Arline interviews this week’s guest, Andy Neal of Andy Films And Hikes fame. He is self described as a “plus size hiking influencer.”

Andy tells his story of deconstruction, acceptance of his body and his joy in nature. He is an inspiration to all to get outdoors and experience nature.

Links

Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/andyfilmsandhikes/

Link Tree
https://linktr.ee/AndyNeal

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Deconversion
https://gracefulatheist.com/2017/12/03/deconversion-how-to/

Secular Grace
https://gracefulatheist.com/2016/10/21/secular-grace/

Attribution

“Waves” track written and produced by Makaih Beats

David Ames  0:11  
This is the graceful atheist podcast United studios Podcast Network. Welcome, welcome. Welcome to the graceful atheist podcast. My name is David and I am trying to be the graceful atheist. Please consider rating and reviewing the podcast on the Apple podcast store, rate the podcast on Spotify and subscribe to the podcast wherever you are listening. We do have our merchandise store on T public you can get all of your graceful atheist and secular Grace themed items the link will be in the show notes. If you are in the middle of doubt deconstruction of the dark night of the soul, you do not have to go through it alone. Join our private Facebook group deconversion anonymous and become a part of the community. You can find us at facebook.com/groups/deconversion Special thanks to Mike T for editing today's show. On today's show, our Lean interviews today's guest Andy Neal and Neal is a self described plus size hiking influencer. He is on Instagram. You can find him at Andy films hikes. He is an inspiration to everyone to get outdoors and experience nature. He tells his story of deconstruction, his acceptance of His body and His joy and nature. Here is our Lean interviewing Andy.

Arline  1:45  
Andy Neal, welcome to the graceful atheists podcast.

Andy Neal  1:48  
Arline, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you inviting me on the show and talk about my story.

Arline  1:53  
Yes, I'm excited. I think I've just stumbled upon you in my reels. One day, your your hiking stuff came up, and it was just fantastic. So I started following you. And then one day you just posted, maybe it was a part of the caption. I can't remember something about just leaving religion. And I was like, Wait, there's a whole other story here that I want to know. So yes, there is. Well, thank you for being here. And usually we just begin tell us the spiritual environment or religious environment you grew up in. Oh,

Andy Neal  2:24  
wow. So it's long and complicated. I grew up the the son of two disillusioned Baptist preacher kids. So Wow. Both my parents were very disillusioned by religion. They never really like. Called it also like Christmases and Easter's we were always always there. In church, always with that pressure from grandparents who needed to get the kids in church, you need to get the kids in church ended up going to a Christian school, a very, very conservative Christian School in Southern California. That also was big. And it was it was weird. It was Southern Baptists, but the Patrick pastor at the church that was attached to the school was Pentecostal. So he had a lot of Southern Baptists, very conservative things, but then they would take a whole week off of classes because there was an out feeling of the Holy Spirit. And we needed all the kids in the school to speak in tongues, crazy stuff that, you know, Department of Education ever found out, it would have been big trouble. So I grew up in that and then around age of gosh, well 1112 My mother started getting into drug use mostly pills, prescription pills and my parents divorce once California tropic services got involved, and so my dad was like, We need to get the kids back in the church, started going to church really consistently. Age 12 on we moved from Southern California to Las Vegas, where we joined a huge mega Southern Baptist, it was a megachurch, five 6000 members, you know, four or five services. And I got very, very involved in youth group there. And I was there every time the doors are opened. And during this whole time, my family was a wreck. Honestly. My mom was in and out of rehab not been able to stay sober. My parents are just divorced. My dad married someone new, we weren't getting along. And the only family I really had during this whole time was the church. For better or worse. They were there were positive adults there for me a youth group. So every time there was something I would be there every time there was a lock in or whatever I was in the church. I ended up working in the church. My senior year of high school is a janitor helping clean up after services. It's a big mega church. So it's like, oh, just clean up all the bulletins in the pews. Now this will take like two hours if you had to go down like two miles abuse, no joke. So this was a huge church. And then, you know, right out of right out of high school, I decided you know what, you know, actually during high school. Church camps are funny. I had We responded to the call to ministry. And even before that is when I had my conversion experience of something called the choir the fire, which is very problematic that conference. But then I got called in the ministry and high school church camp. And from that point is I'm gonna be a pastor, I'm gonna be a missionary. And you know, from age 16 on that's what I pursued, and right out of high school, went on a mission trip, came back home, my parents said, the parents danced up, Mom basically kicked me out the house. I was on my own, got on my feet real quick. No College, no education. Started working at a southern First Baptist Church, Las Vegas, started working there. quickly went from a youth helper to part time, paid volunteer ish to their youth pastor at age 19. With no formal theological education with kids, I'm literally pastoring who are a year younger than me. I'm only here at a high school that went back quick and often. I went from a very large Southern Baptist mega church to First Baptist Church, Las Vegas, despite people from the South first Baptist, I think huge bills is very small under 500 people. I didn't know the rules about really conservative small Southern Baptist churches. And at that point, you know, I bounced around. I did that for a while and then I bounced around different churches doing children's ministry, worship ministry, I play guitar, you know, so, which was the result of my youth group days, and really just went full fledge into full time ministry. By the time I was 23. I got licensed as a pastor. And my wife shortly after that, who's from Oregon, she moved here are moved to Las Vegas from Oregon to find a job. We met got married, she kind of later in life conversion experience at 1920 in college, and things Las Vegas at that point were very. The economy was crap is 2000 6007 We got married. And so I thought, hey, let's move to Oregon, and Oregon. And I was working at Starbucks, volunteering at churches, churches taking everything they could for me, I was writing children's ministry, I was wearing worship ministry all volunteer doing and then my life is like you need to do something with this. So I decided to go into multiple Bible College in Portland. And did that graduated with a degree of church leadership and ministry. And from there, I went into full time vocational ministry like I actually be paid full time, worked on the coast as a youth pastor for a while. And then things were there's a small Baptist Church there and things weren't going great. So I moved back to Oregon with my wife. We adopted that point, we adopted three kids from foster care to a special needs and worked at a non denominational church here in Southern Oregon. And that was, it was bad. I thought it was because I thought it'd be good because the pastor had tattoos, skinny jeans, like okay, it's a cool hip shirt. They're not there were more to the social justice stuff. I can jive with this. They have a they have a community garden in the back. And it was it was just this. I tell people it was the same theology I was dealing with before, especially with the LGBTQ community. It was just in tattoos and skinny jeans with all of us.

