This week’s guest is Beth. Beth grew up in a fundamentalist Christian home that revered James Dobson, Jerry Falwell and all those who created the “Moral Majority.” Her father was a pastor whose sermons centered on the End Times and protecting their families from the “shifting culture,” (read: all the movements happening in the 60’s and 70’s). 

As a teen, she lived a double life, keeping plenty of secrets from her parents. However, as a young adult, followed all the rules with the expectation that the “umbrella of God’s protection” would take care of her. It didn’t.

It took decades of trying to do what was “right” and watching the promises of the Church come to naught before she finally took the leap out of Christianity. She now identifies as SBNR—spiritual but not religious. Beth is now able to trust her own judgment and make decisions that are best for her. No “umbrella of protection” needed. 

Recommendations

Podcasts

Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle

Indoctrination

Trust Me

A Little Bit Culty

Straight White American Jesus

Books

Untamed by Glennon Doyle

Leaving the Fold by Marlene Winnell

Any book by Anne Lamott

Shameless by Nadia Bolz Weber

You are Your Own by Jamie Lee Finch

Interact

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Support the podcast
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Deconversion
https://gracefulatheist.com/2017/12/03/deconversion-how-to/

Secular Grace
https://gracefulatheist.com/2016/10/21/secular-grace/

Attribution

“Waves” track written and produced by Makaih Beats

David Ames  0:11  
This is the graceful atheist podcast United studios Podcast Network. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome to the graceful atheist podcast. My name is David and I are trying to be the graceful atheist. Please consider reading and reviewing the podcast on the Apple podcast store, rate the podcast on Spotify, and subscribe to the podcast wherever you are listening. We have our merchandise store on T public where you can get your graceful atheist and secular Grace themed items. The link will be in the show notes. If you're in the middle of doubt, deconstruction, the dark night of the soul, you do not have to do it alone. Join our private Facebook group deconversion anonymous and become a part of the community. You can find us at facebook.com/groups/deconversion. Special thanks to Mike T for editing today's show. On today's show, or lean interviews, today's guest Beth Beth grew up during the time of the Moral Majority. She was a PK. She went through a quote unquote rebellious period during her youth, but came back to the church to try to do everything right. It wasn't until decades later that she was able to deconstruct her faith and experience the freedom on the other side. Here is our Lean interviewing Beth.

Unknown Speaker  1:43  
Beth, welcome to the graceful atheist podcast.

Beth  1:46  
Thank you very much. I'm really happy to be here. Yes,

Arline  1:49  
I'm excited to hear your story. You and I've chatted a little bit through the deconversion anonymous Facebook group. And yeah, I'm glad to get to hear your whole story. So we usually begin, just tell us about the religious environment that you grew up in. Okay,

Beth  2:05  
well, I was born into a pastor's home and independent fundamental Baptist pastor's home. Oh, wow. And so it's all I ever really knew. And I'm the third of four children. I'm very extroverted came to the planet very curious, asking lots and lots of questions. I was born in a small town in central Florida. But in 1959, my dad took a pastoral calling to an Independent Baptist Church in the Atlanta area. Okay, so he was the pastor of that church, if you can believe it in this day and age, for 44 years. Wow. It relocated three different times in the Atlanta area. But it was always in that area. So the landscape of my childhood was just centered on the church, and our version of Christianity. My dad networked with other Independent Baptist pastors in the Atlanta area in the 1960s. Most of those people were Bob Jones University graduates. And quite frankly, anyone who had any connection to BJ you was just considered auto approved. That was the that was just the gold standard for the fundamental Baptists at that time. And so he basically took his cues on the way we should all be living our lives on the sermons he preached from Bob Jones University from Jerry Falwell, who kind of came to prominence in the 70s. And you know, he eventually started the Moral Majority. And then James Dobson came out with his, you know, parenting books, strong willed child, which I was considered to be, and I'm sure my parents were not wrong about that. Just to be honest, but in his preaching, the sermons were a lot about protecting your families from the shifting culture, and you know, kind of railing about things in politics. And there were a lot of sermons on Hell, the evils of rock and roll communism and the Red Scare, teaching about in times, you know, lots of scary sermons from the book of Revelation. And we were taught that the second coming of Christ would be at any moment. So the most important thing that you could do was to speak to every single person you encountered whether you they were a total stranger or not, and say to them, if you died tonight, do you know if you would go to heaven? And if not, I'll tell you how you can be sure if that and that was the way people in my church were taught to be. And even though I was extroverted and loved people, I always felt embarrassed to do that it felt really intrusive to me. It was difficult for me to get on board with that. And, you know, I questioned everything. And it really was not appreciated. I was in public schools up through the seventh grade before our parents started putting us in private Christian schools. So in our home, and in our church, you know, there were very strict rules around our behavior, the way we could talk, that way we could dress the media we could consume, and we were never really taught any type of boundaries, or self awareness, other than the fact that be aware, you're very simple. That, you know, yeah, that that's what the self awareness was, was all I'm focused on. So I was saved, and baptized by the age of five. So I guess I had a really long list of sins by that. I

