This week’s guest is Kris. Kris grew up in a home with much wounding and suffering, an irreligious home that would shape her desire for God as a young adult. She became a christian when she was 22—a “poor, broken young mom.” 

For years, Christianity worked well for her. She found community, built a family, made friends. Church gave her a place to use her abilities and passions, but there was always a glass ceiling. 

In 2017, she and a friend went to a “biblical archeology” seminar. For the first time, Kris was learning from professors, not pastors, and the questions started coming. It wasn’t long before Kris realized she couldn’t go to church or be in a home group. She didn’t have the language for what was happening, but now she knows it was the beginning of her deconstruction. 

A strong leader with a kind and compassionate heart—and a love for Ozzy Osbourne—Kris is enjoying the life she’s found beyond religion. 

Quotes

“I started reading this Bible, and I didn’t have any bias. I didn’t have anybody telling me what it meant…so I could just read it as a text and take it at face value or what I thought it meant, which was great.”

“I learned that I was a Big Time People Pleaser…whatever it took to fit in, I was going to try to do that.”

“Everything began to feel really corporate in this church.” 

“I had this intense fear of pride.” 

“I had this duel belief of ‘God is this good, kind, loving god,’ and ‘But what if I piss Him off, and He’s not that nice?!’”

“I realized that my image of God was basically my senior pastor from the church I was at, and if I tried to imagine God…I would hear this guy’s voice.”

“…everything just started unraveling in my faith. I realized I couldn’t read the Bible anymore. I couldn’t listen to any Jesus music anymore…I would get uncomfortable. I would feel anxious. I didn’t understand what was happening. I didn’t ever think that this could be considered religious trauma.” 

“Coming out is hard, no matter what you’re coming out with.” 

Interact

David’s intevew on Harmonic Atheist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMKNwVRzlJk

Join the Deconversion Anonymous Facebook group!

Graceful Atheist Podcast Merch!
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Support the podcast
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Deconversion
https://gracefulatheist.com/2017/12/03/deconversion-how-to/

Secular Grace
https://gracefulatheist.com/2016/10/21/secular-grace/

Attribution

“Waves” track written and produced by Makaih Beats

David Ames  0:11  
This is the graceful atheist podcast United studios podcast. Welcome, welcome. Welcome to the graceful atheist podcast. My name is David, and I am trying to be the graceful atheists. Please consider rating and reviewing the podcast on the Apple podcast store, rate the podcast on Spotify, and subscribe to the podcast wherever you are listening. Remember, we have a merchandise store on T public to get all your graceful atheist and secular Grace themed items, you can find the link in the show notes. Recently, I was on harmonic atheists YouTube channel, I'm gonna have the link for that interview in the show notes. I'd love to have Tim on here at some point in time, but it was really wide ranging, very interesting conversation. Love for you guys to check that out. On today's show, my guest today is Chris. Chris became a mom very young. There were mental health issues in her birth family, and she experienced some mental health issues. She then had a fairly dramatic turn towards Christianity, and threw herself into it wanted to become a leader went through theological training, and started at a mega church, where the reality of women and leadership began to suppress what she was able to do. She did have opportunities to reach the least of these the people that she cared about the underdogs in her terms. But there were things she knew she could not tell her Christian colleagues and friends. Eventually she went on a trip with a focus on biblical archaeology. And she was learning things about the Bible for the first time. And that began her deconstruction process. Today, Chris experiences a lot of freedom on the other side of deconstruction. Here is Chris, to tell our story. Chris, welcome to the graceful atheist podcast. Thank you. So I was just looking at our email it took us since August to make this happen. So I'm really glad that you're here. I understand you've been a part of the Facebook group as well. So I'm excited to hear your story.

Kris  2:25  
Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, it's really been helpful being on that Facebook group. And you know, just seeing other people that have gone through similar things. And very grateful for that. Yeah, fantastic. Yeah, I guess I'll just start. You know, unlike a lot of people on the Facebook group, or some of the stories we've heard, I didn't grow up in the church. And, you know, had no, really no basis of religion. My family didn't do anything. I think the only time I was ever in a church was when my mom got married when I was 10. And so, didn't really know much. But for some reason, as a kid, I was always drawn to like, like, I played a little toy organ. And it had somebody gave me a like a book with hymns in it. And I loved playing the hymns. And, you know, there were things like that, that I was drawn to. So I really didn't become a Christian until 1993. I was 22. And kind of want to talk about that. But I have to give a little bit of history. Sure. So when I was when I was a kid, I was my mom was a single mom. And we were poor. We lived in West Texas, and I live in Oregon now. But when I was 11, my mom took her life and I got bounced around from family member to family member and I ended up with my grandmother, who I lived with till I was 16 and moved out with my boyfriend then. So that's kind of a little brief. Background while I'm

David Ames  4:07  
very sorry, it's been very difficult.

Kris  4:09  
Thank you. I appreciate that. It was and my family. We dysfunctional family. You know, we didn't talk about it. Being an only child, it was very lonely. My mom was kind of neglectful of me. You know, I don't think anybody knew if she was depressed or had bipolar or anything like that, you know, this was the this was 81 When she died, but you know, and our family wouldn't have talked about in any way you know, we just a lot of alcoholism and you know, later found out mental health struggles and so whenever my mom died, I you know, as a teenager, I was 11 and then you know, living in I moved to this new mexico town with my grandmother, but you know, I didn't know how to deal with anything, and didn't really have any help. I think my grandmother tried to take me to counseling one time, and that was the only time I went, and, and she never really wanted to talk about it, you know, she had lost her child and probably didn't know how to grieve that as well. So so there was just no healthy outlets there. And so when I was about 14, I just started acting out, you know, partying, and, you know, sleeping around, doing all the things, and moved out at 16. And, you know, still graduated high school with honors, and, you know, started college and you know, tried to do the things. But I ended up getting pregnant. And so, my first year of college, and I ended up marrying, the guy that I'd moved out with, you know, had a baby quit college, all these things ended up just being this, this very poor, broken, single mom, and I didn't really want to be a mom. So anyway, all that that was, you know, I got a job and just ended up divorcing the guy after 11 months, but you know, had the baby and all that.