At that point, I remember very clearly my wife was struggling there. My wife was struggling period, she actually went on staff, as a children's director, was struggling. She has a bachelor's and master's degree in education. The pastor was actually younger than me. He was constantly threatened by me and my wife when we were just trying to work with the kids and students. The youth that had come into my youth group at that church were and that happened to my last church to all LGBT, not all but a good amount of LGBTQ students coming and feeling safe there. The elders in the church were getting back as kids weren't coming. On Sunday morning. They come the Wednesday night youth group, so they wouldn't come on Sunday mornings. And I asked a few of them, why aren't you guys coming from the mornings like we don't feel safe Sunday mornings, straight up, don't feel safe. Okay, I can I get that I get that. And there's tons of stories behind that. But yeah, eventually my wife we were at dinner at Red Robin here in Medford, Oregon. And she's like, I'm, I don't believe in God anymore. Like we will but will will, will will. What do you mean, at this point, things were really things were tough with our kids with special needs. We were being told by the church. They didn't need therapy. She prayed away, which seems to be their answer for everything from being gay to having mental health issues.

Arline  10:00  
Question. Did your wife say that? Or did you say that?

Andy Neal  10:02  
My wife said that she has I don't believe in God anymore. And I'm, you know, I'm like, I'm struggling. I wasn't I wasn't there. I don't even think I'm still. I wouldn't necessarily call myself an atheist. But it's like, I don't believe in God, I believe any of this. And I thought, Okay, our marriage is over. I can't keep doing this. And I understand. It was just like, oh, my gosh, what are we going to do? And then I was just looking around like, this isn't right. What's going on? Isn't right here. This isn't me. It's the same stuff I was dealing with at the baptist church out on the coast and Southern Baptist churches. It's just, I don't, why am I holding on to this and I, through therapy and counseling. I discovered I was holding on to it because during my very traumatic time in my formative years, that was my family. So I had a sense of loyalty there to a fault. Like, I was loyal to this organization to the church, because they had worked. They were there for me when no one else was. And so I felt I needed to do the same for the church to give the church chance, even though they had screwed me over so many times. And then within the next few months, I had started coming to the same conclusion I had talked with the leadership was like, hey, I want to start transitioning out of youth ministry. At this point, I'm doing youth ministry full time, I'm doing worship ministry full time, because they fired the the worship pastor. So I'm working 6070 hours a week for $30,000 a year. So it's, it's it was it was bad trying to trying to get, you know, things don't try to keep my family together. They weren't supportive with our kids or adopted kids. So actually, I told her what are transitioning out of youth ministry, when you start looking for another youth minister, I want to focus on the music and technology. You know, I was always the guy on staff like, hey, we need a video made Andy, can you make a video and go get camera equipment, make a video, make it funny, get the youth together, do a skit put it on screen. And eventually someone that actually in the church had said, Hey, we're starting a small production company, and he would like to work 510 hours a week for us to consult do social media. And I was starving for anything like I need. I just I can't do church stuff anymore. I'm like, Yeah, I can do that. Let's keep it on the download, though. Eventually, the church found out even though come to find out later, the guy who asked me actually asked for the permission first. And they use that as leverage against me. Like, he took another job that permission. I'm like, No, actually, I've come to find out. That permission was asked. And things were getting really bad. And I was I was trying to slowly transition out and just try to take care of my family. And then one day, they're like, oh, no, you're, you're, you're fired, basically. And here is a non if you want to if you want a severance package, here's a nondisclosure agreement. As far as you're concerned, you are leaving to pursue a career in the entertainment industry, and your six months average sufferance, and at time, it came to a shock. It was all like boom week, my wife, our lives were turned upside down. And I was like, Okay, I sign it. I, on one hand, I regret citing because I had to say something that wasn't true. They were firing me. Let's say times, like I need to provide for my family. And they're offering severance. So yeah, I'm gonna take it

and so I did, and then I started just working, you know, in the production industry as much as I could locally in Southern Oregon, which is really huge. And then decided, You know what, I'm gonna go to film school. And the day literally, the day I signed the nondisclosure agreement, I contacted Southern Oregon University, the new film program, their digital cinema, like, hey, you know, I'm 36 years old. I already have a bachelor's degree, I'd like to meet with some people there about, you know, what would it take to get a second bachelor's degree? Because I didn't really at that point, I'm realizing my Bible degrees, not going to be a whole lot of good. Even though it was accredited. It is an accredited Bachelors of Science, it was going to be a lot of good, like, okay, that's why I'm talking to counselors there. I met with the program director, because I found that I can do this in two years, just basically taking all my prerequisites and let's do everything, and went to film school and started working. Every little thing I could do in production and social media and in Ashland, Oregon, which is an amazing town. I love fashion so much. And from that point, I was taken from a very religious, Christian evangelical world. Everyone surrounding me was Christian Evangelical, to a world of Southern Oregon University to Ashland, Oregon national Oregon is home of the Oregon Shakespeare Festival, largest Repertory Theater outside of New York, on the side of the Mississippi, so that Oregon University is renowned. A liberal liberal school is constantly being recognized by advocate Magazine as one of the most LGBTQ friendly schools in the nation, and littles Ashland Oregon. So very, very conservative. Here then plopped into a film program, with all kinds of people I have no never met, you know, I've never been around before, very diverse and I'm like, I like them better, like, this is this is more, this is more me and just fell in love. And at that point my wife and I were, we're going to, we're going to therapy, we're working through things and, you know, today we're still married 17 years later I, you know, part of me this out of you know, I have so I know so many people who've left their faith and even but you know, their partner and then both at the faith but they found out how different people they really were. And they weren't there wasn't animosity or anything, they're just like, you know, we're both very conservative Christians then and we've left the faith and with different people now and they didn't stay together I don't know how we managed to work it out, but we did. And that's not for everybody. I think we were just ultimately compatible on an interpersonal level our faith and our religion isn't what brought us together. So we just were able to work things out and yeah graduated 2018 with a film degree and from Southern Oregon University have been trying to figure out different ways to tell the story of mine tell story of those who lost their faith I was working on documentary for a while did a few short documentaries about that got involved with the you know x evangelical groups for awhile on Twitter that was that that that that rebel Twitter, Dallas, toxic, but in that realm of the internet was very toxic. And just trying to find my footing until I discovered the outdoors at the at the behest of my therapist, I was literally talking with their therapist about just having existential dread and struggle and having something bigger than myself to rely on my whole life. Like it just you know, something bad was happening, like it depend on Jesus, or there's a plan or this bad things happening. It's because of sin. Like, I just feel like there's this big hole in my life. And she said, Go for a hike, go into the outdoors, we're in one of most beautiful places in the world. I didn't instantly fall in love with hiking, and it just became Wow, my thing. I just started posting about it. And started like realizing I am I'm a plus size person. I'm personally bigger body realizing, oh, you know, more serious, I got into hiking or there's not backpacks. I mean, there's not clothes, if any, oh, here's one company, Columbia Sportswear, they do it. So I just started buying their stuff and just tagging them and then eventually Columbia reaches out I have like maybe 4000 followers on Instagram. Hey, you'd love to come to do some modeling for us and other companies are reaching out and then slowly start building this platform and then I one day i i went viral. You're going for a stupid hike for my stupid mental health.