Arline  6:04  
know, right? Like little children have no concept of Oh, my heavens.

Beth  6:09  
Yeah. Yeah, you know, like talking back to your mothering, and having to get a spanking, those were the deep sins from those times. And that Independent Baptist church movement was really growing in the southeast at the time. And that was also during the rise of the civil rights movement, the women's movement, the anti war movements. And so because of all those things, being in the news, we did as a church and a family, a lot of othering of people who just weren't like us. And the whole tone of that really lacked compassion, and you know, just about for anyone who was different than us. And for me, I was just fascinated by other people who weren't like us. You know, so like, occasionally in elementary school, if that got to go to a friend's home, or go to a sleepover or something like that, with a family that wasn't like ours, I was just fascinated, and love to see that, oh, they don't go to church. But wow, they're the nicest sweetest people. And that was just very curious to me. I thought that's very, very interesting. And then when in when I got into the 70s, and became a teenager, all of those strict rules were harder and harder to deal with.

Beth  7:28  
Yes, I imagine you were there, my dad was so big on trying to keep us from watching the wrong things on TV, that back then when my mother would go get the weekly groceries, she would buy that little TV Guide magazine. And it would tell you a little synopsis of all the shows that are going to be on the major networks for the next week. And she would hand it to him when she got home from the grocery store. He would take out a ballpoint pen, sit down, flip through it, read every synopsis and write the word no, very large. The process. And that's how we knew when we turned on the TV and we picked up the TV Guide. What we could and mostly could not watch.

Arline  8:14  
I was gonna say he picks no instead of like, here are the things you can watch. It's here the lot. Yeah,

Beth  8:21  
exactly. Yeah, yeah, it was definitely all about that. That's for sure. And also to there was this pressure that because we weren't a preacher's children, then we were being watched by everyone in the church. And you know, when you're an adolescent, that is just the worst. Feeling, you know, it's you must be a good testimony. You know, you can't embarrass your dad, you can't embarrass the church.

So we're along the way. And they're Bill Gothard. You know, he came to the fore, and his first conferences in those early 70s. It wasn't called IBLP. Yet, it was called the Institute in basic youth conflicts. That's what it started as, uh huh. And he came to Atlanta, and he did these big conferences, I think down at the Civic Center, if I recall correctly, so there were lots and lots of conservative churches in the area that came to hear him speak and I was made to go to two of those conferences as a teenager. And, and the the main thing I remember was all that emphasis on the authority structure of the umbrella protection. Yes, yeah, that's covered in shiny happy people on Amazon Prime about the IBLP called, so everything about that was authoritarian. It was misogynistic and It just reiterated, like the conditioning I had from birth that as a female, because I was female, it was just my place to submit and, and stay in my place. And then I would be safe and all would be well in my world. So I was never prepared for anything else. As as a female, my sister and I were not taught how to manage finances. We were not taught to be ambitious about anything, you know, hopes and dreams, because that was already laid out for us in the Bible as to what our place was going to be. We were told that if we did go to college, the only purpose would be to find a husband and you didn't even have to worry about graduating. It's just all about finding someone to marry. Because it's that person's job to take care of you. Yes. You know that you don't really need your own agency. That that's that's just a bridge too far. Oh, wow. Yeah. So basically, I did what a lot of teenagers do, and oppressive situations, I just lived a double life. You know, I sang in the choir on Sundays and top children's church, but I was sneaking out of my parents house in the middle of the night to be with my friends. I was looking for all kinds of ways to get around the rules. I basically took the list of things they told me I could not do and I just made it my to do list. Yeah, and I basically checked off every box before I was 18. All right, there you go. Hey, they they put it on a list?