So 1993 rolls around, you know, I'd been, I had a three year old, I'd been, you know, partying for a long time, I'd been just, you know, doing all the kind of same stuff my mom had done, you know, leaving my child at random babysitters, and just, I was pretty miserable. I was very depressed, and I didn't want to live anymore. And so I just, you know, decided to take my kid to my daughter to daycare, and then come home and just, you know, take all the stuff I had, and, and end it all. Oh, wow. And. And, as I was contemplating that, I looked up on the wall and saw a picture of me and her and just, I guess, heard this voice in my mind saying, you know, do you want her to grow up to be like you. And that was a really pivotal moment for me. And, you know, at that time, it was a God moment I attributed to. And that's what kind of changed my life and toward, towards spirituality toward faith. And so, I decided not to take my life that day, which was great. And I started going to, I started well, I actually I pulled out a Bible and started reading a Bible. You know, that I'd gotten, I think, when I was in junior high, my grandmother took me to some youth groups, you know, and dropped me off hoping that would help me not be a messed up, kid. And so fix them. Yeah. And it actually was a good experience. You know, it was, you know, I met some other kids. And, you know, it just, it was a good experience for me, and, but I still had a Bible that they had given me that I never opened. And so I started reading this Bible. And, you know, I didn't, I didn't have any bias. I didn't have anybody telling me what it meant, or anything like that. So I could just read it as a text and take it for face value are what I thought it meant, which was great. I'd like to be able to go back and do that again. Just just, you know, like, reading any book. But no. So anyway, that's kind of where I started. And, you know, I started trying to find churches to go to and just because the words in the Bible, I think, I didn't know, you know, I didn't understand, you know, people would always say, Jesus died for your sins. I was like, I know what that means. You know, and, and for some reason is, I started thinking about that. And didn't understand the whole sin thing. But I knew that I was, I was feeling like something in this God thing cared about me. And that's what I needed most of all in my life, because I had, you know, just, I had abandonment issues. I'd been neglected I, you know, was seeking love and all the wrong places. And you know, so it's like, oh, wow, if, if, if I could be loved that would fix everything. And so, so yeah, so that was what I did. And like, six months after that, I answered an ad in the newspaper back in the olden days before online dating. And I met this super guy, and he was a new Christian. And so we kind of started our lives together, and we've been married 27 years now. But it was, you know, it was it was kind of how we started out and we lived in at that time, we lived in Lubbock, Texas. West Texas bible belt, you know, every if everybody's a Christian pretty much, or at least it feels that way. But we ended up moving two hours north to Amarillo, which is same thing, you know. And so we were looking for a church and we tried a couple places. And we went to this one church and went there for a little while, and we wanted to get involved, you know, we just wanted to, you know, we didn't know anybody, we needed to get involved, and we liked kids. So there's they said, Okay, well, we'll do an interview to see if you could, you know, help with the youth or help something. And one of the questions, they had us fill out this questionnaire, and one of the questions was, how many people have you led to Christ? And we were like, I guess? You know, that's not something we really think about much, you know, and that, for some reason, I felt so guilty. I was like, Oh, I haven't done this thing. This, I should be doing this. This is something I should be doing for God. And I think part of it was because the interview with the guy was like, you know, if you're not doing that, are you really a Christian? You know, that kind of thing. Right? We didn't end up getting involved at that church, we're gonna be going to a different church that didn't quizzes so much about, you know, how we did all that. But we did get involved in and, you know, we taught, you know, Sunday school and stuff like that. And my husband is, he's just this playful, wonderful guy that, you know, I would be like, Okay, I want to sit down and read you this Bible story. And he's like, I got a cool game. Let's do that. And so, you know, he was popular. And I was like, alright, you know, maybe I should try. We're adults. So I did. Yeah. So yeah, so I started just getting involved and went through kind of a program. That was like a lay ministry program. And it was really great. I learned a lot about myself learn some counseling skills, even though that's not what it was. And, and, you know, learned how to be a little bit more assertive, a little less passive aggressive, but also learned that I was a big time people pleaser, and no surprise, I mean, you know, I just, all my life just wanted somebody to, you know, just to love me and to accept me, I think, as I was. And I think even though I thought God did, I still was like, not sure, like, I probably need to be a certain way, you know, for anybody to like me, I found that I was the kind of person that would just kind of blend in, do whatever was expected in that circle, whether it was with friends, or any social environmental work, or church, whatever it took to fit in, I was going to try to do that. But I was just really like, you know, I just addict, this Christianity stuff. And, you know, want to commit my life to it. And so that church, they advertise that they were going to partner with Dallas Christian college to get, you know, if people wanted to go there and get a degree in ministry, and I was like, Oh, yes, that's exactly what I want to do. And so by that time, I had another child, two girls, nine years apart, and, but they had it set up where it was a program that, you know, it's like a two year program. And you know, it's our first online program. So you're gonna go to eight week class, and then another eight week class, another eight week class. And so it was lined out where you had to do it a certain way to graduate in this program, and I didn't have enough credits. So I started, I started the program, but also had to take, like some online classes or some, whatever you call it, when they send you the books. Anyway, I don't know how to take some correspondence classes, and also was attending class at our local community college. So I was taking tons of hours of school, I was working full time had this little kid, you know, husband, who was great with kids, thankfully, and really supportive. And so, you know, I was working my ass off. Because I wanted this degree so bad. And, I mean, I remember there was one term one semester when I took 21 hours, and I was so depressed and so apathetic and so depleted, you know, and never thought twice about, you know, what am I doing this for right now, but I was like, you know, I have to do this I have to push through because this is, this is going to, I think, what I thought is it would give me value and, you know, identity maybe, you know, and, and, and I was just passionate, I loved it. You know, I just, I loved to study and And to learn and just eat it up