Arline  17:38  
I think that's what I saw. I think that's what I first saw of yours you

Andy Neal  17:43  
know 37 million views and I've had over a dozen more videos go viral since then. And this is what I do full time. Advocate for people to get in the outdoors for their mental health advocate for the plus size, body positive or body confidence community. And I do post often about me leaving my faith you know, I was very vocal about while I was in university I was very vocal about it and almost very bitter and mad about the church and I just found out that wasn't doing me a whole lot of good and surrounding myself with a bunch of people who were also mad and angry wasn't doing me personally a lot of good. And so I really toned back you know, my vitriol towards the church even though it's deserved I was deeply hurt and scarred by the church. But for me dwelling on that just wasn't wasn't positive. So when I stood back and got to the outdoors I discovered a new side of myself I didn't know existed

now whenever I share about you know about my about my former faith and my former career I'm very I try to be I try to be as non confrontational as possible I try to be like you know, this was my experience never tried to demonize anyone for their deeply held spiritual beliefs because you have those for whatever reason. I think issue when those deeply held spiritual beliefs turn into policy turn into actions where you say someone is less than like if you want to believe Jesus is Lord, great, great for you. But you say because of that, you have the right to legislate someone's morality or you know, say someone can't do something with their body or say these people who love each other can't get married. That's where it's like, no, no, no, no, that's not cool. And since then, what I call myself an atheist, no, but I wouldn't call myself the surly a theist or I, the outdoors for me has kind of become what my religion is what I don't even call it religion. I even like that. This what I, I find meaning and purpose. And I've talked to some people, the best way described is I'm a bit of a pantheist, you know, believe that everything is God or the divine. Some people, I've described my theology as some people that say that's very close to Druidism. And I don't like putting a label on it. And that could just be my way, my way. evolutionary sense of coping with what I've been through and dealing with things, I don't know. But that's just where I'm at. That's the very, very short version of, you know, 20 years of history there. But that's, yeah.

Arline  20:37  
Yeah, you go from this here, all the answers, you have to have all the answers. This is the correct way. This is your morality, this these are your ethics, this is literally brought down from heaven and told you what you're supposed to believe and how you're supposed to behave. And yeah, in 20 years, you find that like, you don't have to have all the answers. Like, like, you're like, I don't have to have a label and I love the outdoors has become not your God. I don't know how to say that. But like has, where you go to find meaning and like purpose in life and whatever that feeling is that you get when you're out in in nature. Absolutely.

Andy Neal  21:14  
Yeah. The Stingley feelings used to get in the worship service, I feel those on the outdoors now. And I realized it's more of a biological response to to grandeur and bigness or community. It's not the Holy Spirit filling you because I get the same thing. When I climb up a mountain, I'm like, Oh, my gosh, look at this view. You know, it's discovered that's the same thing, a lot of its emotions, and adrenaline and chemicals and just things that your, your body is wired to do by evolution or by whatever. However, that's supposed to work.

Arline  21:44  
Yeah, for me, that was part of me leaving Christianity was starting to realize that a lot of the things that I used to think were sinful problems, were just like physiological stuff that I could deal with, with eating differently, or doing yoga or doing calming my nervous system. Whereas like, like you were saying, with your kids, the church spiritualize is everything. So then when they're actually biological things that can help or pharmacological I'm not even sure I'm saying that word, right? Like these things that can be helpful. They're not even options for us. Yep.

So you go hiking, like what? Yeah, I guess what are some of the things that that evokes inside of you, like you were saying, with the biological where some of your places you'd like to go, and,

Andy Neal  22:35  
gosh, I love to go anywhere, where I feel smaller. Oh, wow, I live I live two hours from the Redwood National Park. In Northern California, I'm in Southern Oregon, with two hours in there, you know, seven of the 10 largest trees in the world are there and I'm just to go and stand in front of a tree that's like, you know, this, this this tree, he was supposed to be here when Jesus was here, like, and it's the size of a house, you know, just width wise, and then it goes up and you can't see the top of it, or, you know, go to the from there you go to the ocean from climb up to the top of a platen, you know, we have the Taylor rock plateaus here or, you know, any of the mountains or peaks, bodies, a lover I just love like hiking by the Rogue River here in Southern Oregon, or go north to the Willamette River or the Columbia River Gorge. Those places where I'm just like, wow, like, and as a part of that, as this as a plus sized person, you know, dealing with you know, things like fatphobia and size discrimination. And being an advocate for that, for so many people is realizing, you know, the outdoors, bigger is better. And, you know, it's okay to take up space. And then, you know, for the first time in my life, having been big my whole life, having you know, dealt with eating disorders have been diagnosed with an eating disorder having found out because part of that eating disorder was because of toxic weight, my family dealt with food, but also, I had celiac disease, and I was undiagnosed for 34 years. So my body the way my body treated food, my mind was just messed up because it was food was literally killing me. But I was always hungry. That's a whole other story. But having though that my whole life and going out and feeling small sense of smallness. For me, it's just like, wow. And just in the grand scheme of the universe, like I'm significant, but same time. Look at all this. This is just epic and amazing and feeling that feeling of feeling small for me is just it's like none other

