One of the most difficult things about deconstruction, deconversion, etc. is feeling alone. It’s terrifying not only to go through a full blown metaphysical and existential crisis, but to do so knowing that the people who are supposed to love you the most can’t or won’t accept you as they once did.
My guest this week is Vanessa. She describes herself as “born into a large family of fire and brimstone preaching, bible beating, in-tongues-speaking Christians in the Pentecostal Church of God faith tradition.” Her father, her grandfather, and her great grandfather all were pastors of her home church.
My full break from faith came in the form of rage when it hit me that I’d never had parents – I’d only had pastors.
She began to doubt at a fairly young age and discovered she no longer believed in god in her college years.
As a non-believer she married her believing husband. Recently being unequally yoked has become a discussion point as they negotiate how to raise their daughter. Vanessa is grateful she can be present for her daughter in a way she did not receive when she was young.
We discuss unequally yoked marriage, secular parenting and post-traumatic church syndrome.
Michael tells us his deconversion story that he no longer sees as deconversion. He describes his rediscovery of a rational spirituality.
I feel simultaneously connected and alone and that is part of being human.
Michael and I hit a broad range of conversation topics including having conversations that matter, models vs reality, A.I., Death Cafes, vision quests, blind spots and podcasting.
Reality Knows the Truth: The Art and Artifice of Being Human About Rational Spirituality–a way of looking at the world with a balance between ancient wisdom and modern reason. https://michael.ck.page/d36a3d2338
My guest this week is Rachael Parsons Svendsen. Rachael is a Licensed Marriage and Family Counselor at RCPS Therapy. Rachael became a Christian at three years old. She went to Biola University and studied philosophy. Later in life she experience the effects of Religious Trauma: just setting foot in a Church she would break down in tears.
Honesty is an important value for Rachael and part of what led her to deconversion. She talks about the difficulty of relationships with believers in her life while attempting to maintain honesty.
Rachael and I investigate the experience of cognitive dissonance and religious trauma. We discuss the importance of the Easter story to Western thought, what is like to parent post-deconversion and the loss of the (false) sense of control after deconversion when difficult life events occur.
Rachael points out that she does not have it all together post-deconversion. We agree we are all winging it.
I am a Scientist, Skeptic, and Professor at Bryant University and the IBNS, Brown University. My goal is to make technical subject matters widely accessible and to use my analytical and computational skills to assist anyone with their science-related problems.
In this episode, I take the restraints off myself and express the reasons why I think apologetics is faulty. Brian is the perfect guest for this. We bounce ideas off one another to articulate good epistemology. We discuss how mathematics and Bayes can be abused by injecting unstated information which changes the probabilities and ultimately the conclusions one comes to.
We also discuss how beliefs have consequences. The current rash of conspiracy theories have had real-world effects. Brian explains how decision theory can be used to make difficult choices.
My guest this week is David Johnson, the co-host and creator of the Skeptics and Seekers podcast and blog. David is a former Church of Christ member and a pastor’s kid. He was baptized at 7, leading the church in song at 7, preaching at 12, the youth leader at 15 and assistant minister at 21.
Was I the real thing? Pathologically so.
His deconversion process began as he examined the Church of Christ’s doctrine against musical accompaniment in worship. He says “the little things, were the big things.” And if the little things were wrong, what else might be wrong?
You know, I think we might be wrong about that [instrumental accompaniment]. And that was hard for me. It was hard in a way that I am not going to be able to express. For me, if we were wrong about musical instruments, we were wrong about everything.
It was so hard for me to say, not out loud mind you, “I don’t believe there is a god.” And then to say it out loud … alone in the woods where no one can hear.
Today David uses an unabashed polemic approach to counter-apologetics to reveal the problems with Christianity and faith in general. You can find him on his Skeptics and Seekers podcast and on his appearances on Justin Brierley’s Unbelievable? podcast. You can read the book he co-authored in response to Justin Brierley: Still Unbelievable!
The damage I did on the other side [as a believer] keeps me up at night.
My guest this week is Sarah. Sarah is a co-author of the book “Still Unbelievable!” She is a regular poster on the Unbelievable? discussion boards. Sarah has a unique blend of down to earth perspective and an intellectual rigor.
In some respects, it is like being skinned alive layers of belief are being pulled away.
Sarah grew up a Christian. She was a part of the Shepherding Movement which is now considered a cult. She has moved from the Anglican church, to (British) Baptist, and then to Charismatic Vineyard churches. Until she began to research her own faith. What she found was an utter lack of evidence and a confusing morass of conflicting information.
You are giving god CPR. You really are trying to keep it alive with the best intentions
She describes her search for validation as “going forensic” as she studied apologetics, philosophy, cosmology and evolution. Ultimately, she could not keep god on “life support” and she is now an agnostic.
Love is a good way to live your life. Love is the point. We’ve only got this present moment. That is all we know for certain.
My guest this week is Jessica Hagy. Jessica is the artistic and comedic genius behind the blog, Indexed. She has recently written a book titled, The Humanist Devotional. Jessica is an artist, an author, a comedian, a marketing and social media guru.
Get as humble as you can.
Jessica grew up secular and calls herself a humanist. It is not that she rejected the bible, but rather that there was so much more for her to learn. In the episode she uses the analogy of a library card as granting access to the world’s knowledge. Access that she took advantage of.
Small talk can get big fast.
We walk through her 10 steps on how to be an interesting person and re-imagine them as how to find meaning and purpose as a humanist.
“Waves” track written and produced by Makaih Beats
Transcript
NOTE: This transcript is AI produced (otter.ai) and likely has many mistakes. It is provided as rough guide to the audio conversation.
David Ames 0:11
This is the graceful atheist podcast. Welcome, welcome. Welcome to the graceful atheist podcast. My name is David, and I am trying to be the graceful atheist. I want to start with a brief comment about the current events in the secular world. The hosts of Good Mythical Morning Rhett and Link have both published their deconstruction stories on their podcast Ear Biscuits, I highly recommend that you go take a listen to that. beyond just their very public deconstructions, as well as other high profile former Christians who have come out as either D converted or deconstructed has prompted a fair amount of hand wringing amongst the believers and apologists in particular. And I just wanted to state here that many of the hot takes we hear from the apologist class, about why people do convert are just dead wrong. And I propose to you if you are a believer, or if you are an apologist, that you talk to people who have deconstructed their faith, or D converted, and ask and listen, rather than asserting the reasons that you think people did convert. My podcast is full of many people telling their stories of deconversion. Listen to these stories, listen to the very common message of very dedicated believers trying to follow God to the best of their ability, and finally having to admit to themselves that it does not work and they no longer believe. I personally think that adult deconversion so not someone in their young adulthood in teenage and early college years, but somebody who has lived out their faith for some time, it was a life altering faith and life defining faith. And that type of person. D converting, says a great deal about faith and religion more than apologists give it credit. So I'll just leave this open. If you are curious about what makes people D convert, you should actually ask one of us and I will make myself available. Please contact me at graceful atheist@gmail.com If you're interested in having discussion, or coming on the podcast to have that discussion. Now onto today's show. My guest today is Jessica Hagy. Jessica is an artist, a cartoonist, a comedian, and author and a social media guru. She does her artwork on the wildly popular blog indexed, check out her blog at this is index.com. Today we discuss two of her books. One is called the humanist devotional. And it was her mentioning this on Twitter that prompted our conversation. And a second book that she wrote several years ago called How to be interesting. Before we get to that conversation, I just need to note here that during the editing process, I noticed that during this conversation I come across as very mansplaining. And I just want to apologize to Jessica, I think Jessica is an amazing artist. She's incredibly talented, and her work speaks for itself. The only thing that I'll note here is that Jessica grew up secular and never had a faith experience herself. And so there are many times in which I was tying it back to what I perceive is my core audience, those people who have D converted or deconstructed from a fundamentalist faith, be the judge for yourself. Jessica is amazing. And her work is amazing. And if you need to stop this podcast to go look at her work, you should do that. Otherwise, I now give you my conversation with Jessica Hagy.
Jessica Hagy, welcome to the Graceful atheist podcast.
Jessica Hagy 4:14
Thank you for having me. Good to talk to you.
David Ames 4:17
Occasionally, once in a while, Twitter is a good thing. This might just be one of those good things I happen to see, I believe was the Friendly Atheist advertising the fact that you had just now written a new book called the humanist devotional. Yeah, I tried to keep my ear to the ground about humanism and those kinds of things. In like 15 minutes, we established that we would do an interview together. But I have to admit that I was entirely ignorant of your work. So I went out and looked at all of your work. And it turns out, you are a cartoonist, an artist, an author of multiple books. A hugely successful blogger, a poet, you have a TED talk. You're a man Half geek, a comedian, a marketing guru, an observer of humanity, a social media ninja, and effectively nerd crack cocaine and making us all look bad.
Jessica Hagy 5:11
A lot of adjectives to Trump,
David Ames 5:13
is there anything that you cannot do?
Jessica Hagy 5:16
I cannot dance or sing.
David Ames 5:20
Tell us briefly about the books, you've written some of your work, you know, in your own words,
Jessica Hagy 5:24
yeah, a lot of the work I do focuses on using graphs and charts and that sort of visual format to tell stories and to get ideas across. Because it seems like there's sort of a visual grammar embedded in sort of lines and directionality, that adds a lot of punch to really any sentence you throw at it. So it's a format I've had a lot of fun with. And I started doing this sort of work in around, Gosh, 2006. So in internet years, I'm like, a billion years old and should be fossilized. But I put up a blog of that called indexed, and then index became a book in around 2008. And another book came out in around 2012, which is how to be interesting, which is done the same sort of formatting and things like that. And that did really well. And then I picked up the Art of War, which is really, really weird. It's like 300 sentences. And I thought, like, these are captions, and they need images. So I illustrated the art of war. And that was another book that came out. And then I did, I've been illustrating other people's books like crazy since then. And then the humanist devotional is one that just came out now, which is one of those things like there are all these devotionals and daily readers, and they're all sort of very Christian centric. Yes. There are a lot of other goofy nerd people out there who would just kind of like to read something that's philosophical without being religious. So I put this together, which is 366 different meditations. But they're daisy chained in sort of alternative Venn diagrams. And even talking about my work, you can probably hear people out there being like, what the heck like, but it's one of those sorts of, once you see it, you get it formats. And that's, that's what I'm up to now.
David Ames 7:18
Yeah, I wanted to address right off the bat that we have the impossible task of trying to describe a visual medium in words, which is just Yeah. So for my listeners, just go out and Google indexed or Jessica Hagy, and you'll find it immediately. And I find like, it's kind of deceptively simple, particularly that a graph or the Venn diagram, art is packed with information. And it's almost like a joke, right? There's a setup. And then there's a moment aha moment where you get it. Yeah. And then I've also seen that you've you've actually done kind of as you've presented your work on stage. It is almost comedic. It's almost like you're doing comedy work. Yeah.