Arline  11:32  
Yeah. And that's the thing. That's the whole thing with like, the forbidden fruit when you literally say here, here is a church tree that I'm going to sit in the middle of a garden and then tell you not to eat that tree. That's like parenting 101. You don't? You don't do that. Yeah, that's right.

Beth  11:47  
That's right. So as a result of that, when I was 17, and in between my junior and senior years of high school, I got kicked out of my Christian high school. Oh, wow. I remember along with, along with, with two boys that I had actually run away with to Colorado one summer. Oh, wow. Yeah. While my parents were ironically, at a youth ministry, preaching to teenagers. Oh, wow. Yes. Yes. And yes, it did get their attention. I imagine it did. Yeah. And when when we were found, and I was retrieved, you know, wasn't 18 yet. And because I, I messed up my senior year of high school, I basically was told that, you know, they had to watch me all the time. I had to finish my senior year of high school through back then, you know, there was no online thing. So you had to do that through like, a through the snail mail, correspondence school. Take your classes. So I did that. So I finished my senior year in three months in the fall of 1973. So my parents told me that because I was going to graduate by Christmas time that I had to go to a Christian college in January of 74. And they first said, our first choice for you is Bob Jones. And I busted out laughing and said, I won't last three days. And, and they and they knew it. They knew that. And then my dad found out about this very small, independent Bible believing College in Florida, that a pastor friend of his was on the board of and he asked me if I would be willing to go there. And I said, Yes, because I was just in anywhere but here mode. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what I did. And honestly, it was just so good to be away from all of that drama and scandal that I had caused. And, and and so, you know, I really did enjoy my time in college. I really did. Yeah, yeah, I did enjoy that. I did actually graduate. But I also did meet my first husband there. And yeah, he he kind of like you. He didn't grow up as a Christian. But he did come to faith when he was in college living overseas, and so that's why he came to a Christian college.

So we ended up getting married and starting her family. You know, we had three children born very close together in the early 80s. So they were super busy years and my husband was actually working at our alma mater at that Christian college while he was getting advanced degrees, a masters and a PhD and And, and because I was running a household and have three little kids, I just did part time jobs as I could. And I shuffled them around and ran the home, and we were very active in the church, and you know, how you want your kids in the program since that, so that becomes your social life, you know, becomes your whole life. And, and so we did that, where he worked, they did not pay well at all. So we, we really struggled financially, and it was just a constant source of stress. And, you know, I was always praying, you know, and doubling down on all of that, you know, that, Oh, I knew God would take care of us all of that, but it was just so hard. And as he added to his education, you know, you should make more money based on that. Right. And it just was not happening to the level that it would have, you know, outside of it being a small ministry. And, you know, as our children get a little older, you know, our, in our marriage, we started having conflicts over our parenting styles. And in his work environment, at that Christian College, which it no longer exists, the school went out of business several years ago. The leadership had changed over. And a couple of I call them Bo Joe's Bob Jones students. Were running it. And yeah, there was some, yeah, it just the way that they work, they were just harsh. They were harsh. And, and they didn't seem to care that much about how little all these people with young families were getting paid. And but that was somehow supposed to be spiritual, because this was God's work, and all your rewards will be in another life. There

Arline  16:49  
you go. They don't have to tell you a whole lot, because this isn't what this is about. This is about serving the kingdom. And yeah, yep.

Beth  16:57  
Yep, that's exactly what it was like. And so you know, I just kept thinking, well, we're doing this for God. And you know, so it's almost like a magical thinking is going on. After a while in your brain. You know, that you think that prayer, and just, oh, maybe I just need to go to another Bible study. read another book. Yeah.

Arline  17:15  
All of that. I mean, what are their options? They don't give you any other options. It's just getting the word pray, being community, getting the word pray and being community. There's they don't give you anything else. Fasting? Sometimes. Yeah.