Arline  24:41  
is hiking and being out in nature. Like is that into like more of an independent thing or have you found like in real life community to share it with or

Andy Neal  24:50  
I have and I've been very, honestly very hesitant to get too plugged in into communities. There's one group that I'm friends with the founder unlikely hikers, which is anti, anti anti racist, pro, LGBTQ pro size organization that encourages everybody to get outdoors photogenic Rousseau. She's amazing. We become close friends and that group we've done we've done group hikes together here in southern Oregon and Portland and Salt Lake. And to get with other people who don't look like typical hikers, which, you know, when you think of hikers, you think of, you know, the dude in the Mountain Dew commercial, you know, he's rip doesn't wear shirt, you know, he's, he jumps off a cliff catches the Mountain Dew in midair, you know, that's what you think of, whereas the outdoors are for everybody in the outdoors, have healing properties for every person, you know, not just, you know, white dudes with ripped abs, white straight dudes with ripped abs. And so the unlikely hacker has been a huge community, my online community has been great. But I have been honestly hesitant to get involved with communities just because, you know, being burned by the church and then getting caught involved in the X Evangelical community for a while. And that was just found out how toxic that was for me. I'm very, I'm very hesitant of community. You know, like, what I do is also very lonely because now having this platform, you know, I can't in the outdoor spaces, or even Northwest and parks California, I can't go anywhere without like someone recognizing me. It's like, okay, does this person want to genuinely want to be my friend? Or are they just like me? Because I'm that dude, the dude from the hiking video? Yeah, you know, I've had issues where people have gone on a hiking trail. And people saw me and they took my video on picture and posted it without me knowing, like, Oh, I saw the hiking guide. And my kids are with me, and I'm like, That's not cool. You know, so don't post don't post my location too long gone. Stuff like that. Safety stuff that you'd have to think about, you know, when you're just you know, on Instagram, you're looking waterfall cool snapping, posted, it's like, No, we got to wait hold hours before we post this. So I've been very hesitant. You know, a lot of it because I was really burned by, by the church community, I'm still, it's very lonely. It's a, what I do, what I do is a very lonely job. You know, I have people who follow me who helped me, help me manage things. But it's it's been hard. Trying to find community is difficult, especially knowing you don't want to live in a big town, I don't want to live in a big town. I grew up in Southern California, Las Vegas, I love where I live. Now. I love the community here. But I know for me, that's something that I have to work through and find people I trust. Because when you leave the church, you have always this built in community. So I go from church, to church to church, you know, in ministry, you go the church, everybody want you know, we have this built in automatic community, like people are just there. And they're automatically your friends, because you're both Baptist or evangelical Christian. There, you're just supposed to be friends. And that isn't always great, because you have people who not necessarily are compatible, you know, trying to force relationships or friendships and no work. And the second I left, you know, after being burned so hard. All those friends, lifelong friends, friends from high school, who, you know, I surrounded myself with Christians in high school and college years, they're gone. Like, I can count the number of people who still have contact with me, hundreds of people on one hand, and it's very, it's very just cordial contact. It's not like, you know, deep, lasting friendships. So it's just been it's been difficult, you know, 40 years old now. And it's like, how do you make friends when all the friendships you grew and cultivated with in high school and college and through your 20s? And 30s? You know, you're an apostate. Now, they want nothing to do with you. And they're taught that, you know, you know, I came from a bit of a little bit of a reformed culture, you know, Calvinistic, so either they're like, Well, he was never really Christian, he was a liar, or, you know, he'll eventually come back. So either people are just, you know, an apostate or any conversation they have with me is trying to win me back to the Lord, which just, you know, my DMs are filled with that right now. So I don't want to deal with that. Oh,

Arline  29:23  
no, not at all. At least for me, it often feels dismissive. I'm like, You're not even hearing what I'm saying. You're not even seeing the person in front of you. You're seeing the person I used to be or the person you hope I'm going to be. And I'm like, no, like, just, let's just have a conversation. And I have a few, one or two friends that you know, I have very, like some super progressive Christian friends that back when I was a good Calvinist would not believe that they were actual Christians. But those kinds of people, I can keep those in my life. Our values are still similar, you know that. And then I have one or two gets more conservative, theologically friends, theologically conservative friends that I can talk to a little bit. But yeah, it's like, just talk to me, like, just hear me just hear my story. And then it's, it's extra icky. If you're in, you know, your DMS are filled with people who don't know you at all, and are trying to like, yeah, tell you what you need to believe. Yeah,

Andy Neal  30:22  
one real I posted in July just about I'm walking towards the ocean, just talking about talking about the subject about the loneliness of not having friends. Somehow, in the last three weeks that real has hit the Christian Instagram, from months ago. It's gone from like, 100,000, to USD almost a million in DM, after DM requests of, you know, three, three basic responses. Hey, you know, don't give up the Lord. Hey, I'd love to chat with you sometime to you're going, you're going to hell to you and never really a Christian, you know? And it's like, wow, how loving like really, and your posts wasn't even for them. It was just me expressing where I was, you know, and hoping to encourage others, which it has. I've gotten plenty of DMS from people said, Yeah, I love I left, I'm deconstructing I'm dealing with the same thing. But I'm just either someone to be shunned or someone to be one to them. And I hate that because I actively tried to not be that way for so long. In the evangelical church, I didn't want I wanted to see people for who they were, I didn't want to see people as a prize to be won. I didn't want to close the deal to get to say a prayer to except to use in their heart. That's why I think my youth groups were filled with such a variety of teenagers because they just felt welcomed and valued. And that's what I wanted. My accidentals, like if they choose, you know, if I'm really gonna stick my theology at the time very, somewhat Calvinistic. If Jesus so chooses to impress on the heart Hill, when I when that was just my attitude, I'm just gonna love people for who they are, and let Jesus do what Jesus does, which I think actually served me in realizing like, oh, wow, I'm missing a whole lot here. I'm missing a whole lot different experiences of my lived experiences, you know, straight cisgendered, white, you know, Protestant, Pastor, kid, a Protestant pastor, kids male privileged, is totally different from what all these kids are experiencing is, you know, they're coming to youth group and their parents, you know, have kicked them out of the house, because they came out, they're dealing with gender issues, they're dealing with, you know, economic issues, you know, mom can't pay the rent and things like that, you know, dad left. I'm like, wow, the eyes were just open to so many different experiences. And yeah, I just, it's eye opening. And it was very, I don't know, it's been it's been a journey. Yeah.