Jessica Hagy 7:58
Cuz explain sort of talking my way through a diagram. And then you hear people in the audience like, get it? Yeah. And the time lag between showing it and the weird giggle is that like, wonderfully awkward, like, I know it's coming. I just have to wait for everybody to kind of look up and, and read the thing. Yes, yeah, that's always been one of my like, most awkward, but I kind of own it, because I know the punch line is coming. If I don't say anything, sort of moments.
David Ames 8:24
The reason I mentioned you being a comedian is that's a real skill, the the timing and the delivery of the patience to let the audience catch up to what you have presented visually is a really, it's very good.
Jessica Hagy 8:38
Thank you. It was one of those. It's, I just started drawing things and not really being present in a live space while they're being absorbed. And the first couple of times I did it, I was sort of like, what is going to happen here? Really fun, or people are just going to look at me like crazy person. Yeah, out of here. That's awesome.
David Ames 8:57
I wanted to ask, just from an artistic point of view, I've heard other people or other artists talk about the freedom of constraints. Yeah. So you kind of set out this constraint of being on an index card and just talk about that a little bit to make it easier to to make it harder.
Jessica Hagy 9:15
Honestly, the the sort of generation of this started when, way back in 2006, I, I was working as an advertising copywriter. And I heard that everybody needs a blog. Every writer needs a blog, but everybody was doing these sorts of like, this is what I had for breakfast this morning. Graham like made that almost sexy. And I didn't want to do that. But I had access to free office supplies at work. And I was just like these little index cards, I can just like squirrel these away and fiddle with them. And I just started taking notes on them and I was using them for taking notes at class at night. I was getting my MBA because writing Victoria's Secret taglines was running my brain. And I was just trying to figure it out like Have something to do with things. And the graphs were a lot of school. And they were the opposite of everything I did in my day to day life. And I just started sort of using them as an escape doodle. Yeah. And then I was just like, and I can fit three index cards on a scanner. And that's three things. So I thought I'd kind of like snuck around by grabbing a really small format.
David Ames 10:24
I want to get more to your work, and specifically the humanist devotional, but I'm curious what your story is, where as far as leader, did you grew up? Was there any religion in your home, were you always a humanist, um,
Jessica Hagy 10:35
I grew up with my dad converted to Catholicism to do the wedding for my mom. And she had us in Catholic school. But I also had a library card. So that didn't, those two veins of information gathering didn't quite match. And I remember doing the due up the stand up confirmation move, where you have to stand in front of the microphone and swear that you believe everything. And I did that. And I was just like, I felt so dirty. And I was just like, I'm out. I'm, that was that was bad. That was bad news. That was a bad feeling. And I'm just gonna keep reading my library books. And that's just how I've been
David Ames 11:21
very cool. My podcast is very much targeted at people who did have a faith into their adulthood. Yeah, and who subsequently recognize that it isn't true. But the thing that rings true to me about that statement you just made is I went to Bible college, and in college, it was all about, you know, learning to think critically, and to question things. And immediately afterwards, to be, you know, certified to get the first step towards becoming a pastor was the sign on the dotted line, you believe these things, you will preach these things. X, Y, and Z. And I felt just exactly as dirty. Even though I was very much a believer at the time. So it's interesting, interesting point of honesty there.
Jessica Hagy 12:05
That nagging feeling of like, Wait a minute. Yeah, I think sometimes you see, like, some kids are really like, of course, like, whatever, just go for it. Like, how could you worry about this? And it's like, I worry about everything. I overthink everything. How can you not overthink this large piece of stuff that they're like telling you all the time? Like, how can you not like fiddle with, like, what's behind it? So anyway, that's just one of my neuroses, that probably led me down this path. So Well, I think
David Ames 12:35
and asking the big questions, and you're trying to put those out in a meaningful art, both artistic and philosophical kind of way, is really interesting combination.
Jessica Hagy 12:49
Yeah, I remember one time I was, I don't know, like eight or 10. Like, I just figured out how to ride a bike. And I was like, why am I me? Wow, like, such a dumb, why am I need? And then like, the next the next week, we had, oh, this is how genetics works. And you're just like, whoa, like, there's an answer to every stupid question I've ever had. There is an answer out there. And that was just the most like, if I can ask that kind of question to myself and have it haunt me, and then get an answer to it. I can find everything I can just find out like, it's gonna be okay.
David Ames 13:26
Yeah. So let's talk about the the book, the humanist devotional, a little bit, again, just some of my story I what I found really profound, after what I call D, converting, losing my faith, and really doing what you've just described, exploring science, exploring philosophy, was the discovery of the age of these questions that humanity has been asking and attempting to answer these questions since the beginning of recorded history since before that, and really, I felt very rooted in kind of a historical tradition of question askers. And so I really feel like that's kind of a bit of the heart of your, your book here. But talk to me about the decision to make this book and what are the sources that you drew upon?
Jessica Hagy 14:10
So I was listening to a lot of lectures on philosophy, like historical, how did this civilization become thinking like this? And how did that idea spread around the world? Or how did it not? Or who picked up what, from where, and I was just like, that was a really fascinating sort of interesting way to think about, oh, this idea is really built on 7000 years of other ideas that have all like fallen into it. And I always love quotations and how they sort of distill things like you can get an entire philosophy that took 7000 years distilled in one sentence, like, what is that like? Oh, that's, that's such a cool sort of like linguistic chemistry. And I had the, the Yale book of quotes, which is like the official quotes, and I always had like little note cards in there. I didn't write in it, but it was just full. And then I was looking around in a used bookstore and I found other I found Bartlett's, I found the Forbes book of quotations, I found another couple really old ones, like, you know, they're good when they're like, yellowed. You open them up. And I was like, okay, so you can't search the internet for quotation. So you also get like, Abraham Lincoln loves to twerk. And that just, nothing's real. So you have to go to these like, original source books, and going through those. And then I just started sort of picking out the ones that I liked, or what really echoed, really, to me, I'm putting them in order. And that's how the book came around. So it's a lot of things distilled, and a lot of things reorganize, and hopefully they get redistilled. Like the watercycle. Like, it rains, and it falls down and it comes back to something else. So yeah, that's what I tried to do.
David Ames 15:56
And then you've described you kind of hinted at it, or at the intro of the breakdown of a sentence that there is a form to that. And that's that's part of the way that you draw this art.
Jessica Hagy 16:07
Yeah, I think the the sentence as an object for people is, it's so useful, it can say a lot of things. And yet it can have wiggle room for interpretation, and that interpretation, sort of accordion motion of how does this sound to your ear? And how does it look on the page? And how does one sentence contradict another sentence and let them both be true. And so that was I was part of the fun of putting these together in the arrangement that I ended up putting them in,
David Ames 16:37
I noticed that your style changes from time to time. So the humanist devotional is not exactly like index, and the Art of War is not exactly like I have the other the other two. Is that just exploring new Artistic Media?
Jessica Hagy 16:51
A lot of the things that I do are, I wonder if I could tweak it a little bit. And so I fit in with my own format, just to see maybe if it's something new or something different? And a lot of the times it's okay, you've done that. Now, what are you going to do? It has to be a little bit different, or it's not fresh enough to sort of like sell out to the public. But if it's a total divergence, then it's like, that's not you. Right. I'm sort of keeping that knitting going with like switching up the stitches.
David Ames 17:22
Interestingly enough, today's message in the humanist devotional is really on point. And there's two quotes, Abbie Hoffman sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. And Arthur C. Clarke. How inappropriate to call this planet earth, when it is clearly ocean. And then your Zinger is sudden realizations can make previously held ideas seem silly. I had already marked this one out as something I wanted to chat with you about because it describes the feeling of deconversion. So precisely. Now, I realized that's not a part of your particular experience. But for those of us who go through it as this huge paradigm shift in which all of our sense of reality has has changed. Sometimes that feels instantaneous. Sometimes that is drugged out over a long period of time. But this captures that so well, sudden realizations can make previously held ideas seem silly. I mean, that just encapsulates it entirely.
Jessica Hagy 18:21
Thank you. You know, one of the things about putting this together was every page has to resonate with the people who read it. Yes. And so nothing could be too specific as to a certain certain feeling and yet had to be big enough that it would be understandable. Do you know what I mean? That sort of how can this really be a real shock for you to open up the book and really feel related to it on any day that it works? And I did when I was working in advertising. I wrote a lot of horoscopes for different brands oh god yeah, yeah. So remember to
David Ames 19:00
make you feel dirty.
Jessica Hagy 19:03
I feel okay the worst thing I wrote a lot of marketing for JPMorgan Chase and subprime housing market and around 2004 2006
David Ames 19:12
So it's all your fault yes.
Jessica Hagy 19:15
I can't believe in hell because I but the idea that you got that distinct like this feels like something I've actually experienced like thank you like that's what I was really going for to get. Every time you open the book up it should speak to you but that it should speak to everyone but you specifically and use and all of that and so that makes me feel great that it's
David Ames 19:41
stuck. But I see what you're tying it together with a little bit of the idea of a horoscope it's it's broad enough, that that we see ourselves if they did the Rorschach test, we see ourselves in it and we we connect it to our own personal story.
Jessica Hagy 19:57
Yeah, but that's another weird linguistic trick. like is when it's when the sentence begins with, you know that all of a sudden, the people are like I do, okay. And even before you get to the next part of the sentence, they're already sort of bought in, and the second person really pulls that through. And I think when you put any sort of book or object together, if it's always you're thinking of the reader, as you, you're here with me, I'm thinking about this, how would you feel? And that's like, I got far enough away from my own sort of like authorial perspective on this, that I was always in the readers mode. And that felt really good, especially working with other quotes. I was always sort of an outside observer. And that made editing it a lot easier, if that makes sense to
David Ames 20:44
kind of and actually sparks another question of, how do you think of yourself? Do you think of yourself as an artist or an author or something else,
Jessica Hagy 20:55
I always just have artist and writer because I, I draw and I use words so heavily. And everything is really sort of linguistically and poetically inclined, even if it is drawn or painted, or presented in a format that's not typical, like block of
David Ames 21:13
text, right? In our email exchange, you said something really, I thought was beautiful. One of the things I wanted to do with the humanist devotional was present humanism as a more optimistic way of thinking, as opposed to a philosophy that's merely an opposition to religion. Oh, yeah. So again, that really resonates with what I am trying to do. But let's explore that idea. What did you mean by that?
