mom and my brother, you know, that's, it's always been, they're gonna do what they want to do. And I just don't have a say I better just go along for the ride. So I ended up back in Texas on a whim at 20. And a few months later, I got pregnant. All right. And my life was already flipped upside down. Then it just I felt like it took a nosedive at that point, because telling your mom who's already like, the way she is that you're pregnant and unmarried at 20. Like, what, two or three months after coming home from Tennessee where she sent you in the first place. That was not fun. That was probably like the darkest time in my entire life, including my childhood. And I I'll never forget and you know, I was thinking about this the other day when we talked about having this conversation. My mom dragged me in. I mean, like, forced me to go to this counselor at the Adventist Church. And this was one of those cowboy churches, um, I was talking about. And I've never met this person, but I guess she was a friend of my mom. And she's like, I think she's a licensed counselor. And she works. For the church. Maybe she has an office somewhere else too. But she counsels inside the church. Well, anyways, my mom made me go in there, because my mom said that I had ruined her life and brought shame on our entire family. And, you know, all the fun things that I'm remember being in there, and I was like, scared to death. Like, I never wanted kids. Just wasn't a plan that I had for my life. Yeah, so I was planning to apply to like, overseas college program and go to London. So that was what I was going to be doing. I ended up pregnant. Well, I told my mom who demanded, like, what are you going to do? And I told her, Well, I'm gonna keep it. This is my kid. Like, I'm gonna figure this out myself. Like, nobody asked you for anything. I've been paying my own way for years. Well, she was pissed. And I remember her taking me to that counselor and crying just like bawling her eyes out. And I was sitting there. And I remember just being like, so enraged, like, I refused to cry, like, I wanted to cry. And I was so mad, and I was just, I was hurt and scared to death anyway. And it wasn't like, I could just be like, I am scared to death, like, what am I going to do? Because I had no one to say that to my mom tells this woman that she's literally praying to God for me to drop dead. Arline 41:52 Oh, my gosh, yeah. And this counselor, Mary Justice 41:54 and I'll never forget, she just sits there in like, nods like with my mom, like, Yes, I can understand why you would pray to the Lord for your daughter to die. And my mom was telling her that she was praying to just be able to plan my funeral, so that she could bury me and get on with her life. Arline 42:15 Oh, God. Mary Justice 42:18 So. And I felt like that was like one of the, I don't know, like, I don't want to say, biggest moments in my life, but more like just such a defining moment in my life to where I realized, you know, like, this person is no longer gonna have any sort of hold on me. This church is no longer gonna have any form of connection with me in my life, or my more my kid's life. And, you know, I felt like, and I've never forgotten that, obviously. But not once, they asked me how I was feeling not once they asked me anything about me or the baby, or, you know, nothing. My mom ordered me out of the house had moved in with the guy that, you know, we barely been seeing or talking to each other for like, what, two, three months? And we ended up having to just like, dive in and become adults, like overnight and deal with this. And oh, my gosh, but I would love to have a conversation with that counselor today. Oh, yes. And I've really thought about that. And that's the thing I want to go back to like when we started talking about this conversation. And I was thinking about, you know, like, the moments in my life that like really just not just pointed me away from religion itself, this organized thing of hatred that people have just created. That that's probably one of the most defining moments for that. And I would love to be able to tell that lady that like, shake her hand, like you really opened my eyes this day. But also, just like, how could you call yourself a counselor? How could you do that? The damage that you've done, not just to me, but I know there's been countless others like me, that have come in there actually needing someone to talk to and God forbid, they actually went out and did something to themselves. Because of the hatred, you spewed their way. And I feel like that goes against everything that the God I worship says, and teaches and you know, and when it comes down to it, you know, the Bible says, you know, God is love and that's just the end of that story for me, like Period, end of sentence. You don't get to exclude somebody because you want to you don't get to just shame or judge or just, you just don't get to do that because it just doesn't work that way. But yeah, I would I would love to either write her letter or find her and have a conversation about that one day. Hopefully, Arline 45:07 the internet does wonders. I'm sure you could find her. Mary Justice 45:11 It does Arline 45:22 Where are you now you're still a Christian, but you're not you're not religious. You're not doing the go to church stuff. But you still love Jesus? Mary Justice 45:29 I do. I do. I still have faith, I feel like there is something bigger than me that cares for me and others, and is probably absolutely horrified at the way we treat each other. And that's one thing, like, I feel like it's actually like, really easy for me to tell, like, when I'm meeting someone or talking to someone, and you know, they tell me Oh, whatever, and they start getting, you know, racist or whatever. And I just immediately know, like, okay, yeah, it's just not for me. Arline 46:05 No, I get it. My husband stopped, well realized he couldn't believe