Arline  33:03  
Do you have advice for people who are like, I need all in wonder, and I need I want that the feeling that I used to have in church like, not, how did you get that in nature? Because then you're just like, trying to make nature do a thing for you. But like, how do people get started just like, being free like that? I guess?

Andy Neal  33:21  
Therapy? I mean, Oh,

Arline  33:24  
nice. Yes, no, no, please, therapy? Yes.

Andy Neal  33:27  
I I am a huge advocate for mental health and huge part of my platform. I had to really kind of look at myself. And therapy, forced me to do that. And a good therapist is not going to give you the answers. A good therapist is going to ask you the right questions about yourself and going to therapy, you know, in dealing with these questions of, you know, existential dread and, you know, dealing with questions of having to forgive myself for things I said and preach from the pulpit that weren't just wrong and horrendous and homophobic and chauvinistic, and borderline racists, if not full on race, like it's just like, oh my god, I used to see these things. I used to believe these things. Or even when times where I didn't necessarily believe them as I was slowly deconstructing, which was a slow process. I would say I'm just to make the church happy because like, Oh, I know that this line is a crowd pleaser. I'll say that and everybody will, you know, I'll preach on hell. And even though I was really kind of on the fence about what hell was in this and half the time, I'll preach on it. And I'll get a lot of amens and whoops and hollers and I did just because I want to keep my job, you know. And so therapy really was helpful in finding that, you know, the outdoors may not be that thing for you. It could be you know, another aspect for me is creativity, you know, going out, you know, movies, film cinema, it's a huge part storytelling that could be what it is for you that's kind of secondary for me and I've definitely my username on online as Andy films and hikes for a reason. I love those two things. So but really discovering who you are who, you know, you peel back, you know, all the religion, all those old experiences, what's left, and then you got to rebuild that. That's why the term deconstructing has been has been termed your, your deconstructing your faith, and who am I and what is it, I believe, and then you can begin to build that back up, you know, whatever that looks like for you.

Arline  35:33  
Yeah, getting to do this, interviewing people hearing people's stories, like, it's amazing how people find meaning and purpose and love and all in wandering community. Like all the things that the Church teaches us, they have cornered the market, this is where you get these things. And then people leave. And they're like, actually, yeah, it takes some work to find some of these things, but like, actually, it's just people helping and loving other people and creating the spaces to find these things and, and nature. Oof, yes. I don't know. I guess I was just trying to say that, like, it's beautiful. Seeing how many different ways people are able to find all the things that we were once told, you can only find this in church. Yeah.

Andy Neal  36:16  
And the church doesn't have a monopoly on truth. The church doesn't have a monopoly on community or big life changing experiences, but they'd like to, from my experience, that's what they told me. I I've, in deconstructing I definitely I visited some more liberal churches, some Universalist, Unitarian, and some UCC churches, which were great in the sense that there were there were Christians who, you know, they they did the traditional Christian things, you know, Sung hymns to the stuff, but then like to hear like the pastor from the pulpit. Say, Yeah, this part of the story, David, you know, when David best she got Bathsheba, you know, the Bible doesn't address the fact that best David was basically a murderer and a rapist, and he was actually kind of a bad guy. And he probably had homosexual relationships, too. And this is all stuff that they don't teach you. And we need to look at this for what it is. And realize that, you know, David wasn't perfect. He wasn't the we say he's a man after God's own heart. And just things I never heard like, what David was probably gateway, you're talking about, Jonathan, wait, what about but he had to do that with Bathsheba? And what is this all this like, wow, like, and just hear people say I believe in the Bible, but the Bible is inerrant. Like, okay, and use like literary criticism and things like that. Look at the Bible critically in the time it was written and who wrote it, and that the person we even like, Did Moses really write the Torah? No, probably not. It was mostly even real, we don't know. And just like to hear those things like, oh my gosh, and you know, for me, I can't be you know, liberal UCC Christian just because there's just so much triggering stuff in there. And for me, I was taught for so long, the Bible is inerrant. And then to go to a point where I'm like, this is true, like, these concepts are true, but this isn't true. The Bible says, you know, homosexuality is an abomination, but not really are things like that. I just can't, I can't split those hairs. So for me, it was just like, I can't do it. You guys are awesome. I love that you're loving people. I love that like church, I was going to for a few months, you know, they're they're marching in the Pride Parade. This is great. I love that you're doing this. I love that you're, there's moms out there since I'm a church mom, who has a gay son and I'm wanting to give you a hug. If your mom's stuff like that, like that's great. I love what you're doing. I just can't do because it's just, it's too difficult for me to make those theological leaps and to be constantly triggered. You know, they'll they'll be singing hymns and hymns. I know, but they changed the words which is great, but still, for me, that him old rugged cross, and you've changed the lyrics. It's still it's, it means something else to me. There's other there's time there's there's times where they did invitationals and you'll walk down the aisles and repentance things, and myself about church really saying that song and I'm like you a bad stuff. Can't do it. Yeah, that's a whole other tangent. Sorry.

Arline  39:12  
No, that's a great tangent. Because, you know, lots of people are still in the church. Lots of people are still like, like, there's Tim Whitaker of the new evangelicals. They're still marches but you know, these different people who are like trying to help white evangelicalism stop being the most terrible thing that it is, you know, like trying to help one of my best friend's very liberal church, they they were in the Pride Parade, they had a booth at the festival. They are trying to make their religion as kind and loving and good and like all the things as possible. I'm with you though. I'm I'm all the way to the point where I really don't think they're gods and goddesses like I don't think any of that stuff is real. However, unlike if you're if you're doing that, that's fabulous. I can't I got tired of being the being the light A person who had to decide whether this in the Bible was true, or is it an allegory or I was just like I can't and either you take all of it or it just, it just got to be too much. So I would very much understand that feeling of like, especially like you talked about literary criticism, like, okay, it's a poem, but that that poem in Psalms was the reason I was pro life and pro like birthday content, or like life at conception for so long. And I'm like, Okay, I can't I can't do this anymore.

Is there anything that you wanted to talk about that I haven't asked? Like you? You did fantastic with your story. And I'm like, what else do we have?