Jessica Hagy 21:38
So even thinking about just talking about our own sort of, how did you had a serious break and or reorganization of your entire life when you left your religious scenario? And I think mine was more of a just like, huh, man, these other things, right? And it was, it was never like, this is terrible. And you should stop, you should stop this. It was more just like, well, I, I found this other really cool book and like, I'm going to read that instead. And so the instead was always more appealing and uplifting. It offered something, as opposed to just be like, No, I don't like this. And a lot of the atheism spaces are really sort of not up with thinking but down with religion. Yeah, that doesn't feel good to me. Yeah,
David Ames 22:24
I should have said this ahead of time. But any criticisms of atheism are welcomed, because I criticize it all the time? I think this is exactly part of the problem is if we are just purely in opposition to you know, that's silly. That's just not a very interesting position to take.
Jessica Hagy 22:44
No, and it's it makes it makes a very small mindset, like, can't you can't grow from a point of no, yeah, you can grow from a point of, I want to see what happens in this petri dish. But you can't grow from I'm just going to set this building on fire like that. Yes, that's it just makes people uncomfortable. And it doesn't offer them anything like uplifting, right? And you can be uplifting in any sort of way.
David Ames 23:13
Yeah, you know, I think that's, that's a really good way to describe your work, not just the humanist devotional, that even index there is a hopefulness in there, there's something inspirational about the work that you do, whether that's I don't know, if it's intentional. I think if
Jessica Hagy 23:29
I'm going to draw something or write something it can be, it can be a little bit snarky. Like, this is an odd subject. Yes. But also like, but in the context of the world, like, it's kind of fun. Yeah, there's, there's, I mean, even true, evil is absurd. And it's evilness, right? So the capturing the absurdity and the sort of wonder of stuff is my default setting, I think.
David Ames 23:53
So I had said to you about for me, the way I try to encapsulate this is to put the humanity back into humanism. And so one of the things that I found, again, as as this was a discovery as an adult, imagine just, you know, waking up one day and discovering this, you know, huge world, that library card of these writers and philosophers and just reveling in that. Yeah. But one of my criticisms of humanism is that it tends to be kind of locked in the intellectual high tower, right? It's this from a philosophical point of view, you know? And it's a debate culture and it's, so I'm really interested in in talking about humanism as normal people as a as a regular human being with emotion and feelings, and it feels like that resonates with your work as well. Yeah, and
Jessica Hagy 24:43
but so much of just reading philosophical texts. I mean, that stuff is chewy. You just you open it up, and you're just like, that paragraph is gonna take me three days to really sort out in my brain what this guy's talking about like okay, I know So this is important and foundational, I should understand it, but really like, what does it mean day to day real people real feelings? Like, what's the soundbite and I hate to be so like, short attention span theater about it. But really like, what is the what is the main chunk that I can carry with me and interpret into other ways and so much of philosophy and religion and arguments like that? It's good to know and good to understand and all of that. But the the human to human conversation isn't like, ancient Greek arguments. Yes.
David Ames 25:39
I'm trying to decide, should I quote back to you some of the things and get your spin on them, or I love a few of these, like, what is valuable is not new, and what is new, is not valuable. Every generation has to relearn everything their ancestors already figured out that one really? Oh,
Jessica Hagy 25:57
yeah, going through just like 10s of 1000s of quotes. And when you find one that's just like, that is sticky. And that is, that's some real, real juicy stuff there. And the things you said, were not 12th grade linguistic acrobatics, of vocabulary and things like that. They're really straightforward observations. And that's the kind of stuff that really works for me, because you can take those apart and put them back together and really present them and let them do the work for you.
David Ames 26:30
I wanted to talk about just from a creative point of view, almost a confessional on my part. I am kind of the stereotypical white ish guy, who when I went through this transition, I thought, Oh, I have so much to say to everyone. And the fascinating thing was coming to recognize, again, the oldness of these questions, the oldness of even the answers that I find so compelling today are so derivative, I find that though I am still obsessed with the idea of expressing things in some unique way expressing it in a in a non derivative way. Is that something that you try to do as well?
Jessica Hagy 27:10
Yeah, it is. One of the things like the more I read, the more I feel like I haven't had an original idea in 1000 years sort of thing. Yeah. And when you are just sort of bombarded with something. And then you're, I'll be doodling out things or thinking about the next thing. And I'll be like, Did I read that somewhere? Did I have that thought myself? Is that something I've accidentally stolen? And translated into my weird format? Like, what? Where did that come from? And then I'll have to sort of google myself to make sure I'm not plagiarizing other people on accident, like three years later, or something. And it's one of those. Thank goodness, there's Google, because you do realize that everything is so interconnected, and people are always doing these different things. But I think you can't, it's always going to be like a weird Xerox, right, like you make a photocopy gets a little mocked up, you do it again, like the JPEG falls apart, something changes. So you might feel like you're being derivative, or you're not, or you're not having an original idea, but you are in your own way, like you're having an idea with your spin on it. Always.
David Ames 28:14
Yeah, and I you know, culture is inescapable. So we are swimming in the ideas of our peers, and those have gone before us. So in some sense, absolutely. Everything is derivative. It's nothing new under the sun. But we are definitely putting our own spin on things as we try to put something out in the world.
Jessica Hagy 28:34
I think I think that is one good thing to think about. And I think, the process of learning something, it's a new idea in your head, like there's an actual chemical reaction that's brand new, when you learn something, even if 100 People are sitting in a classroom, I don't think the idea will stick in everyone's brain in the same way. Right? That makes sense. Like if even on like a basic chemical level, your idea is your idea the way you've learned it with your memory and the whole thing, right? So fiddling with art is comforting in that respect, which is at least it came out of my brain after it went through the like diagnostic system of all my senses and things like
David Ames 29:15
one of the things I find interesting, or I attempt to do is to do what you've described to distill some idea into a sentence. And I actually find that another thing that Twitter is reasonably good at is forcing you to put an idea into it's the simplest form you can you only have certain number of characters. Unlike you, however, I can't do that on anything close to a daily basis, you are producing just a tremendous volume of work. It amazes me. So how do you keep How do you continually come up with these ideas?
Jessica Hagy 29:47
Part of its fun and part of it sort of the great spite driven capitalist machine, which is you have to prove yourself over and over again every day. And I'm sort of like I can and I will And then I just keep making things. And the more things I make, the easier it is to make them if if the habit forming function of that has any use. But yeah, I've been I've been drawing these little graphs and charts and now it's almost a secondary dialect for me.
David Ames 30:18
So I'm wondering if you would be willing, I, I know your book, How to be interesting is several years old. And I have to admit that I haven't actually read it. But the various summaries of it, it strikes me that your 10 steps are not only about how to be interesting, but they also somewhat answer the question how to have meaning in your life. Yeah, I wonder if you'd be game if we could talk through some of those and see how they apply to humanism?
Jessica Hagy 30:50
Oh, sure.
Yeah, that's a, that's a good notice. Thank you.
David Ames 30:55
I saw some summaries of the 10 steps. And then I've seen a couple of YouTube videos of you describing it. And I was just struck by how these 10 steps also force a person to consider what they find important in their life. So if we can't, we'll just go through some of them. So step one is go exploring. What does that mean to you, and then we'll talk about how we can apply it.
Jessica Hagy 31:19
I think so many times when people are feeling stuck, or bland or blah, they're not moving, and they're not letting themselves think about new things. And they're not letting themselves sort of go and find out. And it's it's that feeling of like, you've got a library card, you can open up anything you can you got Google, you can check anything out, you can go outside and watch people like, even going to a mall and watching people can become an artistic career if you're just if you just sketch. And that really was the first like, Well, what do interesting people do? And the answer is kind of something. It doesn't really matter what the something is, as long as you care about it and have a love for it and have a curiosity about it.
David Ames 32:03
For people, again, probably not my target audience who were former, let's say evangelicals, or fundamentalists in one way or another. One of the very exciting things is that some ideas, some some sources of information were off limits whether that was overt, overt or implied, that means they're valuable. Yeah, exactly. So this one again, really speaks to me of, you know, I just went through this voracious reading process. In the first couple of years of reading anything, I could get my hands on it. So this idea of exploring, not only physically going to different places, but also the exploration of ideas of things that might have been off limits at one point in time going, Yeah,
Jessica Hagy 32:45
I can take that even, like, even down a closer sliver, but in advertising, people would be like, well, I can't I don't have any ideas today just don't have any ideas. I'm just gonna read some of the annuals, like the advertising annuals of the award winning stuff. And it's like, you can't think about advertising. So you're gonna think about advertising some more like no, like, read something else, or like do talk to people who aren't in advertising and that just like the insularity of any organization, crew, religion, anything that builds that sort of sense of, Well, this is what we do, right? This is what we think about all the time. And there's so many wonderful, interesting people out there who don't know about what you do at all. And there were all the fun stuff is,
David Ames 33:30
this resonance is great. So I've talked a lot about this idea of being in a bubble. So when I was a believer, it was hermetically sealed, right? Everything was self referential and self reinforcing. And anything that wasn't self reinforcing, was rejected was thrown out of the bubble. And so this exact idea of you know, you're in this box, and the only way to get out of that box is to start looking outside of the box. And those ideas outside of the box will show you how small that box was.
Jessica Hagy 34:01
Yeah. And I think there, there are some people that you meet, and you're just like, how did you become that person? Like, how did you make a life for yourself? Like, cutting out paper puppets? Like, how did you become master? Like, what? Tell me how this happened? Or sometimes even just like, How did my accountant become an accountant? Like, how does this happen? How do these people find these things? And I mean, everybody has some sort of weird bubble that they're in or weird non bubble or, and then the bubbles collide. And you're just like, I can learn so much from this weird puppet master and this accountant and we should have dinner all the time.
David Ames 34:39
Yes. So the Step Two for how to be interesting and we're trying to apply it to finding meaning is the one that I really love is share what you discover. So we've done this exploration and now we should give it away.
Jessica Hagy 34:54
Oh, no, I think somehow I've segwayed right into that, but that's where your bubbles like meet each other and You're just like, did you know that? One of the crazy weird facts? And I think I found this on Twitter too, is that when you get scurvy and this is kind of gross, okay. Yeah. But when you get scurvy, one of the pieces, the main fundamentals of the vitamin A or C, or whatever it is that the lack of is scurvy. Every wound you've ever had reopens? I did not know that. Whoa, can you imagine? Like,
every
stubbed toe, every zit every, every little wound, like your body has that as a memory, and it's still encapsulated in you. And it's only held together by a lemon every now and
Unknown Speaker 35:43
I reading that I'm just like, Did you guys know? And people are like, no, but
Jessica Hagy 35:50
and then all of a sudden, like a weird conversation starts happening about like, well, I did this. And did you know that this happens. And one thing that happens when you get a tattoo is that tattooing is in your lymph nodes forever. And just like conversations that way? Yeah. But the conversations that you end up having eventually did become really personal. And really sort of I learned this or I felt this one way, just by talking about random information. Yeah, if that makes sense, like small talk can get big fast.