so I ended up getting to that point. So it's like my last couple of classes, I think I started emailing the church that we'd been going to and that we'd been involved with. And I was like, got any positions open? I'd really like to work there. Yeah. So I did, yeah. Did that for, I don't know, maybe about six months. Finally. They called and they said, we do have a position open for an assistant. And would you like an interview? I'm like, Yeah, sure. And that was fine. You know, I didn't want to be an assistant. I wanted to be in like, you know, right. Big Dog School, like, you know, yeah. But, you know, I'm, like, foot in the door, saw good. And I did not understand the whole patriarchal thing. You know, and I guess I just thought, hey, you know, what, I'm a smart, strong woman. I was that strong. I was just headstrong. But, you know, had these ideals, you know, and I'm thinking, I'll get in there, they'll see how great I am. I'll be doing ministry and doesn't work that way. Although it worked out. But um, so I got the job. And I was excited. And you know, it was really fun. And it was, it was a church, it was a nondenominational church. And in Texas, there's a lot of those and some of them are, you know, like, holy, rollin, and some aren't, and some are kind of in the middle, and we were some than in the middle. But the year that I started working, there was in 2003. And then in 2005, we got a new pastor, new senior pastor, a man of Big Vision. Okay, and so our church was we had about like, maybe 1800 people, members, and sidenote, church membership annoys the hell out of me stupidest thing ever. You know? What, you have to be a member who is so special now I'm expected to type.

David Ames  17:08  
That's exactly what it is. It is it's expected.

Kris  17:12  
Yeah, that's like, okay, and I didn't like it back then. Never liked it when I worked there. But what do you get to do? So anyway, so this, this guy that comes in our church had bought some land out, like in the southwest of town that we were going to eventually move to when we had the money. And because we were really landlocked where we were. And when, when he came in, that became his primary focus, you know, we're gonna build the church out there, it's going to be huge. You know, we're going to be growing, growing, growing, we're going to change all kinds of things. And it was scary. It was exciting. A lot of people left the church because they were not comfortable with that kind of change. And totally understandable. There was another church similar to ours, so they went there, you know, and, but we also, as we built and started sending out flyers and rebranding, and all that, you know, got a whole bunch of new people coming in. And, and it was a neat place. It was huge. It was beautiful. He started hiring more people. And the idea was that everything would be done with excellence. Everything was about how good it looked. And how I don't know. Perfect. It was right. Right. Yeah. And it, you know, at the time, I was like, That's really nice. I mean, that's, that's really pretty. And, you know, I'm glad that you know, it's not junky and cluttered, because I like things organized, but at the same time, you know, we started to have our own communications team where we couldn't create our own fliers or signs for the door, things like that, because, you know, no, clipart Yeah, I get that. But, and that was fine. But there was he had this vision and he had a brand in mind. And he was he was a guy with the his father was a business owner, he grew up rich, he grew up with a business mindset. Which, fine, whatever, that's great. But everything started to feel really corporate. Yeah, in in this church, and like, everything had to grow everything had to it was all about image, you know, and there's some churches that are like that, I think. You know, there's a humility in some of them. And this one, there wasn't, although I defended him and the church, you know, to everybody who came down on it. I'm like, no, there. He is humble. He just wants more for Jesus. You know, And, you know, I was bought in. There was one time when we had a staff meeting, when we first moved down into that building. And he gave us a while he was always preaching at us, and he also bragged about how he talked a lot. And he does, he did talk nonstop. And he, he would talk to us about things, and he was very good at compelling you, you know, a very convincing person and saying, you know, if you're not 100%, bought into our vision, and our mindset and our plan, I want you to quit today. And, you know, we'll support you for the next month trying to find another job. But if you're not bought in, you need to leave. Which, in some ways is great, you know, because then, you know, you get everybody who's on board, everybody's on the same page, we're like, rah, rah, you know, but also, at the same time, you're kind of creating clones in a way. And, you know, there's no thinking for yourself, or having that creative, you know, thought process of your own. And I didn't understand that at the time, you know, and so I was like, Yes, I'm bought in, you know, go, go go, of course, I'm doing the thing I always did just blend in fit in, you know, be the be the same as everyone else. So that, you know, everybody likes you and things work out,

David Ames  21:24  
which is perfectly normal, by the way. Yeah. I talk a lot about that. I think beliefs are tied to community. And that was an explicit call to that, you know, if you want to be a part of this, you have to be 100%. And or you need to leave now, it's not always explicit like that. Sometimes it's much more implicit. But, you know, if I don't uphold these particular beliefs, or these standards, or these behaviors, then I'm no longer part of that community and riots really threaten.

Kris  21:50  
Yeah, exactly. And maybe the words don't sound threatening, but it feels that way. Now these obviously, we're, you know, hey, if you're not bought in, you know, you need to quit, because pretty much will probably fire you. But we we were also told not around that same time. You know, we don't put up with gossip, you know, it's wrong, it's sinful. And he didn't define gossip. You know, a lot of people have different definitions, but he's like, if you get caught gossiping, you're gonna be fired.