this. One thing that different ones on the podcast have talked about, it wasn't that I suddenly thought, You know what, I don't want to believe anymore. It's just all of a sudden, I don't think I believe this. Like, you know, everything in me. In 2017, my husband realized he couldn't believe in the God of the Bible. He's like, it's just there's too much. thinking God is good and loving. And just and seeing how the world is he's like, this is not, it's not mixing up quite right for him. And then by 2019, I was like, actually, I don't know that I believe any of this in mind was for my mental health. I didn't realize how much this stuff I believed was causing a lot of my mental health problems. But it took us a long time to figure out like, Well, what do we believe? Do we have to believe anything? Is it you know, where do we find community? You mentioned that just trying to find a sense of belonging, like so where do you find that now not being part of like, churches? Where Where do you find Mary Justice 47:04 and I noticed some people it's gonna sound like insane. No, probably gets my rolls. But honestly, I found that online. Arline 47:10 Oh, girl, we do not roll because most of us, our closest friends that we talk to often are people that we've never met in real life yet. Anyway, go ahead. Exactly, Mary Justice 47:19 exactly. I space on a whim. I've seen this like horrible depression. And I just kind of like, had to try to snap myself out of it. You know, the, my son had gotten diagnosed with, you know, autism at that time, and I didn't know anything about autism. And it was just like, a lot to deal with on top of the family issues that I already have. And I just was like, Okay, I didn't know one thing about Instagram, nothing zero. And I absolutely can't stand Facebook. So I was like, I'm just gonna check this out and see what this is. And I'm just gonna create a Twitter is where I started. And I sort of was like, trying to figure Instagram out but didn't have a clue. So in, I don't know, I feel like I've taken a lot of like, my dark moments and sort of turn those into like this humorous onset. But it kind of, I don't know, it's kind of always helped me cope with things, just laughing about things. And I try to laugh off a lot of just, and I've even told stories to my friends. And they're almost, like, horrified by it. And I'm just like, laughing because it's like, it's almost unbelievable. Arline 48:31 Yeah, and I've heard people say, like, if I don't laugh, I will just cry. So Mary Justice 48:37 I never stopped crying. So, in slowly, but surely, like these other people just connected with me, and they were funny, and they had their own stories, and they had, you know, horrible things that happened to them. And we're all just clicking and there's no hateful. I mean, there's always hateful people on the internet. But, you know, once you find your people, they're, they're great. You know, and, and you can find your people. That's the thing, like, they're out there. Arline 49:06 They are out there. They may not be geographically close to you. But now they're, you can get Yes, you can find them. Mary Justice 49:13 Yes. And I feel like that's brought me not just community but like comfort and support and acceptance. And I've learned so much about, like, you know, kids with disabilities, people with disabilities, you know, the the queer community. I feel like I've really been able to understand how to be a better ally there. Things like that. And I think that's great. And right now I'm kind of trying to get to know like, my, my real like roots like where I'm from my my family and things like that. So that's kind of what I've been diving into lately. Arline 49:58 That's wonderful. I was raised by my dad. And like I said, I didn't grow up in church world. But my real mom left when I was little, and she had two other daughters with other men. And they, they were put into foster care and I was an adult when I first met one of my sisters, my other sister had passed away when she was little. But yeah, one of my sisters just found some old paperwork and found our real mom. I had always known a real mom, we didn't like I wasn't a bust security therapist. Oh, I lived with my dad. He took custody, but and so I still knew my real mom. But then yeah, I don't know what year 22,006 I think she found some paperwork, my sister and then we, we reconnected. And it can be a strange experience. But it's, it's cool. It's just like, yeah, that I don't know. It's amazing. It's really cool. It can be really traumatizing and also can be good. Tell us more about Mary fairy Burberry. And like just what you're doing there because I love your tweets that used to go on Instagram, and they're just great anyway, but go ahead. It's more Mary Justice 51:11 like a mom humor. Yeah, plenty old. And my kids think I'm so uncool, but I don't care. It's to kind of laugh off, you know, just the adulthood sucks. Yeah, it's just helps to laugh. And then also I do post a lot of things about autism, you know, raising a child with nonverbal autism and all the things that go along with that, which, you know, therapies and, you know, other thing like little milestones and you know, there's no such thing as really a little milestone to a parent of a medical child or disabled child, everything is just massive, you know, so. And I've met other parents like that. And so just seeing their little wins along the way and, you know, learning about their kids and oh, hey, like learning, you know, I found out so much cool things and then getting to connect with those parents and I even met up with have a few moms that came to the area that was really cool. And I would like to, to hopefully, you know, make a few mom friends in the area to hang out with every now and then that would be kind of nice. Arline 52:32 Yes. I feel Yeah, leaving church for us, we, which are our stuff kind of coincided with COVID Like, my