David Ames 36:19
It totally does. Again, I'm sorry to keep being self referential here. But this podcast, I often am interviewing people who have gone through a similar faith transition into myself. And there's many, many commonalities, but there's always something unique. There's always some special twists that their particular story has. And I find that the telling of one story is this super cathartic experience. The other thing I've learned through this process is people want to tell their story. So when you just ask them, what's your story, they just explode and begin telling their story. That
Jessica Hagy 36:57
that is really true. And one of the things about I that I got asked a lot, when How to Be interesting came out was, well, what do you do if you're shy? And you don't want to meet people like, well, one, you don't have to be outgoing to be extremely fascinating. And the other thing is, if you want to be interesting, no more things. And the easiest way to do that is just ask somebody else about themselves, and people will tell you.
David Ames 37:19
Alright, so step three is do something, anything?
Jessica Hagy 37:24
Yeah, I think that idea that you have to be really good at anything, is a bad place to start, because nobody's really good at anything when they first start doing it. Right. And so there's the idea that if you just keep keep on practicing, or keep practicing, you'll become an expert and able to help other people do it, or you'll become really knowledgeable in one thing, and you will develop a love for what you're good at by actually doing something you're bad at if that, if that lines up.
David Ames 37:57
I had to definitely like get over. Like, you know, I know what a really good podcast sounds like a really well produced one. Yeah, this is not it. I have to get over myself of you know, it's not going to be perfect. But I can I can do it this well. So I'm just gonna do it and see if anybody's interested. And it turns out, yeah, there's a few people. Gosh, what
Jessica Hagy 38:18
was it there was this beautiful thing that was on, there's a YouTube video that has 4 million hits of how to open a can. Somebody needs what you somebody needs your information, like put it out there, like just do it. Like just, you'd be amazed, like, people will find you. And it's so cool.
David Ames 38:38
To tie back real quick to step two, one of the things I often encourage people to do is write down their story, you know, they don't have to put it on a blog if they don't want to or something, but just write down the experience that they have gone through. And you can do you can apply that to anything, you know, you've had a great vacation, write it down for posterity, so that five years from now you can look back and say, Hey, that was a really good vacation. So again, your step is do anything, something about just the act of creating of doing something is just a really positive thing.
Jessica Hagy 39:09
Yeah. And it's the idea of an exercise. So physical exercise, mental exercise, artistic exercise, social exercise, like there is a strengthening that happens, the more the more it's done, or just the act of doing it and saying, You know what, I went for a run. Am I a runner? Now? I painted a picture. Am I a painter now? And it's like, Yeah, take that and run with that. Go. Do it again.
David Ames 39:35
Yes. Your fourth step is embrace your weirdness.
Jessica Hagy 39:39
Yeah, I mean, the whole idea of if you're going to be interesting, you have to have some prickly part that stands out on the sphere. That is your identity, like, there has to be a hook or an angle of you that is slightly different. And people's idea of what is slightly different is amazing. So like you're like in your head past life, standing out in one way, or asking one weird question could define you forever. And that would be, that would be the, the weird part of you that you'd be known as, and you know what that's dig into that, like, see where that takes you, because that's something other people have noticed is already off about you. And not off in a negative way, just often, uh, not exactly the same as everyone else.
David Ames 40:27
So two things I want to say about that one as it applies to, again, deconversion when you're in in that bubble, people begin to feel shame. They feel like, there's something wrong with me because I'm different, right? Or why can't I fit in? Why can't I go along with everyone else seems convinced by this, but I'm asking these questions, and you know, what's wrong with me? Embrace that move on. Go with it, let it
Jessica Hagy 40:51
it's not, it's too because our entire culture is all about, like, icons. And people who do one amazing thing and people who stand out and are amazing. And also at the same time, like, absolutely encourages conformity so much. And it's just like, look, it's going to be that loop. And you're either going to fit in precisely at all times everywhere. And that will stress you fuck out for the rest of your life, because it's impossible. Or you might as well just run with the thing that is a little bit. Not exactly like everybody else. And you'll get credit for it.
David Ames 41:26
And we don't remember people who conformed.
Jessica Hagy 41:30
No, and if we do remember them, it's because there are a lot of them, and they frighten us like Children of the Corn style.
David Ames 41:38
Your step five is have a cause.
Jessica Hagy 41:42
Yes, you've got to believe in something bigger than yourself. You can't be it's just you being like, I'm going to be the best at this, this and this, you're not because you're not doing something that actually matters. And once you find something that actually matters, then one, you don't have the excuse that you can give up on yourself because it's bigger than you. And two, it actually we'll be bigger than you because it's not all wrapped up in just you.
David Ames 42:12
This one I think is really pertinent for this idea of meaning, again, as you come out from having this prepackaged idea of what your purpose in life is to suddenly realizing I have to figure out what my purpose in life is. That's incredibly freeing, but it's also terrifying, right?
Jessica Hagy 42:33
The big feelings are also are good and bad at the same time.
David Ames 42:36
Yeah. So this idea for me for a cause I recognize, hey, I can use I can repackage these, the skill set of connecting with people talking with them. empathetic, I can repackage that and I can, it's just a different audience now. Now it's an audience of people who are leaving their religions in the middle of it. But again, I encourage people just it doesn't have to be that it can be anything you can find what you're passionate about what you're interested in and go after it.
Jessica Hagy 43:03
Yeah, I mean, people build lives around amazing things, their entire societies about foraging for mushrooms around here, I'm in, I'm out in Seattle, and the people who are experts in that are experts in literally life and death because you can get a bad one and like your livers gone in an hour. Yeah. Or they're just the details and the like the passion for foraging for mushrooms. Maybe they will save the world or maybe dog rescue will save the world or Gosh, what's that weird parable where the guy's walking down the beach after the storm when all the starfish are out there? Oh, I'm not sure I know. Like all these all these dying starfish went up and he starts pitching them into the sea. And this other guy walks by and goes well, you can't see him all the guys like when I say this one. Yeah. And like, it's such a like, hokey little Hallmark story. Doesn't get me every time because it's like, yeah, just do my one thing that like, feels good to do it. And you did something good. So
David Ames 44:07
yeah, you don't have to be limited by perfection. Do do what you can do.
Jessica Hagy 44:13
Well, nobody's ever been perfect. So
David Ames 44:17
your Step six is minimize the swagger.
Jessica Hagy 44:21
Yeah, I think the one thing that everybody I've ever met who's really really wonderfully interesting is not me, me, me I did all this. It's more like this is a cool thing. And the cool thing is a big umbrella for other people to go into. And therefore they're not off putting and they get to do more things because they have more they attract more friends and fun stuff and the whole bit of it and the self reference before action all the time will just hold you back like what if people see me or what if this or what I'm that or anything and it takes the fun out of so much.
David Ames 44:58
I talked about epistemic humility that, who it's this sense of, I already know things that limits you from learning new stuff. So when you embrace the fact that you are an ignorant, limited human being, and there's this vast array of things to learn it, so if you can start with, I don't know, and I want to, there's all these things that you can go explore and learn.
Jessica Hagy 45:25
Oh, yeah, it or that you've met those people who are like, Don't you know who I am? Or what is this? And they are not fun. They're not going to be like, well, let's go find out or what is that? Or they're not going to ask any questions.
David Ames 45:40
So again, I think this one applies to some of the negative aspects of the atheist community in that some of the off putting nature of that is that it is about intellectual dominance. Oh, yeah. I'm the smartest person in the room and bow down to me kind of thing and it isn't appealing.
Jessica Hagy 45:58
And it's so dead ended. It's an absolute dead end of just like, Well, I figured this out. Well, then. Okay, move on. You have nothing to talk about.
David Ames 46:09
Let's see, Step seven is give it a shot.
Jessica Hagy 46:13
Yeah, I think that is that really is the willingness to try things. And that's the whole guy's got 4 million hits on a can opener, like, go for it. And the worst thing that can really happen is that you don't do anything. And then you're sitting in your chair like, well, I don't I have anything to do. And just like, because you didn't do anything in the first place. Yeah, you might as well just take a job, like, not even a big one. Just something.
David Ames 46:39
Yeah. And sometimes just realizing that, you know, if you attempt something, the worst thing is that the worst possible outcome could be that it fails. You've learned something.
Jessica Hagy 46:49
Yeah. You've learned how not to fail in that. Exactly. And that's exactly
David Ames 46:54
my work. It happens to be in technology. And it is a humbling process. It is mostly did this thing work. Now, did this thing work? No. It is a iterative process of failure to figure out what the right solution is to something. And yeah, that if you were hung up on making a mistake, you would be frozen in inability to do anything. Oh, that's
Jessica Hagy 47:19
yes, I have a so I have a six year old and getting him to draw things. At first was really hard until I was like, it's just art. It's just paper, you make one and then you make the next one different. And he's like, Oh, he's like, it's all practice. Like, it's all practice all of it. Like, there's no final and he's just like, okay, and now he draws like crazy monsters have weird things and cuts up snowflakes. And because it's all practice, and just kind of thinking of that iteratively like that, but it's so freeing, because it's not failure, then if it's just, we're gonna figure out something else. And we'll just keep going.
David Ames 47:56
Absolutely. Number eight is hop off the bandwagon.
Jessica Hagy 48:02
Yeah, I mean, this talks, probably the most directly
David Ames 48:06
to you. Yes.
Jessica Hagy 48:08
And I think to once, if everyone's like, I have to be this exact person, this, I have to be fashionable in this certain way. These are the hot topics, these are the hot things, then you're never going to become the mushroom hunting extraordinaire, that you are destined to be the very fashionable things that all your friends or everyone's told you to do. And if you look at just the billions of things that you could spend your life really investigating, none of them are trendy, none of them for long. And you might as well do what is actually fun and interesting to you. And it doesn't have to be what everybody else is super into.
David Ames 48:51
Absolutely. And the beauty of the internet these days is that if you have some niche interest, there's probably 100 200 people out there who are interested in that.
Jessica Hagy 49:03
And they probably have like extraordinarily good like group chats that can be like I found this weird problem. Can you help me with it? And they're like, yeah, like my father in law is into vintage tractors. And the vintage tractor repair community is intense and tightly knit and they know some really cool stuff. Just like oh, well, that's how you rebuild the ball bearing setting or whatever it is. On a 1949 This kind of tractor and I'm just
David Ames 49:32
wow. Yes, that's awesome. That's awesome. For sure. This one applies to the target audience here. You know, you're going with the flow, you're going with what everyone thinks so to speak, and you're in your bubble. And it is that moment of what does it look like if I if I hop off bandwagon where the revelation of reality kind of hits you. So Step nine, is of direct one grow a pair?