Andy Neal  40:43  
I think, for me, I want to touch on just being the slow process of me, converting, not converting D converting whatever you want to call it. It was, it was so gradual that I didn't even see it was happening. And it started. Before I was even like, a full time at a church. I was in Las Vegas. And I was working part time at a church as a children's pastor. And this was back in 2000. I want to say five, very much for the Lord. But I was also working part time at Starbucks, because I needed health insurance. And I remember I was close, I was closing the store with another two other Starbucks employees, one of them had I had a car. Other one had a car and the supervisor didn't have a car and he was going to take the bus home. It was raining in Las Vegas, which doesn't happen. It was pouring. And it was probably like, it was probably late winter. And he's about to get on the bus. And I'm like, dude, I'll take you home. Sweet name was Jamar. And he knew I was a children's pastor, and he was an openly, openly gay black dude. And, you know, at this point, I'm just like, I'm gonna love him to Jesus, you know, and he'll, he'll turn upon, he'll turn away from his gateways and all this crap, you know, that trying to be, you know, a liberal Christian, you know, like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna engage with the gay community and they're gonna, they're gonna see their ways and he's just gonna love women, you know, stupid stuff. And I remember we're driving and he said, Hey, can you see my Carl's Jr? Real quick, like, get some dinner, broke into my apartment. His apartment was not in a great part of town. I'm like, Hey, can you take the bus here everyday, please take the bus before I had a car. Like that's like an hour and a half to our bus. Right? You know, one way every day is like, yeah, man. Okay, that sucks, dude. So we get to the parking lot. It's raining. He's like, hey, you know, Andy, I used to be like you. And like, we couldn't be any different. This is a black dude who lives in, you know? Not so good part of town. He's gay. Like, we couldn't be any more different. And I'm like, What do you mean? He's like, so I wanted to be a pastor. For a long time. I'm like, wait, what? He's like, Yeah, I grew up in the black church. I grew up in church. I was like an intern. For a pastor. He was training me up. I was learning all kinds of stuff. But I was dealing with what I call a time you know, same sex attraction. That's what he called it the time. Yeah, that was the only thing so extraction. And, you know, I tried everything. I read all the books, I tried to pray it away, and it wouldn't go away. So I went to my pastor, and his pastor, essentially, shunned him said you are an abomination. You are not allowed here. His family shunned him, said, No, we only party you come back when you're not gay anymore. And he's like, I so badly just wanting to serve God serve Jesus. I wanted to do this. But I couldn't because of who I was. And for the first time in my life, I realized oh my gosh, like, he's not he's not choosing to be gay, or he's doesn't need to just repressed you know, same sex attraction. Like this is a part of who he is. And you saw the, the tears in his eyes and like, I was like, Oh my gosh, and from that point forward, it was just this. Okay, I need to keep more of an open mind about things. And slow like, I'm seeing things for other perspectives. You know, when the church champions like bathroom bills and stuff like that, I'm like, is that really the best thing we like? Should we be worrying about that? Like, and so much of my my deconstruction, I take back to that that car ride in Las Vegas with Jamar and just and just to see see humanity in someone's face, who wanted to be a part of the church who wanted to serve God, but was told you are an abomination. And that really set me on a path, you know, for the next you know, 15 years of really kind of looking at my, my faith and the way I treated people very critically and realizing, okay, the Bible says this, but practically that doesn't work out. Are these two these two things the Bible as much as you try with hermeneutics and other things to make them work together, they just don't. I'm putting one on one together and I keep getting three and that doesn't work. That can't be true. And it was that point in my life where, you know, I'm learning I'm growing and I'm reading start reading, you know, more liberal Christians like, oh my gosh, I got a Rob Bell book people are freaking out like crazy. Yeah, back on, you know, after Rob Bell said there was no hell and everybody through it burned his books. And just that that path I was on, you know, to where it's like, you know, I I voted for Obama, like the first time he ran, didn't tell anybody on the download. Second time, I voted for him in that I had posted online after he clearly one on my Facebook page I posted, you know, all people, my church, follow me, said, You know, it doesn't matter who the president is, you know, Jesus is still king basically saying, You guys quit it, don't worry about it. The church was the church was angry, because they thought that was a blatant like, he did he vote for Obama. So I wasn't, I was in my pastor's office for two hours, the day after the election, him trying to get me to say who I voted for it, I wouldn't say it. And a few weeks prior Well, he was out of town I had actually preached, I had actually preached about, you know, us loving the community and loving others and showing love to everyone. And I had said a statement in that sermon, I'm all about social justice. Meaning that you know, we need to clothe the naked for you the hung up stuff that Jesus in the gospels clearly say you're supposed to do. These are good things. Yeah, I use that word, social justice. And the deacons were up in arms, like, so you voted for Obama, and he's all about, you know, social justice. And I tried to explain what that meant. And, you know, and slowly this, that reaction I got, and then, you know, I go to the church, you know, back in Oregon, and it's like, you know, oh, you know, skinny jeans, tattoos, we accept everybody, except my children who have adopted from foster care who have been abused in every way possible for coming into our home. They have these mental health issues, which we're still dealing with today are still trying to get them treatment for. And they're saying we need to pray it away. And slowly, it was a slow, slow process of, and then I'll just, you know, crap hit the fan eventually. And then I was like, I'm out. I can't do this anymore. I say all that is to say, you know, it's, it's, it really is a process. Because I was in that community. And there was so much trauma bonding for me with the church, because that's what got me through a very traumatic childhood, that I had to really see for what it was. And that's not to say, you know, I always tell people, I'm never going to down on you for your deeply held spiritual beliefs. I am not going to tolerate if those deeply held spiritual beliefs impede on the rights or humanity of somebody else. And that's where I draw the line like, No, it's not gonna happen. You believe in Jesus. Great. You believe in the literal resurrection. You believe the Bible is in Aaron. Great. Don't put that on me or anyone else? Yes.

Arline  48:20  
David, is the main host. He just talks about like its death by 1000 cuts. Like there's rarely in a story where it's like, here, sometimes there's this big thing that happens, and you're like, I'm done. But usually you look back and you're like, there's a little bit here, a little bit here a little bit here. And yeah, it's slowly just, people have often said, they just came to realize, I don't think I believe this stuff anymore. And if it flies in the face with an I don't know, if I, you may have had this where people are like, you set out to leave? And it's like, no, like, I was just either living life or trying to make this work for me. And then all of a sudden, I'm like, actually, this isn't working for me.