Beth  17:28  
Yeah. I mean, that's just the way it was. And then when the early 2000s, rolled around, he left his job there. And he got a very well deserved position in a secular college. And I was so glad to see that. And with our kids who were now all living away at college, I thought we might be able to reset our relationship, you know, just have a different time. But that was not going to be, which was such a shock to me. Oh, no. And I was absolutely stunned, you know, by the fact that he told me that he just didn't want to be married anymore. And I'm sorry, you know, at a time when you know, and so it was just really shocking. And, you know, the fight flight, freeze fawn reactions to trauma. I'm a freezer. Yeah. And I just stand when it comes to trauma. And yeah, I was just stunned because I didn't know how I was going to live my life. Because, you know, I thought there was this story that I can see the end of Yep. Of how things were going to go. Now, he did agree to go with me to a Christian therapist. Honestly, I think that therapists let it let us go to therapy too long. Like, I think he probably could tell in the first few sessions that there was no way we were staying together. Yeah. But, but part of it too, was me digging in. I just would not accept the D word. You know, I just It wouldn't go inside my brain. And there was in the Christian circles we were in that was a huge shame to go through a divorce, man. That was considered a big deal. So anyway, unanswered prayers again, right. So these were the cognitive dissonances. Right, that were happening along the way. And, and probably the biggest thing about me for the divorce at the time, because of the circles we were in, I just felt like a failure. And I felt like a cliche, you know, the midlife crisis happened. Ah, I say, yeah, right. Right. Cuz I was around 48. At that time, I should say we were

we did divorce. And I found myself on my own was something I'd never thought would happen to me. And, you know, I was just grieving I was facing You know, oh, it's up to me what I do next? Oh, wait a minute, God, God, I'm sure God's gonna be in there with me. And we're gonna do this together, you know. And so, I stayed in church, you know, I mean, I had doubts about all of this, but it was just all inside of me, you know, that I was holding inside. And we had been a really visible family in our church, there was a church of about 1500 people. And I thought I had 1500 friends, you know. But basically, what I found out was that I have maybe five left from that church. It was so weird to come to that realization about that. Yeah, that if everything's going great. Yes, you're, you're, you're in the in crowd. Right? That is definitely the way it felt to me. So I started looking for another church. And I found this little Presbyterian Church USA, in our town. And I slipped in there one Sunday on the back row. And the the service was, it was a progressive Church, which I wasn't used to, but the whole service was so refreshing. And I thought to myself, Oh, I'll never be in leadership in church again, because I've got the big D up on the shoulder, you know. But as I kept going and meeting people, I found out that the current interim pastor had been divorced. And I'm like, say what? Oh, wow. Yeah. Rebels? Oh, oh, oh, yeah. I mean, I was just and then women were behind the pulpit to participating. And it was such a shock to my system. And I was like, wow, this is incredible. So as that got to know people, and they found out my background, they were like, you know, you should be tapped to be an elder and the short story is they, they really kind of put me up on spiritual crutches. Really lovely people. And they did, you know, affirm my gifts and, and I decided to become an elder in the Presbyterian Church, USA. And I did that, and it just felt good to me. All of that was good to me. And, you know, nobody there saw me as damaged. You know, yeah, the way that I did the way that I had felt they were wonderful. And I wished I had stayed there. But what happened was some, some college friends of mine told me that a new church had started in the area. It was a P with a PC, a pastor. So the Presbyterian Church in America is a much more conservative. They're a break off from the PC.

Arline  22:40  
Yeah, we were part of that. And we learned, because we were PCA. You had to learn how the bad PCUSA people had had gone rogue and believed all this crazy stuff. But we were the true church. And the conservative. Oh, yeah. So I'm familiar with the, a little bit of that.

Beth  22:57  
Yeah. Yeah. So that's really, really, yeah, it was interesting. And I really was taken with the new young pastor of that church, I got really involved. And I actually ended up leaving my PCUSA church to go be a part of that little Turk. So that was kind of interesting. But I did meet lovely people there. It was an interesting experience. But I think it kind of held me back from broadening my horizons, because I made that decision.

Over time, you know, after I helped my youngest child who had graduated from from college to move to San Francisco to start her career, when I came home, from that trip, you know, I was just feeling very alone, you know, in spite of the fact that I was working, and I have my church friends, and you know, and then kind of a perfect storm started to form that I completely misread. So basically, what happened was an old friend from my Christian High School, contacted me and said, Oh, do you remember this mutual friend of ours from high school? Well, he's also divorced. Would you like me to connect? You know, you too. And the short story is, I said, Yes, sure. Why not? You know, so I started talking to that guy, and emailing and then talking on the phone, and then he came to see me and we started dating and our relationship moved very, very quickly. And we seemed very, very compatible. And instead of doing my due diligence about him, I really rushed into it because I'm thinking, God's answer my prayers. He's open this door, and it's my turn for happiness. And of course now I know that's just you know, all those chemicals in you that high you get from a new

Arline  24:54  
love relationship in a new relationship energy. Yep, exactly.