Jessica Hagy 49:57
Yeah. I mean, a pair of whatever you've got or whatever. To me personally, yeah, but that is really that's just stand up for for yourself. Like don't don't let yourself be steamrolled. Just be assertive about what you care about and what you need. And don't let the world abuse you.
David Ames 50:16
So again, this kind of going back to taking risks and recognizing that each person has something unique to share with the world, and that's valuable.
Jessica Hagy 50:25
100% and because of the, there's the drive for conformity, and stay in line and know your place, and don't be insubordinate, don't be superior, don't be anything, just be invisible, seen and not heard until you're 110. But the idea that everybody does have a little bit of something that comes in handy is how civilization happens, right? Yes. If everyone just like sat and like plowed the field, well, who's gonna harvest it? Where's the food coming from? Where's the water? How did the house get put up? Where's the fire, like, everybody has different jobs, even if you just break it down to very primitive needs.
David Ames 51:05
The last one is kind of related is ignore the skulls.
Jessica Hagy 51:10
Yes, I think every kid that's ever been a little bit odd or a little bit interesting or artistic or curious or precocious or not good at something enough is going to get scolded into conforming and abandoning whatever it is that they love. There's a book called orbiting the giant hairball, by a guy who used to, I think it was Hallmark. And he drew greeting cards and things. And he would go into classrooms and teach kids art. And he would ask the first graders, how many of you are artists? And they'd all raise your hands. Yeah. And if you went into like, the seventh grade and say, How many of you are artists? And you might get one like, half raise hands, right? Like, what the heck happened? That, that is how we are that we beat artistic stuff out of kids. And if we're beating artistic things out of kids, what other interesting skills have we just smoothed out by the time they're not even to puberty? Right. And that's just an unlearning how to be well behaved is tough.
David Ames 52:21
Well, and again, this one applies pretty directly to the target audience hear of you will have your detract detractors, when you come out to say that I no longer believe you will definitely get people who are not going to be very happy about that. And to tell you why you're wrong. Yeah. And it's very important to realize that, you know, to kind of expect that that's going to happen and to be prepared for it and to recognize that you can stand your ground, and you don't deserve abuse, you know, you can say no to people, and you can shut them out if you need to. So,
Jessica Hagy 52:54
yeah, any any self assertion will probably be met with some pushback of any kind. I, I believe in this No, well, I love these people. No, I want this No, like you're and if you just listen to all the knows you'll, you'll live in denial about everything in your life. All the little brain chemicals will just be like, but I have ideas,
David Ames 53:19
then you'll never get off to step one to just starting go exploring. Just wanted to say a story for just totally reinventing your work there.
Jessica Hagy 53:29
No, I think that's beautiful that I really liked that that book can apply entirely to how to out yourself as a free thinker. Like that's, that's beautiful,
David Ames 53:39
and find meaning in life. Is there a question that I haven't asked, is there something that you'd like to share that, that I haven't prompted? Well,
Unknown Speaker 53:48
oh, gosh, no, but I was always I always wonder about
Jessica Hagy 53:52
other people, and how they came to sort of thinking about how they come to think and what was like, was there like an absolute moment you had?
David Ames 53:59
I have somebody that I have interviewed on the show, and a guy named Matthew Taylor, and he said it beautifully. He said that I suddenly realized I no longer believed and the suddenly refers to my realization, not the process. The process took years. Yeah. Wow. And another way of describing it is kind of a phase transition. Right? So all these things are bubbling under the surface, these little changes, you're getting bumped by ideas and other thinkers that are nudging you around and then and then there's this precipice moment and which, for me, personally, it was very sudden, for me it was, oh shit, I don't believe anymore. Like, I literally had that moment in time. For other people that's very slow drudging doubt that just, you know, claws out them for years upon and so, as we've discussed, people are unique. They have a different experience. Mine was slowly allowing secular right and thinkers to kind of explore. And I have the this idea, hey, my faith is so strong that it'll stand up to scrutiny. Spoiler alert, it did not. So when I took seriously the questions of a secular thinkers, and what is sometimes called the outsider test for faith and looking at my particular faith from a perspective of even another branch of Christianity, I looked at Mormonism briefly. And I thought, well, this is crazy. Oh, they think I'm crazy. Oh, yeah. That was another kind of chink in the wall. And it's definitely incremental. But that realization can be very sudden.
Jessica Hagy 55:41
Wow, that's amazing.
David Ames 55:44
Good question.
Jessica Hagy 55:45
Well, congratulations on getting through all that. Because anytime you grapple with anything that changes like who you are identity wise. God, that's so huge.
David Ames 55:56
It is kind of a big deal. Yeah. I'm continually amazed the people that I interview their stories, I had a pretty easy, right, I live in a relatively liberal area. And but people like you know, in the Bible Belt, where the entire culture is centered around Christianity, and for those people who come out. It's an entirely different experience. And I'm just profoundly humbled at their bravery, their ability to be true to themselves.
Jessica Hagy 56:24
Yeah, that is, wow, that's just a deep, a deep, heavy thing to carry.
David Ames 56:29
Yes. So the book we've been discussing is the humanist devotional, we've also discussed how to be interesting. You've also done a book on the art of war. How can people get in touch with you? How can they get in touch with your work? How can they find you?
Jessica Hagy 56:45
You can find me at Jessica Hagy dot info that has links to most of my things, or they can find me how you found me on Twitter. I'm just at Jesse Nagy. And if you Google index, you'll probably find me pretty easily too.
David Ames 56:58
Absolutely. And I recommend the Twitter account, because you get almost daily, I think it's daily new infographic almost every day.
Jessica Hagy 57:06
Yeah. Because now that RSS is dead, or went out. You better post your stuff everywhere. So that's my hub.
David Ames 57:16
Jessica, thank you so much for sharing your time and your artwork with us.
Jessica Hagy 57:20
Thank you so much for talking.
David Ames 57:28
Final thoughts on the episode. Again, I just want to apologize for being mansplaining. And for recontextualizing, or reinterpreting Jessica's book, How to be interesting. It is an incredible book on its own. Under her original point of how a person can be interesting. I found it interesting that it did apply to how to find meaning in one's life as a humanist. So I think it worked in both ways. But again, my apologies to Jessica. Jessica is amazing. And her artwork is amazing. And the just raw intelligence that comes across in her work is something to behold, please go buy her books, and check out her blog at this is index.com. The humanist devotional is a beautiful thing, you should definitely go by that, as well as her book, How to be interesting. I particularly loved her analogy of the library card. So instead of just rejecting the Bible, her argument is that there are so much more wisdom to be found out in the world, so much more knowledge to be gained. In all of the great literature and science. All of the books that are in the libraries of the world are worth reading, and that information is worth gathering. The library card is a wonderful metaphor for gaining the new knowledge when you come out of the bubble, you are suddenly free to go explore ideas to go learn new information, and read and experience sources that were off limits before. And that is an incredible freedom. I am very jealous of Jessica that she was able to have that experience from a very young age and she was so wise and mature to recognize that early. I also really appreciate Jessica's admiration for the stories of regular people that she says at one point that small talk can get big fast. So just going out and talking to people and having them tell their stories is a profound experience. And for those of us who have D converted telling our deconversion stories is a cathartic experience. But reach out to the people around you and ask them to tell you their stories that both will be an experience for you And a profound thing for the person who gets to tell their story. That is the secular Grace Thought of the Week. Again, I want to thank Jessica Hagy for being on the show. By we'll have links in the show notes for her books and her blog, as well as her social media contacts. Until next time, I am David and I am trying to be the graceful atheist please join me in being graceful human.
Time for some footnotes. The song has a track called waves by mkhaya beats, please check out her music links will be in the show notes. If you'd like to help support the podcast, here are the ways you can go about that. First help promote it. Podcast audience grows it by word of mouth. If you found it useful or just entertaining, please pass it on to your friends and family. post about it on social media so that others can find it. Please rate and review the podcast wherever you get your podcasts. This will help raise the visibility of our show. Join me on the podcast. Tell your story. Have you gone through a faith transition? You want to tell that to the world? Let me know and let's have you on? Do you know someone who needs to tell their story? Let them know. Do you have criticisms about atheism or humanism, but you're willing to have an honesty contest with me? Come on the show. If you have a book or a blog that you want to promote, I'd like to hear from you. Also, you can contribute technical support. If you are good at graphic design, sound engineering or marketing? Please let me know and I'll let you know how you can participate. And finally financial support. There will be a link on the show notes to allow contributions which would help defray the cost of producing the show. If you want to get in touch with me you can google graceful atheist where you can send email to graceful atheist@gmail.com You can tweet at me at graceful atheist or you can just check out my website at graceful atheists.wordpress.com Get in touch and let me know if you appreciate the podcast. Well this has been the graceful atheist podcast My name is David and I am trying to be the graceful atheists. Grab somebody you love and tell them how much they mean to you.
This has been the graceful atheist podcast
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
My guest today is Andrew Knight. Andrew is the host of the Still Unbelievable podcast and co-host of the Ask an Atheist Anything podcast. He is a contributing author to the book Still Unbelievable. Andrew has been a Recovering From Religion peer support agent helping others through their questioning. He promotes the message:
Let’s talk about human problems from a human perspective. Human problems have human solutions.
Andrew states flatly the faith tradition he was raised in, Church of Christ, is a cult. After attending bible college and working for an apologetics publishing company he began to be disillusioned with apologetics. He came to recognize the foundational claims of Christianity were not true. Andrew takes it a step further, even if the miracles of the bible were true this would not be proof of the core claims of Christianity: an infinite, all knowing, all powerful god.
My conversation with Andrew is wide ranging as we cover his deconversion story and the work he now does. He talks about his disfellowship from the Church of Christ. He describes the difficulty in telling a friend who turned out to be going through the same deconversion process. We talk about deconverts being the most dangerous counter-apologetic of all.
Truth is a process of successive approximations
Andrew’s friend Sean
Changing the notion of truth to something that can be investigated and that we can get better at.
Note: Both the Still Unbelievable book and podcast are responses to Justin Brierley’s Unbelievable podcast and book. Justin’s podcast brings atheists and theists together for debate. Justin is considered an honest moderator. His book’s subtitle is Why After Ten Years of Talking with Atheists, I’m Still a Christian. Matthew’s and his colleagues’ responses take aim at those reasons.
My guest today is Matthew Taylor. Matthew is the host of the Ask an Atheist Anything podcast and the co-host of the Still Unbelievable podcast. He is the primary editor and contributing author of the book Still Unbelievable. His blog is entitled Confessions of a Young Earth Creationist.
Matthew’s deconversion story includes growing up in the mission fields in Zambia, a young Earth creationist education, the divorce of his parents and dramatic spiritual experiences. Friends began to challenge his rejection of evolution and podcasts began to give him natural explanations for his spiritual experiences. He began to be disappointed in the apologetic arguments as compared to scientific explanations.