Andy Neal  49:05  
Yeah, I've had the same thing happened where I people say, Oh, Andy left to pursue a career in your teen ministry because he was lured away by the Civil War. You know, he loved to go back to school and he went to Southern here, Southern Oregon University is seen as like Satan. You know, he got he got, you know, he went to a Bible college, but then he went to a liberal atheist college and then he got pulled away that way or now because, you know, I'm a full time influencer, and he just wants fame and fortune. And, you know, he's was lured away by the things of social media and things of this world. And I'm like, That which would make excuses I mean, no, you know, it was, it was death by 1000 cuts. It was a slow, just like I can't you get the point. You're like, I just, I just, I just don't believe this anymore. And that was a strange realization being being at being at Southern Oregon University being in a film class where I am in a group of, you know, students, you know, some of my first interactions with the trans community was at Southern Oregon University, I had never had interactions with having people in my group were making fun together who are trans, who are LGBTQ who are black, who are people I just I just didn't normally rub shoulders with and having a great time doing it. And I just realized, like, I'm not a Christian. Like, it just this realization is like sitting in this group, and we're filming stuff, and I'm just looking around, I'm like, I'm not a Christian. Like I wouldn't. It wasn't it wasn't this grand, huge theological realization. This was like, Yep, I, I can't do it. And this isn't me. It's just can't be true. And you know, I know, the theologian, and we haven't gone to Bible College. I'm always trying to figure out more things. And I'm reading things and discovering more things like oh, yeah, this is where this lineup. And I think the biggest thing for me was the realization that if Jesus, you know, Jesus had Jesus's death had enough power to save me, but doesn't have the power to save everybody. Like, that doesn't work for me, like, if Jesus, if Jesus can, Jesus's death, blood and Resurrection can save me. And I can choose to reject that. That means I have more power than Jesus, if that makes any sense. It's like, that doesn't compute. Like, or just like, if you like, if Jesus, Jesus is all powerful, and his death is Endo. Why could Why couldn't he just saved me? I'm choosing to reject that. So. And then it's gonna count things about freewill. And I'm like, it was just like, no, this doesn't work. And I'm getting off on a tangent here.

Arline  51:49  
Well, I mean, it takes so many like mental gymnastics to Yes, all of the things work. And it's just like, at some point, it's like, one of the women who've been on the podcast before. She's in our Facebook group, and she said, I was Calvinists. Apparently, God never chose to save me. So now I'm just gonna, you know, like, I don't have a choice in this. Like, I'll just continue with that. When people asked, he's like, Well, there's nothing I can do about it.

Andy Neal  52:14  
Yeah. Yeah. Was Calvinists really, truly aren't Calvinists? in and of themselves? They are. It's yeah. Oh, so was marked down for a while. So which is also also part of my, when he went down with the whole William Wallace a second thing that was also part of my deconstruction, like, Oh, this guy idolized who had been to the Axway nines conferences and like, oh, gosh, that's not very Christian. You know, he's in Seattle. We were thinking like, Oh, he's more of a liberal Christian. No, he wasn't. He was the ESV, toting, you know, hellfire and brimstone guy who's still preaching though. And Scottsdale. Great.

Arline  52:55  
Yep. Yeah, my little feminist heart starts the my blood starts to boil, because I just think about the pastors who can do pretty much anything and they'll just find a different pastor. They'll just go somewhere else, and they will get hired again.

Andy Neal  53:09  
That's one of those instances, I wish I would have listened to my wife because I was going to be a church planter next 29. And my wife went to the pastor's wife thing, and she's like, This isn't good. And I'm like, Oh, you just need to learn to be, I'll set an ass. Listen to those other pastors wives and, and be more submissive, and this and that, which, you know, my wife and I, we've never had a traditional gender role relationship she's always taken. She's always taken more than more male traditional role in our marriage and relationship and our parenting and I've always taken more of the female traditional role in our marriage, parenting relationship. It's just how it's worked for us. And that's how our attitudes are, you know, we did like the love and respect marriage conference thing and say, No, I actually require more love and she requires more respect. This doesn't work like this gender doesn't compete with us. So yeah.

Arline  53:57  
Well, yes, love and respect is a book we will but we will use that as a segue into Do you have any not that recommendations that have been helpful to you and your deconstruction, books, podcasts, YouTube, anything?

Andy Neal  54:14  
Gosh, there really it's been a bit of a struggle, I've only found one book, there's been so many just different resources and things that I've turned to and looked at but I find myself going down a rabbit hole because the algorithms are going at this up just watching getting myself more depressed and getting myself more anxious and angry. I just I just don't want to I don't want to I don't want to be the angry even ex angelical I don't want to be that guy. And I understand that for so many people that is a stage you have to go through it's a stage of grieving you're gonna be a I was that guy for a long time. And that's fine. I just don't want to be anymore cuz I didn't like who I was becoming. But one book I got to write here. This is why A hiker friend of mine has hiked the Pacific Crest Trail. I hope I was wrong about trail damnation, a true memoir. Tim Mathis is a friend of mine, hiker. He's also written a book about hiking the dirt bags guide to the life, eternal truth. Riker trash, ski, bums and vagabonds, this has been very helpful just telling his story as another outdoors person. Yeah, it's been it's been great. He's been on my podcast, the hacker podcast, which is now the venture is out there podcast. And we just taught we Co Co misery about our experiences in the evangelical world. And that has been been super, super helpful. But yeah, there hasn't, you know, I've listened to a lot of other podcasts and other things. And really, you know, the most, the most help, this is gonna sound so weird, the most helpful piece of media and my deconstruction construction, has actually been the movie version of Donald Miller's book, Blue Like Jazz.

Arline  56:03  
I didn't know there was a movie. I knew the book. But it was off limits because I was a good Calvinists and didn't see those crazy liberals.