Beth  24:58  
That's exactly what it was some apart, but I kept thinking, you know, like, he seemed to be so compatible spiritually. We were praying together. We were reading Scripture together, we, because we had known each other when we were younger, we remembered each other's families, he didn't seem to be a stranger. You know, it's that kind of situation. And so I married him with, you know, after not, not a lot of time, just few months. And, like, for six years, I was with someone who actually had very serious mental health issues. And, and they presented very gradually. And so there were like, lows, you know, and then highs, and the lows, and then highs. And so I thought the highs were from my prayers, those were my answer prayers, when things when things would get better along the way. And, you know, he had a lot of things he had been hiding from me about his past. And so I would get information in a slow drip. Sometimes it was things that would come in the mail to him, or some phone call he got where he kind of had to tell me stuff. And it took a while to figure it out. But I discovered he had a he had a criminal past for domestic violence. Oh. And it was just such a shock. And I so I felt very embarrassed. I felt stupid, I felt ashamed. You know, that I gone into this marriage that I had rushed in. And then I'm thinking, oh, wait a minute, God, this was supposed to be a God thing. What's going on here? And so I did what I usually do when I feel traumatized, I kind of froze, I kind of felt paralyzed. And I just doubled down on my prayer. Like, I thought that would be a shield. That was, you know, going to protect me, you know, from it. And, you know, it ended after a very threatening encounter with him, where for my own safety, I had to sneak out and stay with some friends. But while I was did that a couple of days later, he died in our home by suicide. Oh, oh, gosh. Yeah. So you talk about wondering where God was? Yes, exactly. Yeah.

Arline  27:19  
Like all all the praying and the waiting and the wandering, and then a traumatic event like that happening. And it's all the questions, you have all the questions. Yeah.

Beth  27:29  
And then, of course, I stayed in freeze, because that was a whole new level. It was, it was such, it was such a shock. It was so awful to deal with, it happened in the home we shared. Thankfully, I was with friends. So I wasn't the person who actually discovered, you know, him. It was my friend who told me to go outside when he discovered him. And so it was really, really tough. And, you know, I did get to have some therapy sessions after that about grief and so forth. But I mainly just did what I usually do and just kept going, working. I'm very task oriented. You know, just trying to get my bearings again, in life after going through all of that, and just also was questioning myself like, How in the world did I get here? How to get this situation? Yeah. Yeah, it was really rough. And then I started having strange physical symptoms of a almost feeling paralyzed. I actually landed me in an ER when I got to where I currently stand. And basically, it was my body holding trauma. Yeah, unprocessed trauma. And thankfully, the emergency room I went to it didn't take that long for the doctors and nurses to figure that out. That that's what was going on with me. So, a real a real beginning of healing came for me when I stopped attending church entirely. And I realized, Sunday's Sundays are wonderful, right? I had spent literally my entire life never having just a Sunday for how I wanted to spend it. And so I just got back into my body is what I did, I rested a lot. I went to yoga, all the more I started meditating, you know, I started to then not feel as slowly because I was like, Oh, I'm here for me. Oh, I started enjoying my own company. Yes. And I realized that the relationship that I had neglected my entire life was the one with me.

Arline  29:46  
Because you're taught from the time that you're a little bit, especially as a female, you need a man to take care of you and do this for you and do that for you. And, and there's no relationship with yourself. I haven't thought of it that way. Yeah, exactly, yeah. Yeah,

Beth  30:01  
yeah, I'm like, I'm actually a person with her own thoughts, needs, wants all of that. And I just started feeling more alive with that realization, and realizing that I had my own inner wisdom, that I've always been intuitive. And, you know, that's why I kind of identify as spiritual because I've always gotten vibes about other people. But I wasn't that great with knowing what my own vibes were. Yeah, which was, which was kind of interesting. But I was just grateful to be alive and to be able to feel safe again. And so I just embraced the personal agency over my life, and felt so free. So I prioritize the relationship with me and I have vowed to never abandon her again. Oh, yeah. And it's, it's been amazing. And I've also had just learned how to set boundaries, because I cannot make that vow to myself if I don't set boundaries.