So that started this fearful mentality of not being able to vent to your co worker or to question something, you know, you got it was like, you couldn't talk basically about things without having to have your church face on. And, you know, be like, Well, praise God, everything's great. You know, and which that really wasn't true. But that's, that's how it felt like, you know, suddenly, I'm not allowed to think to speak out loud of some things that I might be thinking about that can be contradictory to anything. So kept it inside. And, sidenote, I did have to keep things inside because, you know, we're southwest Texas. This is a mega church, by this time. Everybody, and I'm saying everybody, and I know that's a big word, but it's pretty much true is conservative, and, you know, doesn't approve of many things. And so I was a Democrat, couldn't tell anybody. Some things came out later that, you know, definitely couldn't tell anybody but you know, I want to, by the time I left the church, it was there was a staff of 100. And there were three Democrats on staff and we knew it, the three of us we didn't tell anybody because we knew we would get backlash, a lot of guys with guns and not shy about telling everybody that they bring them to church every every Sunday, you know, and that kind of thing, even talking about it openly on staff. But there was a time when I was just happily doing my job and walk into the break room and senior pastor, I keep keep debating fresh, his name. Senior Pastor walks in behind me, we're the only people in there and he says, So I hear you're a Democrat. And my editor inside self was like, oh shit. I mean, you know, what do I say? And, um, you know, my stomach's clenching, and I'm getting a nervous and I'm like, and he goes, Well, I tend to, you know, I'm an independent, you know, and blah, blah, blah. He's like, but you know, I'm just curious. And I knew the question was coming, why are you a Democrat? You know, and, and I'd, you know, kind of him hot and I'm like, Well, you know, human rights, things like that, you know, care about people kind of don't, don't want to go the other direction because it's Usually not caring about people. And but I was nervous, you know, this guy's so above me and influential and I loved my job and yeah, he's like, Okay, well, I was just wondering and you know, it never, it didn't occur to me to think about why is he asking me, you know, what does he care? What's he afraid of? You know, I mean, but that's just how the culture in Texas is, you know, or at least, you know, that area of Texas for sure that it is so far fetched for anybody to be Christian and Democrat, they just the two don't go together.

David Ames  25:34  
And that's a heavy power imbalance there wasn't, you know, it wasn't actually threatening your job or something. There's an implied threat. Exactly. Yeah.

Kris  25:43  
Yeah. And, and I wasn't sure what direction that could go, you know, and so, I was, I was nervous, I was uncomfortable. And it's something that now I'm like, I don't have to defend myself to you, I can believe anything I want, you know, and you can believe what you want to, and that's fine. We can just go about our business. But at the time, I was, Oh, I was just easily intimidated. But eventually, prior to that, you know, I'd been working at that church for quite a while. And they finally said, you know, we're going to take three of our assistants that have really been, you know, instrumental in ministry, and we're going to basically give us a promotion. And so I'm like, Yeah, finally, get to be, you know, an ordained pastor or whatever. Now, they just called us associates. And they told us, we couldn't be ordained because we weren't men. But we could be licensed because we're women. And we couldn't be pastors, because we weren't men, but we could be ministers. Not sure what the difference is something they made happen, wrote into some bylaws and did some things, but it made me feel good. And, you know, they, you know, basically, we ended up being able to file clergy taxes. So we're, we're filing the same tax status, we're doing the same jobs. You know, we're not getting paid the same. We're not getting the same respect or recognition. I did get an office, but I later had to give up that office because they hired a man, pastor that needed an office. So you know, wow, go back to the cubicle girl. You know, yeah, stupid, you know, and trying to, you know, I don't know, trying to do things in a cubicle when you're trying to pay attention, and you're writing, you know, teaching and stuff. Like, that's hard. But

David Ames  27:37  
you don't have to, you don't have to defend. Sir, it's totally absurd.

Kris  27:42  
Well, it is. And, you know, at the time, I mean, they were like, oh, Chris, you are so good. You are so kind to do that, you know, thank you for giving up your office, you know, and, and I remember even one time the pastor I had offered to help. My boss, even though I was not an assistant anymore, we didn't really have an assistant. So I'd offered to help her in some assistant roles. And he brought me up in front of the whole staff and went on and on and on. Look at this humility, look how kind she is, look at how great she is. And, you know, that was really uncomfortable. But it also during this whole period of my church life, I had this intense fear of pride. And, and I think that was built into me in from the church, from whatever scriptures are read, I don't know. But there was this intense fear that something I do is going to be considered prideful by God. And, you know, that would be really bad. And so I was always trying not to be proud of myself or, you know, be a leader, even though I'm a natural leader. I mean, I would be, like, just repress a lot of things in me. Because, you know, I don't want to be proud. I don't want to be full of myself. I don't want to be arrogant or anything like that, you know, God might do whatever God does strike me down or something which I, you know, had this, this dual belief of, you know, God as a gracious, good, kind, loving God. But also, what if I piss him off? And he's not that nice, you know? So, you know, it's like, there's this idea of grace that we would preach about, but I don't know. It never really made sense to say that God is love, but if you do something wrong, they send you to hell and you know, or not really, if you do something wrong, if you don't, you know, follow his son and you're going to hell and these two things don't jive. But you know, at the time, I was very fearful and you know, you can You can always find a way to explain things to yourself. That makes sense.