Deconversion was challenging and Matthew took a long time to tell his wife of his loss of faith. Matthew wants to help others through the deconversion process. He recognizes that it is a lonely process and that what we need most is another human being who has been through it too.
“Suddenly I realized I could no longer be a Christian. The suddenly doesn’t describe my journey, the suddenly describes my awareness.”
“This [deconversion] process hurts”
“If I am there when you deconvert, my response is not ‘hallelujah,’ my response is ‘How are you? Do you need a hug? Do you need a friend?'”
“I want to stand up to inaccuracy, against things that are untrue”
Note: Both the Still Unbelievable book and podcast are responses to Justin Brierley’s Unbelievable podcast and book. Justin’s podcast brings atheists and theists together for debate. Justin is considered an honest moderator. His book’s subtitle is Why After Ten Years of Talking with Atheists, I’m Still a Christian. Matthew’s and his colleagues’ responses take aim at those reasons.
My guest today is Jennifer Michael Hecht. Jennifer is a poet, an author, an award winning academic and an intellectual historian. She has written numerous books from a secular perspective. I asked Jennifer to come on the show to discuss her book Doubt: A History and its profound effect on me post-deconversion. She is one of my intellectual heroes.
It is hard to express how much this book has influenced other secular writers and thinkers. This book has strongly influenced my other two favorite books Greg Epstein’s Good Without God and Katherine Ozment’s Grace Without God. Both of which quote Doubt throughout.
Jennifer proved to be as profound a thinker as her reputation makes her out to be. It was my privilege to attempt to keep up with her in this interview.
I am indebted to Jennifer for coining the term “graceful life philosophy.” My concept of Secular Grace is an attempt to live a graceful life philosophy.
Great believers and great doubters seem like opposites, but they are more similar to each other than to the mass of relatively disinterested or acquiescent men and women. This is because they are both awake to the fact that we live between two divergent realities: On one side, there is a world in our heads— and in our lives, so long as we are not contradicted by death and disaster— and that is a world of reason and plans, love, and purpose. On the other side, there is the world beyond our human life—an equally real world in which there is no sign of caring or value, planning or judgment, love, or joy. We live in a meaning-rupture because we are human and the universe is not.
NOTE: This transcript is AI produced (otter.ai) and likely has many mistakes. It is provided as rough guide to the audio conversation.
David Ames 0:11
This is the graceful atheist podcast Welcome welcome. Welcome to the graceful atheist podcast. My name is David and I am trying to be the graceful atheist. If you've ever thought to yourself, I really want to hear David be less graceful and more mean and catty. Well then I have a podcast recommendation other than my own. I'd like to recommend the deconversion therapy podcast the hosts Karen and Bonnie ticket comedic look at the deconversion process and in particular the silliness of evangelical life. They're often read listener submitted stories and so I submitted a story from my experience as a youth pastor back in the 90s. If you want to hear my story about attempting to be a hip, young, long haired youth pastor in the 90s, check out the May 9 episode of The deconversion therapy podcast on today's show. My guest today is one of my intellectual heroes. One of the great things about doing this podcast is getting to interview people whose work has had a profound impact on my thinking, and deconversion. My guest, Jennifer Michael Hecht is a poet, a historian and a commentator, and author of numerous books. And she literally wrote the book on doubt. She's also an award winning academic, she wrote the end of the soul scientific modernity, atheism and anthropology. Her current book is called stay a history of suicide and the arguments against it. It's a secular argument against suicide. But I asked Jennifer to be on the podcast to talk about her 2004 book doubt, a history and its profound impact on my thinking, post deconversion. There are three books that have had a major impact on my thinking. Catherine cosmonauts Grace without God, Greg Epstein's good without God. And Jennifer Michael Hecht's doubt a history. All three of these books have been important for different reasons. Jennifer's doubt a history really helped me understand the intellectual history that we inherit as secular people. I highly recommend this book for anyone who is going through either deconstruction or deconversion to help ground yourself in the history of others who have doubted before you. It is amazingly comforting to realize that not only are my doubts not particularly original for today, my doubts are not particularly original for 2500 years ago, and that is the kind of context that a book like doubt a history can give you. As you will hear Jennifer and I talk about how old these questions are and that humanity has been wrestling with the concept of doubt and belief. For most of our history. The book is a crash course in philosophy, ethics and religious thought. It encompasses multiple millennia, and circumnavigates the globe, including cultures from around the world. What could be a dry and potentially boring subject I found riveting. Page after page I came face to face with my own ignorance and the wisdom of humanity. Over the centuries. Jennifer has written a book that contextualizes the modern moment of secularization in the West. And for that she is my intellectual hero. And now I give you Jennifer Michael Hecht.
Jennifer Michael Hecht, welcome to the graceful atheist podcast.
Jennifer Michael Hecht 3:58
Thanks so much. Glad to be here.
David Ames 4:00
Jennifer, you're a poet, you're an author, you have a PhD in History of Science, you're called an intellectual historian. And you've literally written the book on doubt. I want to just give a quick moment for you to talk about some of your current work I understand your previous book was called stay history of suicide and a secular argument against it. And that you're working on a current book now, the wonder paradox, a guide to using poetry to find meaning in folk ah, and rest in some clarity of mind.
Jennifer Michael Hecht 4:33
Yeah, we're still working on the subtitle on that one. But yeah, paradox is what I'm working on now. And, and yeah, the The truth is that the books are very different, but in a lot of ways they do all cohere around the question of how people live it outside of religion, or having moved on from it or not. having, you know, come into their own in a culture that isn't, that doesn't find it as their focal point. And there's all different ways that people have structured meaning the, the modern sense that, that without religion, you don't have a lot of these things is very temporally local. It's a very, it's a very momentary and historically specific experience. And so when I start looking outside the present moment, to see how people deal with certain kinds of things that we associate with religion, I always find a wealth of, of ideas and lives lived generations lived under different conceptions of, of all these types of religious ideas. So the Wonder paradox right now is, is a direct response with poetry, seeing how how ritual and wise words that sound good and feel good and that you've returned to have influenced people's lives outside of religion within religion, but without belief with religion with belief, but without all sorts of other kinds of configurations. And as you said, the the anti-suicide book stay was really an investigation into how people who weren't going to just answer that question with God says know, how they respond to what it could mean to to each other and to ourselves to to ask questions about whether it was morally straightforward. Whether or not you could take your own life.
David Ames 6:44
Right. Right. I think that's an important book for our time as the as we see a movement of secularization. Yeah. And suicide is always an ever present danger. So yeah, I terrible podcast hosts, I have not yet written those. That book, I plan to read it very shortly. You've graciously come on the podcast to talk about a book that you wrote in, it's 2003. Right? It's a long, long time back. I appreciate you taking that time. One of the selfish goals of the podcast for me is to just become a little less ignorant. And just to TSF, a little bit, I've read your book, doubt a history a couple of years after my deconversion. And I just found it so profoundly important. And mainly because of my own ignorance. I came from an evangelical background where my ignorance of history and in particular, secular history, philosophy, philosophical history, was just profound. And on top of that, to make matters worse, there's this sense of hubris like, you know, well, I probably I understand these things already. And then even going through the deconversion process, oh, I have these original experiences, it must just be me. And reading through the book was not only recognizing my ideas are not particularly original for today, they are not particularly original for 2500 years ago. And I find like this is just a really useful thing for people to to be grounded in to recognize our place in history. Before we jump into some of the specifics of the book, would you like to tell us about your particular spiritual or faith journey? Where are you at? Where did where was your background growing up?
Jennifer Michael Hecht 8:37
My background growing up was a, I was raised, you know, Jewish household we were practicing. But what's called conservative Judaism at the time, all the names have sort of shifted a little bit, but my dad's a physicist, and so he didn't believe, but also came from the same world of Brooklyn, Jews, second generation. And so third generation in some cases. And so, I grew up on Long Island and in around New York City, so I do a lot of Catholic kids, and I suppose more than you would in the middle of the country. But yeah, for me, the my personal history of secularism, so I decided that that is I came to my own understanding that there is no god or anything supernatural at about age 12. I mean, I know I was age 12. And it did hurt at first. But, but not for that long. It really was literature though. It took me a while to realize that's what it was but this beautiful quote, by Rainer Maria Rilke saying, to live the questions. Mm. like that, we can't come to the answers that even if the answers were handed to you now, you couldn't, you couldn't really know them not only couldn't really know that you couldn't know them at all, he compares them to to, you know, wisdom in a language in a book in a language you don't understand. And the book is worth something, but you really can't understand it yet. And to me, at 12, it was a revelation that, that you could live the questions that you could, that you didn't have to believe, now that there were no answers, because what you thought of as the source of answers previously, no longer holds, holds good. The idea that wisdom is indeed something that you have to work through both in living and through a long process of learning. That was very emancipatory, for me that that meant that whatever I couldn't figure out now was not a closed door. On the other hand, I? Well, I was gonna say that I've had a pretty solid sense of what I thought in terms of believability, the notion that there that I could conduct my metaphysical investigations the same way I conduct my life investigation, so no evidence, really no reason to tolerate the proposition. Right. Right. And, and that worked, okay. But, again, one grows and one learns. So Buddhism became something that was very fascinating to me to figure out, to what extent millions upon millions of people across, you know, 10s, of hundreds of generations were living without supernatural ideas. And what what you find is that it's a little divided. So there's Theravada Buddhism, where you really do strict, strictly state without supernaturalism Mahayana Buddhism, which, as I explained in doubt, they come to the idea that you could believe in the weird and absurd and unprovable through a kind of rational progression, about what you can't know. And when rationalism gets to its edges, where it breaks down a little bit, there are paradoxical problems with being a human being trying to understand the world. Right? Not problems anyone can get anywhere past. And so some, some of the, the Buddhist world also goes into this world of irrationalism, on the good faith of so the world's irrational. But yeah, again, also looking, looking into Confucianism, how much how much of the non supernatural, non theistic religion that is essentially set out there was influenced by local customs and religions that were superstitious, right. And what I found was a tremendous amount of people all over the place throughout all different periods of times, specifically banishing the supernatural, and saying, well, then what do we make of life without it? So for me, I processed through taking on certain amounts of all these different religions to the point where I am now, I have a great deal of respect for all of them, and also a great deal of concern about how much how much everyone who talks about these different religions, is promoting their own point of view. And so we have to be, we can't say that they really are atheistic, because atheism as we understand it now, is very historically specific to this moment. I rambled a bit, but I personally came from a position until 12. I believed to some degree, then I stopped and was a pretty standard kind of atheist very scientistic. Until Yeah, I guess at Columbia, doing my PhD in history and reading about different cultures, atheists, cultures, in history, and finding out just beginning to get the sense that there was more to be understood there and coming to understand that instead of scientism, I really find more truth in what I'll call poetic realism, right? A commitment to realism, but with an understanding that there's more truth in some of the connections we glean through beauty and feeling and surmise. And so that lands me in a rather odd place.