So I realized I had a dream I had filed way in my brain that someday I wanted to move to Northern California, and live near my daughter in her family. And so I realized, why not? Yeah, so I relocated here six and a half years ago, and I absolutely love it. I haven't, I've never looked back. I've never regretted it. I'm far away from all the rest of my, my family, who all live in the east, but, but this is a place I belong. And I think about it every day, there's so much natural beauty, I love hiking. I love walking I love. I mean, there's such diversity out here among people, people from all over the world. And it's so fun to hear people's stories and build relationships. It's just really an incredible joy. So I'm grateful for my three great kids and my grandchildren. I also have a really good relationship with my first husband. Oh, good. So I don't like to call him my ex, I actually refer to him as my husband. And, you know, he and I are really good friends. I mean, we have a lot of history, right? That goes back to our, our 20s. And we share children and grandchildren. So I'm very grateful that you know, in that sense, we are still a family. It took a lot of doing to get there in my heart, but I got there. And it's been a good thing for our whole family. And then the online communities have been great between podcasts. And like, I'm not a person who posts a lot online. But I'm more stalking on Facebook, even in our deconversion group. I do more reading, they're responding. And I love that I love that opportunity to do that. And so I would say my, my deconstruction could be described as death by 1000 cuts. You know, over time it came became very clear to me that you know, very little in life can be reduced to the binary of any kite that's good or bad, right or wrong. Instead, everything is nuanced and complex, right? Yeah, I mean, so curiosity and ambiguity and just observing, I mean, and letting things be what they are. It's a much more peaceful way to live. And so I'm much less anxious than I used to be. And just more open, and the stories of other people endlessly fascinate me, which is why I absolutely love podcasts like gap, for sure. So I get, you know, I don't like labels, but I guess I am an SB nr spiritual but not religious. Yeah, I don't attend church, although I work for one. I work for a very progressive PCUSA church support staff. And I actually love what they do in social justice, and in the communities out here. They're great, very, very inclusive in every way. It's just a joy to watch that. I have very supportive and loving relationships with some of my nieces and nephews who have D converted. And I treasure our conversations because I can have different conversations with them than they can have with other family

Arline  34:35  
members. That makes sense. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Beth  34:39  
And so my other my siblings are all still, you know, practicing Christianity. And so it's just not a topic any of us ever talks about with one another. Although I'm sure they all talk about me because I've always been in the one in the family who thought otherwise. So like, like when Sharon announced at the age of 60, she was moving to California, I'm sure they all rolled their eyes and said, and who else would do that? And our family? Just staying on brand. I love it. I love it. Yes. So I do want to say that I can't help realizing that over the past few years, it's become super obvious to me, that those that are bent on destroying our democracy, and forcing Christian beliefs on all people are actually a product of the past two generations of evangelicals, especially those of the fundamentalist tight. Yeah, that makes sense. And as I've seen that happening, and unfolding, you know, I didn't see that one coming. I really didn't. Because, you know, back then it seemed fringe. And now it's moved into the mainstream. And so I just thought it would say that, because it's, it's quite startling to me, that that is happening right now. And that it's related to how I was raised.

Arline  35:58  
Yeah. Right. Because before the internet, yeah. You know, well, I grew up a generation below you. And it's like, I didn't grow up in the church. So I didn't see all of that. Now, I did still see that because I grew up in the south of the United States. I saw that just cultural version of, you know, patriarchy, white supremacy, all those kinds of things. Like it was just part of our culture. But yeah, seeing now, like, the House of Representatives, like just different people that are that have so much power, so much power, that a long time ago, long time ago, I would have thought, okay, these people are just crazy people that go to my parents to my cousin's church, my parents church, and now it's like, no, these are their children, or these are those same people. And they have power and money and in very, very, they can harm entire groups of people. And it's yeah, it's scary. And like you said, it's a product of those generations. Many generations. It

Beth  37:01  
is. Yeah, I mean, they found out that if they played the long game, it was gonna pay off some day. And that's this is this is what's happened. It was the long them playing the long game, and hanging in there and digging in and and indoctrinating their children and the next generation indoctrinating their children.

I wanted to mention a couple of quotes that I really love. One of them is from the late David, Boeing. Religion is for people who fear hell, spirituality is for people who've already been there.

Arline  37:44  
Oh, that's interesting. I like that. I have mixed emotions about the word spirituality, but I can see what he's saying. Yeah,

Beth  37:52  
yeah. Yeah. I find it. I mean, that was very resonant. For me. It was something I read online, and I went, wow. And then I know that you and I both. I know you love Mary Oliver. Yes. As do I. And of course, I do love the question. What will you do with your one wild and precious life? Because this is it. This is all we get? Yeah, it's our shot. Yeah. And I believe that and so I want to make the most of it,

Arline  38:20  
right. Yes. So yeah, so what does spirituality look for look like for you? Like, what does that look for? For you?