David Ames  30:03  
Absolutely. Yeah. Well, with hindsight, it's it's super pain it is. And

Kris  30:08  
it's kind of like you were saying about community being, you know, what you're around is what you believe in. And so if you don't have anything around you to challenge those beliefs, then sometimes you just stay that way, and you're happy, and you're just trucking along. And I think that's, you know, that's the big thing about what did challenge my beliefs was that we ended up moving

some of the things that really, I had a hard time with, that kind of just go along again, with this idea of controlling what we believe and what we think, what we say how we act? Well, two things, one of the things was when the new pastor came, he immediately told us, we are no longer going to say these words, we're going to say these words. So no longer do we have a stage, we had a platform, we didn't have a church bulletin, it was a program. You didn't have a sanctuary, it was the auditorium. A minister was now a pastor. People walking in the front door were guests and it very, very strict. These are the things we say. And we don't deviate from that. Because we need to all look like we're on the same page, we're all together a consistency. We also had to had very strict rules, which I guess some churches do, most churches do, but about the opposite sex, we couldn't be alone in a room with the opposite sex, we couldn't be alone in a car with a member of the opposite sex. If you're going to hug somebody, you can do a side hug nothing else, you know, didn't want anybody to get the impression that you, you know, could be doing something immoral or wrong. And that was so ingrained in me that even now, I haven't worked there and nine years, 10 years, almost 10 Even now, if I go to give a guy a hug, I feel uncomfortable, you know, coming in farther than a side hug, you know, or being alone in a car with a guy. And, you know, my husband trusts me, I trust me. I mean, you know, and I have male friends. So but it's still like this ingrained thing that and that was the thing about this guy, he was just so good at convincing you of stuff, you know, and I was easily swayed. Just it's it's like a, you know, an a narcissistic relationship with someone who's, you know, but I wouldn't. He's not clinically narcissist. But it'd be fun to call him that. But anyway, he's not.

David Ames  32:48  
I think it was just safe to say that he's very charismatic and a leader in the sense of potentially manipulating people around him.

Kris  32:56  
Yes, I'm used to getting his way. And yeah, exactly. Yeah, he very much wanted our church to be one of the biggies, you know. And there were there were certain people that he would follow that we would go to their, whatever big conferences they'd have, and stuff like that. And he would, you know, imitate our church to look like theirs. We also we expanded our campuses. And so Supposedly, the small churches in small towns would come to us for advice. It started in our own town, but then it branched out to small towns around us, and come to us for advice or come to him for advice. And he would tell them how to make their church, you know, get more people and stuff like that. But it would get to the point where we would take over their church, and they would have to brand everything exactly like us had to look exactly the same have the same fonts and all the things and we would he would preach on the weekend and it would be by video in their church. So it's like, okay, if you want to, if you want your church to get help from our church, you better be ready pastor not to be preaching anymore. Because, yeah, hope that's not your passion. So it was we did that with, I don't know, seven or eight other churches. I didn't like it. I didn't like it at the time. But one of the things that got to me about it was so our church was in an affluent part of town and I was never that way but it that's just kind of, we catered to the rich. I remember having a conversation with one of the pastors one time had been there a long time. And when I first started working there, he's like, he's like, Well, what do you feel like God, you know, calls you Who do you feel like God calls you to minister to and I'm like, the underdog. I'm always about the underdog, the defenseless the helpless, the homeless, you know, the Poor. And he's like, you know, I'm called to preach to the rich. And I'm like, oh, okay, let's go. Just, I mean, just yet loud. That's fine. I mean, I guess rich people needed Jesus too. But anyway, but that's how it felt at this church for so long. And we finally ended up getting this campus in the northeast side of town, which was a very poor part of town. And there was a lot of refugees and immigrants. And this campus, when I heard about it, I was like, I want to go work there. I still want to be a part of that, you know, because that was where my heart was. And they're like, no, no, you need to stay here. You're doing things. I'm like, all right. But none of our campuses, except that one ever really did anything for like, you know, the helpless and the homeless and the helpless in the filming. Just, you know, it was weird, and, you know,

David Ames  35:53  
people Jesus talks about, yes,

Kris  35:56  
exactly. You know, and so, had I been really pushed to keep the status quo, then that would have been hard, but I think I was lucky. And because I think they knew that I wasn't like everybody else at our campus. So I got to, you know, I had opportunities to do great things. And I was really grateful at the time because I got to start up, suicide Grief Support System, started as a group, and it became a whole thing where we were, you know, helping a lot of communities across, like about a 200 mile span, and that, that I kept doing after I left the church, and that was really a passion of mine, but also got to, like, they let me use the bus barn, you know, an old kind of warehouse thing that we had, and, and I got some people to donate clothing and furniture, and all this, and I worked with Catholic Charities in town to furnish apartments for refugees. And so just got a bunch of buddies, that church, and we'd go do that on the weekends, and it was just a great thing. And then I also got to work in recovery and oversee our, you know, Celebrate Recovery. And so at least I had the opportunity to be with the people that I wanted to be with, you know, the, you know, people that are just stopped on the street, you know, and it was, I'm very grateful for those years.

David Ames  37:29  
You know, I think it's important to say, as well, that people like yourself, who you genuinely care about people, the church is your opportunity to actually, you know, help people. Yeah, and it gives you a platform to do that. Right. You know, I'm sure there's rest of the story, and it's too bad there is but like, your natural desire to care for people is good. And, you know, I'm glad to hear that you had opportunities to actually execute on that.

Kris  37:56  
Yeah, and I think you're right, you know, and I think a lot of people I've known, you know, that's, that's part of what they've loved about going to church is having the opportunity to do good for others, you know, get involved in whatever way and, and, you know, when we moved here, we started going to a church that was very community oriented, they cared a lot about the homeless, and you know, they didn't spend money on carpet. They, you know, their building was old and running down, but they spent all their money on like the community and what they could do to help other people and I was really a nice change. I loved it, you know.