Andy Neal  56:10  
Yes, he talked about Mark Driscoll, the cussing pastor and all that, but there was a movie, which was taped, and it talks about how really how Donald came from a, you know, Southern Baptist, Texas upbringing, and he goes up to Portland, Oregon, goes to our liberal school, after suffering some trauma from his church, and the process of deconstruction and kind of kind of leaves you hanging whether or not he's really a Christian at the end or not. But just for me, that piece of media does seem that and you know, from my own experience, leaving Southern Baptist, you know, yeah, sure, some more little liberal trips going to Oregon, it was very helpful to seeing this the struggle on the in the, the existential dread, and I go back to that movie a lot. I don't know why I just I find comfort in it. And I relate a lot with that story. The movie has changed a lot from the book, the book isn't, it's really a series of blue light, as is really a series of essays, whereas the book is the books really series of essays, whereas the movie is more of one continual memoir or narrative, so that he takes from those a lot, a lot of liberties are taken. But yeah, that piece, I don't know what it is. And this is hard to find, I actually ended up buying a copy just because it's really hard to find now on streaming or anything else, but and I wouldn't endorse Donald Miller as an author or person at this point in my life, based on what I've seen from him online. Also, there's another another person, who I've just, even though, can be very problematic, Joshua Harris. And when he posts online, he's one of the few like, ex Christians I follow. Back in my very active Twitter days, we actually had some dialogue. He started following me for a while. And even though he's done some pretty problematic things, you know, about trying to monetize deconstructing, like, if you're here. But just think, seeing this person who I held on a pedestal at age 19 when he was only like, 21. And you hear a story, it's like he was, he was thrust into this, and not minimizing the responsibility he needs to take for his own actions, but just seeing what he went through a huge grand scale. I'd seen him speak probably a dozen times. He was a Southern Baptist darling. And, you know, he's doing his thing now trying to, you know, figure out, you know, him and his wife separated amicably. And he just tried to ease up in Canada trying to do his thing, the thing that like, wow, someone like him, who I held on this pedestal, who I based my entire pre marriage relationship with my wife upon his teachings. And he couldn't do it. It just gives me comfort. A lot. And I'm not saying like both Donald Miller and Joshua Harris, there's some problematic things. Yeah, there's there's definitely trigger warning there and other things, but just I relate a lot of ways, knowing these guys, these champions of evangelicalism, they fell hard in the eyes of the church, and makes me feel like wow, they really don't have it figured out. And that gives me comfort, if that makes any sense.

Arline  59:38  
No, it does. There's some times that I'm like, I would love to just sit down with Beth Moore, Jen Hatmaker just different women who've just been like, you know, butchered all over the place, and just be like, how are you doing? What's going on? Like, you know, like, how are you? What's life like these days, you know, so I get it.

Andy Neal  59:58  
That's more he's one of the nicest people you ever meet. You've met Beth Moore. Oh, I'm jealous. We were I was at a conference and we are Turfan got stuck in the mud after a rainstorm, bunch of a slug and she came out there and start talking. How can I help you all? The nicest person I literally have ever met. Like, and yeah, I've watched has been through what she's had to go through. I'm like, wow, that's uh, you know, this was back in like 2003. But it was hard to find me. Follow me on Instagram or Tiktok at Andy films and hikes or on YouTube at any function hikes, mostly outdoor, and body confidence content I do occasionally post about. Well, I'm in the mental state to do a post about my journey and faith, I try to be very careful about it. Because it invites a lot of a lot of conflict and invites, a lot of people just want to argue if I turn the comments off on those kinds of posts, the DMS are even more so. So I'm just like, yeah. My hope is with this particular podcast that I can share my story and be like, because I get asked all the time. Oh, you know, watch. Tell me your story. I'd like to hear you. Listen, listen to this. And you can hear my story. Yeah. And yeah, that's the best way to find me. Instagram, Tik Tok or YouTube at Auntie films and hikes.

Arline  1:01:15  
Yay. Well, Andy, thank you so much for being on the podcast. I really enjoyed this. This was wonderful.

Andy Neal  1:01:20  
Thank you for having me.

Arline  1:01:28  
My final thoughts on the episode. I've been following Andy. Since I think since I got back on Instagram, like he just popped up in my reels. It was his going for stupid hike for my stupid mental health reel. And it was just fantastic. And his body positivity, his anti diet, culture stuff, like all these different things, just getting out in nature. And nature's for everyone. Like all these things. I was like, Wow, this all this resonates with my little my little heart. And then to know, where he's had to come from, to get to where he is now, in terms of loving himself, seeing nature and being able to just have the all and wonder and that whatever that experience is that you get whenever you're out in nature when you're like he said, when you're around something that's so much bigger than yourself. You don't have to go into the supernatural world to find it. Like it's really, it's right here on this planet. Oh, I just love it. I just love it all. One of the things that stood out to me, is y'all, us in the x, then Jellicle X religious world. We've got to have our feelings, because that's reality. We've got to like go through whatever parts of that, I guess stages of grief that we need to whenever we've lost something. We've got to have the feelings, yes. But we cannot be like a toxic community where people can't come and where it's just anger and meanness, anger and meanness. I'm very thankful for the Facebook group. Because it is it isn't like that. But yeah, there's a lot of just anger at the church. And when you find your people online to be angry with it can it can keep going, it can escalate. But yeah, we can't be that because not everybody needs that. We've got to figure out how to deal with our junk and make space for anger. Because yes, we have to have it. But I guess not just sit there and stew. Andy, I'm so glad that you're You're out. You're finding finding all the things that you needed to find you're able to find it in nature and your life now. It's fabulous. Y'all like getting out of religion. They told us all that they told us that these things can only be found in religion. It's not true. Just flat out not true. Community, love, solid relationships, all wonder, like all of these things. All of these things can be found outside of religion, history.

David Ames  1:04:11  
The second is a great start of the week, inspired by Andy is accepting your body. Within the Christian bubble, the idea of the flesh being evil, I think extends to the rejection of our bodies, whichever shape, size, or form it takes. A part of secular grace is accepting oneself and that includes our humanity, as well as our physicality who we are embodied. And what is inspiring about Andy's story is not being limited by our bodies, but experiencing nature being outdoors. Until next time, my name is David and I am trying to be the graceful atheist. Join me and be graceful human beings. The beat is called waves by MCI beats. If you want to get in touch with me to be a guest on the show, email me at graceful atheist@gmail.com. For blog posts, quotes, recommendations and full episode transcripts head over to graceful atheists.com. This graceful atheist podcast part of the atheists United studios Podcast Network

Transcribed by https://otter.ai