Beth  38:28  
For me, it looks like loving kindness. It looks like being open and listening to others and just sitting with being holding space for people to hear their stories. I love it. Yeah, I and, you know, I mean, I I delved a little bit. I mean, I'm, I'm a little hippie dippie. You know, yeah, she's got white sage, she burned some times and crystals that I just love looking at and holding in my hand. Yeah, I don't really think they have powers, but they are of the earth and we are of the earth. So

Arline  39:05  
who knows, it's all connected. We're all connected in some kind of, it doesn't have to be supernatural way. But like, I don't know how to, I don't know, science well enough to articulate things like that. But it's like, if, if bad things happen to the insects, us way up here thinking we're above all the rest of the animals will be affected. Like if stuff happens to the soil and stuff happen. I mean, we're just, we're so much more connected than we realize. And you have scientists who make it sound very intellectual. And that's awesome. Please be intellectual. And then you have people that that are called, like, woowoo. But it's like, I don't want to say they're saying the same things. Because you're not saying the same things. And at the same time, we're still all interconnected. And like, I don't know, I don't know. I can't articulate it very well. But, but I understand what you're saying. Yeah, we

Beth  39:56  
came from the earth and we're going back to it nobody just getting out of here alive. That just that yeah, that is that is just a fact. And so, you know, I've obviously got more runway behind me than I have ahead of me. So I want to make the most of, of all that is ahead of me. And, and I'm just very grateful to be you know where I am at this point on my journey. Yeah, it's been an interesting one. Yeah. So thank you so much. Yes.

Arline  40:30  
Thank you for being willing to tell your story. I have a couple more questions. You mentioned hiking and walking and being able to nature how what any other things that just bring all and wonder and those kinds of experiences for you?

Beth  40:46  
Well, I absolutely love reading. And I love documentaries, you know? Oh, yes. Yes. It's really kind of a weird spectrum with me, because I like for example, I can really get into true crime. But then I can switch over to stand up comedy and enjoy it. I can't I love it very, very much as it is. Well, it's well, and also to it's all storytelling, right? Yeah, yeah. We're storytelling, meaning making people. That's what humans are. Yeah. And so I do love that too. I really, you know, I've always enjoyed music very, very much is what my degree was in years and years ago, you know, back in the day, but yeah, I mean, I'm just really well, I can tell you some authors, I'm kind of taken

Arline  41:37  
by but I was gonna ask, do you have recommendations, podcasts, books, music, anything that was valuable to you while you're deconstructing or? Yeah, that you just want to share? I'm here for any recommendations.

Beth  41:48  
Yeah, it was some of the podcasts that I'm really into right now or we can do hard things which is Conan Doyle's with her wife Abby and her sister Amanda. In fact, she had Nadia bolts Webber on

Arline  42:00  
today. I haven't

Beth  42:01  
listened to the episode. Is that to get up stone such good episode, and I love one called indoctrination, because it's by a psychologist named Rachel Bernstein. So she has most most of her guests have been in cults of sorts. But she also has included a lot of evangelical Christians in store. She even had Marlene when Nell from leaving the fold, you know, on there, and marlenas book was very helpful to me. Then there's one called trust me, which is also about being in cults. And the two hosts of that one of them was raised in an evangelical group. And then there's one called a little bit culty. Yes.

Arline  42:40  
Is that Amanda monto? No, that's,

Beth  42:43  
that's Sarah Edmonds and Nikki Russell who were in Nexium. Okay, they live in Atlanta. Oh, okay. Yeah, and then straight white American Jesus. They just do such a good job with that weekly roundup of connecting the dots back to evangelical Christianity with all the all the things happening in the world. I find that really interesting. So a loved one and Doyle and untamed in particular, I I've read all her books, okay. In fact, the first one I read was when she was still a Christian.

Arline  43:19  
Oh, it's some love book. I felt like she had a book about love whenever she was where

Beth  43:23  
she had one about, about marriage. Yeah, about marriage. And then that was just for her marriage ballparks. Right?

Arline  43:29  
I've only read untamed I, I have confession. I don't love memoirs. Like I like podcasts where someone's telling their story, but I don't want to read 500 pages of their story. But somehow I read untamed and I loved it. I was like, this. Yes. It was spoke to me. I guess that's the phrase people use.