One last thing about the, that church and the senior pastor was that everything was trendy, you know, name brand, everything, spend lots of money on things, you know, and then all the people I worked with, it felt like all the guys they had to dress just like him, you know, read the same books, you know, try to impress them. Everybody on staff, it felt like we were always competing for his favor. We have to be the funniest the trendiest the coolest, you know, the wittiest the smartest, oh, I've been studying blah, blah, you know, well, I read Socrates or whatever, you know, and it was always things like that. And that was an area in which I felt so insecure. Because, you know, I'm smart, I'm funny, I'm all those things, but I, I definitely am not trendy. I can name drop brands. And he's talking, you know, on Sunday morning about, oh, well, you know, get your call Hans and your blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, I don't even know what you're saying. But that was just a common thing. And it was all always about image and always about impressing him, you know, and, and so, I lived with this For years, and this will come into play in a minute when want to talk about why I had to start deconstructing. So in 2014, we, my husband and I, we had talked about moving to Oregon before, and we thought, well, we might retire there because we love it, you know, and rural West Coast kind of people. And but our kiddo, in 2013, we went through some really tough times with our youngest child, and in 2014, or maybe 2013, they came out as gay. And, and, you know, my husband's first thing to them was you couldn't have picked a better family to be gay. And you know, and so there was never any issue with that for us. But that was another area at that time where I'm like, I can't tell anybody at church, I can't tell anybody I work with, I might lose my job, because they had already, like, they hadn't fired anybody for something like that. They had taken this, there was an instance of a young man, I knew who was working in the children's area, and they thought he was gay. Nobody knew he was gay. And they removed him from there, because they were afraid he was gay. And you know, if you're gay, you're gonna corrupt children. Right? So, you know, you gotta turn everybody gay. Yeah, exactly. And, and so gay will rub off on people. Yeah, right. You know. And so, knowing that that had happened, I'm like, I tell anybody, something's gonna happen. I can't say anything, you know, which is terrible, you know, and it's not like, I was gonna go tell anybody anyway, it's, you know, my kids pleased to come out. But you know, worrying, okay, now who's going to find out? What are they going to do? You know, things like that. And, and at the same time, getting all these, this preaching about homosexuality, getting taught to and a huge staff meeting about homosexuality and how we've got to, you know, what can we do to fight this beast or whatever it is. And, you know, so I'm getting all this all the same time, and it was really hard to. I felt like, like, while I loved and accepted my kid and had no problem with it, I felt terrible on the inside, because I'm like, I am not pleasing God, you know. So there was that whole thing, but But in 2014, we decided to move to Oregon. And my kid was in my oldest had already graduated, moved away. And graduated college, and my youngest was a junior in high school. And at that time, Sam was female. He's, he's trans. And so he's since you know, transitioned. And so and we didn't, we didn't really know everything, but he was we were like, you know, we'll stay here until you graduate, whatever you need to do. He's like, You know what, let's just go. Let's just see what it has has to offer, you know, we're not going to know if we like it till we get there. And like, wow, genius kid, let's do that. You know, and so we did. And that's when he came out to us once we moved here that he was trans. And so we were like, Okay, this is new. And at the time, he used the pronouns, I'd never heard that before. And, you know, it's like, okay, you're gonna have to teach me some things because that all Yeah, that's plural. Of course, I've learned a lot since then, you know, but yeah, it felt good that we could just be open about it as a family, and we didn't have to be afraid of who might find out anything. You know, and we started going to church, we joined a home group because we hosted a small group in our house for like, seven years and loved that environment, you know, and so we joined a home group so we could get to know people and, and that was all good for the first two years. It was it was good. We had fun. It was, you know, it was what we needed at the time, and it helped us transition to a new city. I when we first moved here, I I tried to find a job as a pastor somewhere. And, you know, they just don't hire a lot of pastors in Portland. I don't know what's up with that. Not a very religious city. It isn't. But I ended up getting a job with the Department of Human Services working with people with disabilities. And, you know, and I've been there ever since. And I love it. And I'm an assistant and I'm happy and I don't care. And I just love it, you know, work with like minded people that want to do good for others, and so it's great.

After we'd lived here a couple of years, a friend of mine in Texas, who was also a Democrat, and, you know, didn't tell anybody She was a big time Bible teacher at that church, and she ended up moving to a different church. But anyway, she told me, Hey, there's going to be this biblical archaeology seminar in Minnesota. Over the summer, you want to go like, yeah, that'd be awesome. So we went, and this was 2017. And, you know, it's led by Bible dudes, you know, but they, they're, you know, professors. And so they have a little bit of different mindset. And so in this teaching, that whole week, I heard things about different Bible stories, that were also in other cultures and way prior to the Bible and all this stuff. And I was like, what? You mean, the Bible is not inerrant and perfect and original and written by God and all this stuff? It just, I mean, it just blew my mind.

David Ames  45:57  
I couldn't imagine. Yeah, I think the the bubble, like the the limitation that has been within churches, leads to people deconstructing, because then when they just they encounter even the barest of facts.