husband was still going to church with us while I was still trying to figure out what I believed. And then like the end of 2019 I was like, I don't think I believe anymore. And then 2020 We were we'd still gone but then just everything stopped and so it was like we just everything stopped and so we you lose a lot of community if you don't go back to church after that. And um, we were not going back and and it was interesting because some people could handle my husband not being a Christian and are still coming to church, but when neither one of us believed it was like okay, that's too I can't y'all God demons or something like Mary Justice 53:12 this is ridiculous. Arline 53:16 So yeah, you just finding in real life friends is so hard as a grown up. I just want to share it. This is out. I'll talk to you. I can have conversation like when we're at the playground or whatever. Oh, my gosh. Oh, yes. Okay, so any recommendations, you have podcasts you love Instagram, people, YouTube books, anything that either is deconstruction related, or just something you're loving right now? Mary Justice 53:38 Well, I've found, you know, the podcasts that you're doing to be really informative. I was listening the other night to another girl that had recently done an SDA program and I can't remember her name. But I just I was listening because it just really fascinates me. And it's sort of comforting to just like, hear, like, oh, all these other people went through this stuff. And then and even on Tik Tok, you'll find I was going down the James Dobson rabbit hole the other night, and just finding all these other people, and they were sharing their stories. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, I feel so Arline 54:13 right now. Well, the graceful atheists, I found them in 2020, and just started listening. And yes, just hearing other people tell their stories. It's like, oh, my gosh, I can relate to that. Yes, I thought that same thing. I wondered that same thing. And seeing how people have landed in different places, and there's no like, right way to do any of this. Like, yeah, it's comforting. I felt seen. And then in 2021, I actually was on the podcast to just tell my story. And then things Yeah, and then things have evolved from there. But um, but yeah, just hearing other people's stories. Oh, it's so good. It's good. Mary Justice 54:47 It is. It's, it's nice. Yes, Arline 54:51 it feels validating. Just like like I was saying about the stuff you post. Like it's just validating, like, I'm not the only mom who has said this bizarre thing to my child. But like, Why did I have to say these words out Mary Justice 55:02 loud? Yes. Arline 55:04 Okay. Well, Mary, thank you so much for being on the podcast. This was wonderful. I really appreciated you being here. Mary Justice 55:10 Thank you for having me. It was fun Arline 55:17 my final thoughts on the episode. I am not going to fangirl. I did a little bit in the episode, but don't judge me. I love doing this episode, like I really enjoyed getting to hear Mary's story. I did not grow up in the church. So it continues to blow my mind, the bizarre things that religious people teach their children and believe themselves. And I know I believed a lot of them. But just all the rules, it just feels like micromanaging. And I know, for myself, the idea of it brings so much anxiety I can't imagine, well, I guess I have experienced what it's like to live under that. But from the time you're a child, just the constant nitpick of everything that you do or say or think we're aware, or want to read or want to watch or how to spend your time, I mean, just rules and rules and rules. It's it's just so much thinking about how Mary has found community online. It makes my heart so happy. Because the internet is huge. And like she said, like you'll find your people, they may not be close around you in in real life or NGO is so important if we can have that. But if we can't find that if we can't find that community, online, it's such an almost like, endless resource. So yeah, find community find other people to be around you to find comfort and friendship and just all the things that people feel like they have to be in church to find. Hopefully, this younger generation, you know, the rise of the nuns, fewer and fewer people are being part of organized religion, fewer and fewer people are believing in anything, but they still need other people around them, they still need that human connection and community. I'm so glad that Mary's been able to find it and so glad that there is a resource like the internet like Instagram and Twitter. Yes, I love it so much. This was a great interview. Thank you so much Mary for telling your story. David Ames 57:28 The second the grace Thought of the Week is chosen family. It seems like we've had several guests recently who have experience a lot of loss and pain from family members who didn't act like family, particularly parents who did not act like parents. And on this side of deconstruction deconversion our relationships with family members can be very, very difficult. And it's just a reminder that you get to choose the people that you spend time with. You get to choose the people who you pour your love and time into. You get to choose who you call family. Next week, I interview Tracy Tracy comes from a Catholic background. She's also a psychiatrist working with trauma victims. That's going to be a great conversation. You won't want to miss that. Until then. My name is David and I am trying to be the graceful atheist. Join me and be graceful. The beat is called waves by MCI beads. If you want to get in touch with me to be a guest on the show. Email me at graceful atheist@gmail.com for blog posts, quotes, recommendations and full episode transcripts head over to graceful atheists.com This graceful atheist podcast a part of the atheists United studios Podcast Network Transcribed by https://otter.ai