Beth  43:49  
Yeah. Oh, but it really I mean, it's so affirming. Yes. So women. Yes. Yeah. So that really? I mean, that's kind of how I was born was untamed, I guess, in anything by Annie Lamott. Anne Lamott, girl,

Arline  44:03  
oh, she's just I've read, I've read all of her books as well. And she, yes. All things in the mind. Go ahead.

Beth  44:11  
Yeah, I mean, I reread her books. I've read every one as well. And I, I agree, read them. I mean, she's just incredible. And she lives like 30 minutes from where I live. I would love to see her someday. That's on my list.

Arline  44:24  
I know, she still goes to church, just show up at our church and be like, hey, oh,

Beth  44:28  
yeah. Yeah, that's tricky to do. Yeah. And then Nadia Bolz Weber I love her. Now her book on I think it was called shame about sex. It's really, really good. Big. Yeah, because she really wrote it for those raised in purity culture. And even though nobody called it purity culture. When I was a teenager, it was still purity culture. It was this. There was a lot of taboo around sex. Yeah. You know, outside of marriage, for sure. And then a Jamie Lee Finch wrote a book called you are your own. And that was really a helpful book for me too. Super, super encouraging. And I really, she used to have a podcast that I listened to, I don't think her podcast is still going on. But those were all things. I mean, there's a lot, but I did try to curate down a few to share, thank you for sharing, but I just appreciate so much, you know, the format of this podcast, and, you know, the the spirit that it is done in because it's not about us and them.

Arline  45:40  
No, it's just people's stories. It's about

Beth  45:43  
stories. So that's the best. And I really, really love that. So I really appreciate the opportunity. I feel very honored. So thank you.

Arline  45:53  
I'm honored that you one of the most beautiful things about doing podcasts like this is people honor you with their stories like, and so thank you for doing this. Thank you for being willing to tell your story. And I know, people will relate to it. And you'll find information in the deconversion anonymous Facebook group because people already know you're gonna be like, yay. So yeah, thank you so much, Beth, for telling your story. Yeah,

Beth  46:17  
thank you, Arline. I really appreciate it.

Arline  46:25  
My final thoughts on the episode. I love hearing people's stories that span multiple decades, like people who've, I don't know, it just shows no matter how long you've lived. What you've been convinced is true. For however long like things can change. People can stay open to changing when there's new information. Beth tried for years and years and years to make the God thing work. And it didn't work. She did all the right things. She said all the right prayers. She participated in the right activities. She was super conservative. She was super liberal. And just all the cognitive dissonance little thing after a little thing like she said death by 1000 cuts. Over time you just realized like it doesn't work. And she was willing to be okay with that and deal with whatever grief or sadness or loss of community that came out of that. And now she's in a place where she knows her own thoughts. She knows her own desires, hopes, dreams. She's living in embodied life. She has her Sunday's free like there's just so much freedom. So much joy and happiness that she's been able to find without religion without God. And her spirituality is good for her. And it's good for others. Loving Kindness, inner connectedness and holding space for people to exist without judgment. Like those are all good things. Oh, good things to bear. Thank you again for being on the podcast. I really appreciate your your authenticity, and your willingness to like, just tell so much of your story. I appreciate it.

David Ames  48:18  
The secular Grace Thought of the Week is pluralism. Best story reminded me and and current headlines have reinforced how much we need pluralism. Contra, what Mike Johnson current speaker of the House says the separation of church and state is both good for the church and good for the state. And whenever those two things begin to mix with one another, bad things happen. I grew up in the 80s and saw the Moral Majority begin to acquire political power. At the time, it seemed somewhat innocuous. Today I have a completely different view. The Christian nationalism that is apparent within the politics of government is dangerous and needs to be called out. pluralism is hard though, pluralism means we do accept other people's voices. But we run into the problem of the paradox of tolerance. The only thing we cannot tolerate is intolerance. Until next time, my name is David and I'm trying to be the graceful atheist. Join me and graceful human. The beat is called waves by MCI beads. If you want to get in touch with me to be a guest on the show. Email me at graceful atheist@gmail.com for blog posts, quotes, recommendations and full episode transcripts head over to graceful atheists.com This graceful eight This podcast part of the atheists United studios Podcast Network

Transcribed by https://otter.ai