Kris  46:12  
It's like, there's, there's something out there. That's not what we're being taught. And maybe I knew it prior to being a Christian, but it didn't matter, then, you know, and it was really mind blowing, and it planted a seed in my brain. And my friends said, okay, so no one that said, Change your faith. I'm like, no, no, I'm still hardcore Christian, you know, blah, blah, blah. And, but we got back, or I got back home and, and I was fine. I was going to my home group going to church for about three months or four months. And then one day, suddenly, I just couldn't do it anymore. I told my husband, and this is how I felt at the time that I realized that my image of God was basically my senior pastor from the church I was at. And if I tried to imagine God, or anything, I would hear this guy's voice. I couldn't read the Bible without hearing his sermons. You know, and so I didn't have my own concept of Christianity anymore. It was everything I'd been taught at that church. And, and that really bothered me. And so I told my husband, I don't want to go to church anymore. I don't want to go to our home group anymore. I need to like back off and figure out who God is in my own self because I'm, I'm losing, you know, touch with what I was doing. And he was kind of glad about the church thing. He never liked organized religion, but he was very patient. For many years, like decades,

David Ames  47:52  
while you were working, yeah, you

Kris  47:54  
know, but it's such a sweet man. And, you know, like, they would tell us, you know, be careful what you put on social media. And if you're, if your family posts anything, we're gonna let you know. And you're gonna have to tell them to take it down. And I mean, I'm lucky they never found stuff he posted, because he's always been very bold and outspoken. But anyway, I told him, You You be bold and outspoken. You say what you want, I don't care. But anyway, so this is that's that was in the winter of 2017 2018. Everything just started unraveling in my faith. And I realized I couldn't read the Bible anymore. I couldn't listen to any Jesus music anymore. Which is fine. I wasn't big on it. Because it all sounded like country to me and not like country. Like you know, but, but just everything just like, started, I would, I would get uncomfortable, I would feel anxious. I didn't understand what was happening. You know, I didn't ever think that this could be considered religious trauma. Because, you know, in my idea, trauma was, you know, like, some of the stuff that happened to me as a kid, it's blatant, it's, you know, super harmful and all that and, and I didn't know anybody who had like, wasn't going to church anymore, you know. So, I also had this layer of guilt of like, I'm not going to church. I'm not pleasing God. And then I had a person call me from Texas that I don't know how they found out, but they call me crying and like, I just heard that your son is gay and yell or go into hell, and I'm just so sad for you like, Oh my God. Yeah, so I had a couple of those kinds of conversations with people that I had to block out of my life. You know, things like that. Were just, it was a really tough time because all of my identity was wrapped up in being a Christian. You know, I didn't know anything else. And I also you know, the deep feelings of guilt around not pleasing God were just huge, but at the same time, there was just, I could not open that Bible, I could not do any of those things. You know, I had always listened to podcasts and this and that and couldn't do any of that. And, and the only person I knew to talk about it was my husband, because, you know, he was sweet, very understanding, always been very supportive, no matter what I'm thinking, and, but there was no one I could talk to about it. And suddenly, I realized, I can't talk to my Christian friends, I can't talk to my non Christian friends that I have here, because they don't have any frame of reference. There's just nobody there. And so it was a really lonely couple of years, where I was starting to deconstruct and didn't know, that's what I was doing. I started going to counseling for some of my childhood traumas. And, you know, that's, I think, when I realized, Okay, I am experiencing the effects of religious trauma as well, this has to be something else I work on, because, you know, but I didn't really know how. But you know, during counseling it, it was helpful, it, you know, at least brought things to light that where I was being given unhealthy, outside stressors, indoctrination, things like that. And even though my counselor was not, she didn't know much about religious trauma, and it wasn't her expertise, she was still helpful in that. And so I just started trying to, well, basically, I was like, Okay, well, if I'm not going to go to church, I need to explore other areas of spirituality, you know, so I started, like, looking into other things. I'm like, Okay, what about Buddhism, and, you know, the, all kinds of stuff that, you know, could replace that empty God hole, you know, whatever, you know, getting into crystals, getting into energy medicine, getting into, you know, just just reading different things, you know, comparing religions, I started watching, you know, documentaries, on cults and starting to understand, you know, the, all the things they have in common and seeing where, you know, things that have been done to me. Maybe not intentionally, or whatever, but they were still really hurtful. And similar to cults, you know? Yeah.

David Ames  52:35  
You may not know, but my wife is still a believer. So every once in a while, I find myself back back in a church. And even, you know, the sweetest nicest people, you know, and I like, I like the people at her church. I can't unhear the manipulation. Yeah. Right. It just screams in my ear. And so even though I know, they have the best of intentions, and you know, they have no, no sense of the manipulation that's happening, like is just like screaming. Yeah. And, you know, you can't, you can't unlearn that or unhear it once you recognize

Kris  53:10  
Yeah, exactly. And that. That's been interesting, you know, because I see it in different areas, because, you know, I'm still really close friends with the people that were in my home group in Texas, although all of them have left the church. You know, which I find interesting. And they all did it on their own, they didn't even know I was doing it. So like, interesting.

You know, I talked about the fear of pride, and the people pleasing and things like that. Those are some of the biggest things that came out of this for me was, you know, who am I without the church? Who am I without my Christian identity? And if I, and I'll be honest, I don't, I don't really know what I believe, you know, I think I might still believe in some sort of God. I don't know. I mean, I'm not atheist, I'm agnostic. But, you know, as I started to realize that, okay, I've decided I'm not following these rules, any more than what, what direction am I following? You know, what defines who I am? You know, and, of course, that's a big rabbit hole to go down. But, you know, I started realizing that I had suppressed so much of myself, or suppressed so much of myself that I don't really know who I am or what I believe, and I'm still trying to figure those things out. And I'm sure I'll do that the rest of my life. But, you know, I had always tried to suppress this strong woman leader tendency that I had, you know, because I wanted to be the perfect Christian wife, even though my husband was all about, you know, we're eek Well, and all that, I'll be like, well, but you're gonna get the final say on everything and I'm going to cook you dinner and I'm going to be subservient, blah, blah, blah, you know, and we laugh about it now. I try to be a control freak now and just be like, no. But I love it. You know, it's, it's so much easier than it used to be. But now it's like I've realized, you know, I can be proud of myself. Like I learned, I taught myself how to paint like landscapes when I was still a Christian, and it was 2013 when we were going through tough times with my kid. And it was something that brought me peace, and but, you know, people would say, Oh, that's really good. I'm like, Oh, well, you know, it's God, you know, bah, bah, you know, that kind of thing, you know, could never accept any compliments, you know, and now I'm like, Yeah, I'm pretty good painter. That's fun. I like it, you know, go Chris, you know, or whatever it is, you know, and being able to accept myself, you know, I never was able to accept me as me, I thought, you know, I had to be somebody else, just to make everybody happy. You know, and I'm learning that I can just make myself happy. And it's fine. You know, and learning what it takes to make myself happy. You know, that's been the last few years of being okay, with the way I look, the way I feel the things that think, you know, one of the really great things about not ascribing to the religion I was involved with was that when I first became a Christian, I threw away all of my hard rock CDs, because I thought that was probably pretty bad. But now I'm like, Hey, I forgot how much I like Ozzy?