David Ames 15:00
Well, I think I can identify, I think one of the things that I tried to talk about on this show is that we are human beings and not Vulcans. And one aspect of the modern version of atheism is kind of a pure rationality, that kind of tries to ignore the three dimensionality of human beings. We are emotional, we are whatever you want to term spiritual, for lack of a better term, right? We have, we have these feelings, these things are important. And so I was familiar with your concept of, of poetic atheism. And I think that's a really good way of putting it. So
Jennifer Michael Hecht 15:36
yeah, I've sort of moved to calling as to saying poetic realism. In the same breath, I think quite a gazhams. Important still, because I personally think it's important in this moment in America. And it started with Bush, I remember telling interviewer as well, I wanted to, I wanted to use very neutral words, so as to not stop conversation before it started, right. But but as the evangelical started rising up, I started to feel like well, if I'm appreciating other people coming out and saying the word atheist, then I'm going to do it too. And I still have no problem with it whatsoever. And I also think it's important that I keep saying it, but it is. It's just a word that is first of all negative as so many of our words are, and also hung up on Abrahamic theism. The idea of one God, the the Judeo Christian education that everyone in the West receives tilts towards the notion that monotheism and theism itself is a very ordinary aspect, a very ordinary way for human thought to go and it isn't, it just isn't the way they argued it without the evidence was to say that everyone else was primitive, and they were headed there. Right. And that is patently absurd now. But it's what a lot of our whole subconscious notion of what standard normal human religion is. So saying you're an atheist is ignore is sort of separating yourself from all these people who didn't believe in God without having ever heard of them without having ever entertained the notion of an afterlife. And so, realism is a terrifically complicated word you, right, everyone thinks they're being realistic. But still, I felt that it was it was intelligible enough. So I tend to use them both both phrases, that I'm a poetic realist come up poetic atheists to make the point of the atheism but also to, to open it up and ask, well, you know, in what traditions this all falls in?
David Ames 17:57
Yes, I again, relate a lot to that I could very easily use the moniker graceful humanists, but I keep graceful atheists, because I think it's important to be out and allow to help others to come to that as well. But my focus is very much about humanism, and how do we connect with one another and live life? Well. I do want to circle back really quickly. The title of the book is doubt a history and not necessarily atheism history. I understand that it's somewhat of a historical accident. But I find that it's a a serendipitous one, I believe that the word doubt is so evocative. And, you know, doubt leads to questioning and questioning leads us maybe in circles, but eventually to some truth. evokes, in me the idea of somebody who has skin in the game, the doubt or cares about? Yeah. Tell me about your conception of doubt. And what led you to want to research it?
Jennifer Michael Hecht 18:56
Yeah, exactly. You reminded me that in the Introduction to Data, I say the the, the strong believer in the strong atheist in a way have more in common than the great mass of people who don't think about these rights. Yeah, who are sort of hypnotized by, by life enough, my daily life enough to and the concerns that you see in daily life and television and commercials that, that world, that world, you know, it would be hard to argue against it if it went on forever, and it was always happy. But it doesn't tend to serve people that well. And even if it does, it ends and it ends for other people in your life before it ends for you. That is if you try to ignore the situation we're in, it will come crashing in and the if you're not familiar with it, it will destroy you. So we have always known or from the beginning of human records that that we try to prepare ourselves a little bit with by remembering the pain that how happened in the past. And by putting it into some kind of conceptual structure. Yeah, everybody. It doesn't last very long periods of history where people aren't trying to figure out the best way to live, we are living in a very strange, multifocal moment and and that really just means we have to do that extra little bit of work of looking for the material that will save us. In some periods in time, it's handed to you in a little bit more of a coherent way, even at the worst. But we're in a very, very complicated moment, because we've just human beings from different local contained groups have never been able to speak to each other the way they can't today. And so we're all overwhelmed with choice.
David Ames 20:53
It's an information dealers, and half of the problem with the internet is not necessarily finding something to learn, but rather to figure out which things are true. Right filtering processes, the new chat, the modern challenge, that's also
Jennifer Michael Hecht 21:11
you know, that depth of knowledge. So, as you were saying before, the notion that look, I, I can see the world, I'm smart, I talk to people every day who seem like they know less than I do. So I probably have a pretty good handle on this. And then to, yeah, what's located in doubt, and of course, there's a million things I left out of that giant. To see that. If you look for this stuff through history, you will be surprised at every turn. I already had a PhD in history, I had been teaching Western Civ and world history and then history of medicine for years already, when I started to write down, I thought I knew the story. I thought I had picked up as I went along, reading all sorts of history, little stories of atheists and religious doubters, everywhere I looked. Yeah. And yet, when I looked at any overall survey of history, or even of any period, or place, the atheists were gone. And people were still there, but they were being celebrated for other things they did. And if you were only an atheist, you only showed up if if, you know, if you if the big movement came up against you. So they were there, they were still the names were still in the books. But to a remarkable degree. Only when I looked up real close, when some historian had looked closely at a little period, they didn't find it. They didn't leave out the atheist. So I knew about them. I also thought of certain periods of time in certain places as being totally, totally encompassed by religion. But I thought I would just sort of put a sign Here Be Dragons and and we go back to you know, the civilized places where there was culture and sophistication. So like I said, I was already a historian, I had already co authored a Western Civ textbook I, and I thought I had the material. When I brought up the proposal, I had the material laid out. But when I went and did the research, the wealth of personalities and ideas and different takes on things, ideas that seemed like they had to be modern, that showed up in medieval Spain that showed up in Syria, I mean, that, that real color, real flavor, really understanding the ways that different people process these, these ideas about life that are in religion and outside religion. I mean, it certainly blew my mind to the point where I saw that I wasn't writing a story that was a minor story within the larger story of history. I was rather, again, a metaphor I use in in the preface to the book or the introduction. That was it was like looking at a map upside down. It was the same story I learned, but celebrating the times of confusion, which are actually times when people are asking questions and people are suggesting different answers. And people are tolerating the possibility of several answers without a desperate need to pick one and march with it. Those incredibly sophisticated, complex, distressing periods, they tend to make us feel a little ill at ease when we live in them, which makes us write literature which means we have we have the record. And so there, there was just a tremendous The amount of stuff that even as a historian who cared about these things, until I did the research, and really looked up close, I didn't know and was quite astounded, and quite, in some ways you feel better, because you see, you don't have to make all these points there in the world. Right? Like, you're not alone, even if you're alone when you're in a football stadium, and no one else agrees with you. There's millions of people who do agree with you, right? That's a good feeling. A bad feeling is to realize that coming up with some of these answers doesn't save the world. They come out, they help, they can make a wonderful period of time, but there are opposing forces. In in each of us even of just fear and weariness, and, and despair, which can, can put you in other places. But the, the hard part also Well, one thing was I realized by the end of the book, that the reason that we didn't know these stories, as well as we should have was partially the Cold War. It took me a while to really see this, I really had to do some research, some of which, you know, just sort of the highlights ended up in the book, but to really come to understand that in this country, in the United States, during the Cold War, it's in the 50s in response to this fresh, godless, calm animosity with the USSR. That yeah, that not just communism, but atheism because because they were associated with each other became a taboo because it was downright treasonous. The same way Catholicism is treasonous in a in a, you know, during the the age of religious wars, when a country turns Protestant, these kinds of existential belief systems. And so all these books that used to be on the shelves everywhere, came off the shelves. It's remarkable of the extent to which the history of atheism gets shut down in the 50s. And, yeah, there was research I did for a while on, on what I was calling the lightbulb years saying that the first half of the 20th century in the United States was the single greatest period of atheism, including today, that is, before the Cold War, we still haven't gotten back to that level of, of, of certain kinds of freedom. So that, you know, Edison says, you know, in in the, you know, the teens, I think it's 1913, says two New York Times on the front page of the times they asked him about, about the afterlife. And he says, No, of course not. I'm a person of proof and science and mechanism, proof that, of course, there's no afterlife. They'd asked him because William James, up at Harvard had said that just in case, he will try to contact people in case he was so curious about the afterlife. So he had died. And you know, when is your new him said they were contacted. So they went around. And now I don't think somebody who was primarily a maker, the way Edison was, would feel quite as comfortable saying that to the New York Times as in the teens, I'm just saying, even out we can look back and say, Wow, there were many famous men and women famous for other things not famous for their atheism, who were publicly avowed atheists. You know, Sam Barnhart, you know, like, actresses just coming out early part of the 20th century. So, so that was a one of the big parts of realizing the differences with doubt.
David Ames 28:56
Yeah. And again, I think one of the things that just strikes me about particularly looking at a overview the way you do in the book, I'm just seeing various cultures and various times in history, where we've been wrestling with this as humanity from the beginning, these are old questions. And I think he said something very insightful. Near the beginning about even if we hand you the answers, it's almost like we each individually as a society have to go through that process of asking those questions. Even though again, in history, these questions have been grappled with already.
Jennifer Michael Hecht 29:35
Right? And, and we will always have to, which is kind of the wonderful, terrible thing about being human art is not going to get old. Because we're because it's, it's not just that each individual has to go through the story on their own, but that each individual is responding to a new world in a way If they're the culture that's around them, and where they are, in their moment of history makes all the words they're using special.
David Ames 30:10
I mean, right? The context matters.