David Ames  56:50  
Yeah, just fun. You know, that is that's the best transition, which we should just make drop right there.

Kris  56:58  
Makes me laugh, you know, the things that, you know, you think you you need to sacrifice for God or for whatever it is, and I don't feel like I'm, I don't know, I don't even know how to express this, like, I'm the same person. You know, I've just, you know, stopped listening to rock for a long time, but it doesn't matter. I can listen to what I want. You know, it shouldn't be so mind blowing. But it is a profound moment.

David Ames  57:31  
Yeah, I totally get it. And, you know, I think what you said earlier was really important as well, that, you know, you can't talk about it with your Christian friends, and you really can't talk about it with your secular friends, either, because they're not going to get it. I think that's why the deconstruction community is so important. It is we get it,

Kris  57:50  
it is, and that is part that has really been a huge help for me, you know, just reading other people's posts. And, you know, I think I went to an online support group, but just, you know, being around people who are have experienced the same thing in their own way, you know, regardless of what type of religion it was, or whatever, but just knowing that we've we've all got some really common themes. And I mean, it's just like any of the support groups I used to teach, you know, people would be like, Oh, thank you so much. This is greatest thing. I'm like, you know, really, it's that you came together with other people that were like you and realize that you're not alone. You know, and you don't have to do this alone. And I think, for me, that's been, you know, very important. You know, and I see that in other people's posts, too, that, you know, we're, we're in this together, even though we're miles and miles apart, we can still support each other. And I appreciate that about, you know, this podcast and about the Facebook page that there's a lot of support, you know, you get involved in some groups are pages, and there's a lot of, you know, some negative comments, and I just haven't seen any of that everybody is like, oh, no, you can do this, or I feel for you, or whatever it is, you know, and being a part of that kind of community is really powerful and valuable.

David Ames  59:11  
Well, I have to give credit to our Lean Community Manager for that. She's She's amazing. And I do think that the community is amazing itself. So I'm glad you're a part of it.

As we wrap up, Chris, we've hinted at a few things, but do you have any recommendations for things that were helpful for you along the way, either books or podcasts or groups, anything like that?

Kris  59:39  
I think, not really. I do think that it's, if a person's really having a hard time, I think it would be wise to have you know, therapy or a support group. I'm a huge proponent of those and being able to work through it with someone and, but it's like anything, you know, come hanging out is hard, no matter what you're coming out with. And so having, you know, finding, if it's if it's this podcast or the Facebook page or another one that's similar, I think that's really important. It's just not something that's easily done alone. You know, for me, I, I want to grow as a person throughout my life, you know, I want to work on things that I struggle with and be a better person than I was yesterday. And so I don't if I, if I just sit there and try to deconstruct by myself, I'm just gonna get stuck, and I'm going to be stagnant. And so, you know. So I really highly encourage people just to, you know, find that community. There's a lot of good books out there that I've heard of, but I haven't read them yet.

David Ames  1:00:51  
Okay. Well, I appreciate that. Definitely a plus one to being a coming on part of a community whether that's our deconversion anonymous or any others, I think, I think that's it. That is the power of humans coming together to care for each other. I think that's what will get us through all this. Absolutely. Chris, thank you so much for being on the podcast.

Kris  1:01:11  
Thank you. I really appreciate you giving me this opportunity.

David Ames  1:01:19  
Final thoughts on the episode. I wish we could say that Chris's story was unusual or rare. And yet, there's just a common theme of strong leadership. Women who want to be a part of ministry wants to be a part of helping people and being limited and held down and told what they can and cannot do. This always strikes me as a tactically Bad mistake on the church's part, in that they are suppressing 50% of their population from actually participating. I really appreciated Chris's compassion and desire to help people that was real and came across in her interview so so strongly, it's just clear that she cares for people. And that is secular grace. I'm very glad to hear the freedom that Chris experiences on this side of deconstruction being out from underneath the limitations and the restrictions within Christianity, where she can love people unconditionally without reservation. I want to thank Chris for being on the podcast for telling her story with vulnerability and compassion. Thank you so much, Chris, for telling your story. Secular Grace Thought of the Week inspired by Chris is care for people. It never ceases to amaze me that the most compassionate, loving, caring people within the church are limited in how they can care for people or meet real human needs because of who they are allowed to care for and who they are not allowed to care for this side of deconstruction, deconversion those shackles are off. And you can just love people, even people who are radically different than yourself. That is secular grace. Next week, Arleen interviews Megan, you're not gonna want to miss that episode. Until then, my name is David. And I am trying to be the graceful atheist join me and be graceful human. The beat is called waves by MCI beads. If you want to get in touch with me to be a guest on the show. Email me at graceful atheist@gmail.com for blog posts, quotes, recommendations and full episode transcripts head over to graceful atheists.com. This graceful atheist podcast, a part of the atheists United studios Podcast Network

Transcribed by https://otter.ai