Jennifer Michael Hecht 30:12
It matters so much. And I think we forget that if, if, if you want went to read Newton right now, you'd be way better off trying to read a book written in this century, about Newton, then reading Newton. And one of the reasons for that is that he's, it's long enough go of course, Principia, a Roman Latin, but, but is the last great work written in Latin in that way. But but the the point is, even John Locke, you know, get closer up to the moment, the words don't mean the same thing. So if you just pick a paragraph and read it, right, you know, 911 people were posting this poem by Whitman, called the firemen, because they were so grateful to the firemen. I'm a New Yorker, I was here and we were feeling very grateful for, indeed, you know, someone I knew who was in the force, passed away that day. And but yeah, the Whitman poem was about the guy in the train, who keeps the fire going back in steam locomotives, there were guys who just had to keep shoveling the coal and keep it going. So yes, it was a hard working man, sacrificing himself, but it was the completely wrong fire man. And I know it's a bit of a digression. But I'm saying that the words means so many such different things. And, indeed, what Americans made up out of Christianity is found nowhere else in history, this very direct relationship with this almost male friend, Jesus character. That's, that's a very American invention. And so an atheist, now, you now are responding to a different religion than anybody else has, and you lost a different thing. Now, there are other things that religious people in the past as they became atheist sloths that you don't have to worry about, because you never had them. There are, you know, the, the ancient Greeks expected to be able to follow their heart and their feelings, but sometimes a Damon sometimes a spirit of one sort or another, or a god would take you over and have you either get in a fight, or fall into a romantic situation, or write something you didn't know you believed in, or do all sorts of things that are out of character, or in, in any case, when they decided, oh, that's all not true. And that did happen. They felt bereft of that, right, but they didn't sit around saying, I don't believe in the gods anymore. Now, I won't live forever, because the gods never offered eternal life for human beings in ancient Greece. So. So yeah, each of us come, each of us comes into the problem in our own moment, in our own way, and then yes, to process through. And, you know, there, there are these beautiful realities of being a natural creature, who has, who has feelings and, and observations of a world happening on many different levels, all at the same time. And comprehending one's vastness and one's limitations, realizing the extent to which you're part of a web of things, right, and your place in it, and the complexity of all of that, that there's something in there. Well, Emily Dickinson says that the brain is wider than the sky for put them side by side, the one the other will consume. And you besides So, the sky the universe is much bigger than you. But you know, the universe and the universe doesn't know you. So who is really the the point of this strange, beautiful, real reality? Yeah, so we are stuck in these mortal beings in these mortal situation but there's something that happens between us and something that happens within us, that is beyond words. And that leaves us the, the great adventure of living our lives. Attempting to speak from What we're actually experiencing to put that into words or colors or shapes to communicate to reach someone else, or at least to reach ourselves to say, yes, I've made something that pleases me in the way that the universe does and to have that communion. But the greatest is the one between other human beings and the way that something real happens in our relation to each other. That is, all the magic you need more than anything else.
David Ames 35:29
Yeah, the two things I wanted to say. One is, and this ties back to the topic of suicide, as well as that, I think we've taken the Copernican principle too far, where we've, we've, you know, we've said, man, we're just a tiny speck in this massive universe, and we're totally pointless. And the flip side of that is what you describe, right? That we are conscious beings, we are observers of the universe. And so I would say, even if you are alone on a desert island, thinking, your thoughts that is so rare and so precious, those thoughts, those conscious thoughts, that there's meaning in that, and we are meaning makers. And I could not agree with you more that one of the primary ways that we make meaning is by interacting with one another, it's our relationships with family, with friends, with our community, and with the wider world. And I one of the things I talk about on the podcast a lot is that as people go through a faith transition of one kind or another, they might be very angry. And, and one of the dangers of that is you've got this all this newfound knowledge, this, you know, the sledgehammer of, of argumentation, and and you're angry, and the most dangerous thing that can happen is you burn bridges to the people that you actually care about. Oh, right. Sure. And so one of the things I just tried to convey is that, yes, you're angry that anger is valid. But sometimes we have to be the bigger person, and the people that we love, really, ultimately is the meaning in our lives. And and, and that's what we need to find precious.
Jennifer Michael Hecht 37:11
Yeah. I agree entirely. And it's a very interesting perspective. I have certainly had many consequences about from being a vocal atheist. But coming from a New York Jewish background. It wasn't, I certainly didn't have to lose friends, I certainly did have some struggles there. And continue to in certain ways, but But I certainly know what most Americans who are coming out of, you know, in fact, for many, many years, I would attend a lot of atheist conventions, because I was invited to speak. And, yeah, the people that you meet there, who who is going to go, why would you choose that as your vacation? And so it is people who very often are coming from a world that that treated them with a lot of hostility as they started to ask questions. So they needed this, this other community. And, yeah, I was very moved to see I bought the book. A boy erased that they made the movie about recently. I purchased it before I saw that I was quoted in it. Oh, there's, you know, a blank page between parts and little quote from Foucault and a quote for me, I was delighted to see but the quote was, it was moving because I wouldn't have thought of this as what my quote was just outside the turf war between religion and science, more nuanced arrangements may be made. You know, what this person is saying is he came out of a world that was very religious, and it was sort of trying to stomp him out, in his very being right. But he loved those people. And he did negotiate, you know, his mom goes with him now to these readings and stuff. And so they, when you love the people, and they love you, you can get past things, even if it takes years sometimes. But if the atheist world around you tells you that the only way to be an atheist is to hate all religion, and not all of them do, right, their atheist crowds where they are very friendly to religion, but very, very strictly atheist, others who are very anti religious, but okay, about a certain amount of supernaturalism. Right? So it's not even a coherent category, but still to just realize that everything that we think of as part of religion has been part of non religious human culture at one time or another, and so you don't actually have to throw out anything that doesn't fit. The the many of the ideas and feelings and rituals that are that we think of as attached to superstition or theism detach very easily. And it feels like you're doing something either hypocritical or offensive if you've never seen it before, that's one of the greatest things about knowing the history of this thing. You just realize how many thoughtful brave permutations of belief and, and ritual and life and getting along with the people around you? How many indeed there have been and, and it's hidden from us for a lot of reasons, including the belief that atheism either didn't exist, ever, right? Or that it was so dangerous, that no one spoke it out loud because you get killed. That isn't true, either. So there's definite hiding, and we have to, we have to do our research with that notion. But yeah, the things that we think we have to hate, because they came along with, with ideas that were oppressive to us, we can end up living in very small box, if we don't do the simple history of looking around and seeing what's been there. And again, what's so great about that, you know, research and writing of doubt for me, what were the characters, these amazing men and women, I mean, the women running around 19th century America, living off giving speeches where they would get chased out of town afterwards for their atheism, wearing you know, the petticoats and like, the whole thing, but managing, and some of them getting invited to the White House. And all these stories are still around, you can go to where the building was where there was a church of science, and there's a plaque on the wall. The stuff is, I always tell everyone, there are atheist screens in every religious person's library, because they just don't know that that's what that book is. You know, even the Leviathan people think of Hobbes Leviathan as just a political work, but it's goes on and on about what he finds ridiculous. sanity,
David Ames 42:25
right. Can we talk briefly about you have a chapter on women in in the history of doubt? I want to just bring it to a modern question. There are times where I want to just relish in the concept of doubt, because I, again, I think that it leads ultimately to truth. But there is a dark side, there's a flip side to that, and the idea of the Dunning Kruger effect. And in particular, I think very highly competent women in our modern society can also have a negative side of doubt where they they doubt their own abilities as yourself being a very highly competent woman or in our society. How do you distinguish between doubt that is good self evaluation and doubt that is debilitating?
Jennifer Michael Hecht 43:14
Ah, well, it's a good question. I guess the, the doubt that I'm talking about in the book is almost always doubt in received knowledge. And the question of doubting oneself is you know, that's an eternal balance. Because if you don't, you're just going to be an ass. Yes. And so anyone who's too successful tends to stop being able to do this balancing work. Which means that you know, all these things that make us doubt ourselves all these you know, and if anyone looks and says oh, she's got seven books and a couple more we for every success for most people I know certainly writers there are so many failures for every success you know, a rejection times 10 You just That's why they say don't do it unless you you really can't not because they've so the the self doubt part the world the world make sure that most people take a couple of real intellectual body blows now and again, you know, and and I find it remarkable watching the great you know, was watching up Fossey Verdun on on FX right now. He's just incredibly celebrated artists. You see it everywhere, when they have one small reversal want, you know, one On batch of critics, that doubt comes back in and it can be debilitating to the point where you can't do anything. But and I don't know, I don't I don't know how anyone. All I know is to do good work and to actually finish anything that that double need is predicated on a balance between self doubt, and a kind of dumb courage. Yeah.
David Ames 45:29
I feel that if I can jump in here, I feel that way about the podcast, right? I have to have a certain level of cognitive biases to even do the work. Who's going to listen to this? Who are you listening out there? I don't, I can't hear it. It's amazes me that anybody is listening. But when you create something, and when you put it out into the world, and other people identify with it, that's an amazing thing. And so there does have to almost be dumb courage to just just put things out there.
Jennifer Michael Hecht 45:59
Yeah, I think so. I think so. Indeed. I just reading out, Antonin Otto talking about Vincent van Gogh and saying, nothing has ever been done. No great work, but also No, almost small work, nothing gets done, nothing new gets done without it being driven by, by an almost crazy kind of anguish, pain or need. So it's not it's like, yes, it's, it's a little dumb courage, but the courage of moving forward, but there also is almost has to be something chasing you from behind some feeling that you that you need to, to, to try in this direction that you need to do it. And because what else could overcome the tremendous, you know, frustration of trying to do anything? And the feeling of who am I? Why should I bother? Right? But we have to always just juxtapose that with the there are people throughout history have changed the world, practically on their own, you know, on their own standing there and being fierce enough to gather a small group around them. And that group standing there and being fierce enough so that other people see, there's an option for it. So, you know, Maslow's pyramid of of needs, yeah, you have to have some of your needs, taken care of in order to do these daring things, like the podcast. On the other hand, if you were really completely settled, I'm not sure you would try a new skill, right? Why not enjoy the things you're already doing. So this thing really is complicated, because I think as you become more mature, in some ways, you have fewer needs to that what being more mature is certainly in our culture, and in many others, to act to not have the need to be celebrated. And to get the attention and to to be applauded. Now. So if maturity means being able to sit quietly, when are we going to hear from these people? When are we going to hear from the wise, right? So it has to be this endless adjustment of what you, you know, an assessment of what you really have to offer of what would feel good to try of your motives, all of these things. And there are going to be times when just feeling bad about yourself, it's going to be enough to make you paint every day. Because you need to do something right. Other times, you're going to feel great about yourself. But if everybody stops painting, when they're in love, we're not going to have any love paintings. Right? Right. So it's a it's it is very complicated. And we do I think all have to trust ourselves. I guess you and I are sort of in the same ballpark age wise, but when you know, when you're in your 20s, you're just trying so hard. And as you get older, you do start to be able to get get the kind of perspective that that allows you to maybe try some things without quite the same desperation. And that allows you to I think, sometimes get work done that you couldn't when you were younger.
David Ames 49:29
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and I look back on, you know, in my youth was when I was I went to Bible college, I did mastery for a few years. But you know, I look back on that not only from the secular perspective, but just the, the lack of wisdom at that time in my life period, you know, that, that, you know, you've I've lived a few more years. I've got a few more experiences. Yeah, give me give me some perspective.
Jennifer Michael Hecht 49:53
I mean, I guess I evaded the question a little bit about the the, the female extra burden. And I have to say it's, it's it's frustrating is the the way that the culture uses women philosophers, women thinkers as compared to their male peers. I, I have found it distressing and mostly managing it by trying to think about other things. I'm not really at peace with it and I'm not feeling terribly hopeful. And I'm not sure I would advise a woman or young woman I cared about to necessarily put themselves in this position,
David Ames 50:49
right? Well, I can tell you that I'm incredibly grateful that you have. Thanks. I want to just quickly tell the listeners, you have to read this book, or just doing the research for today I looked at I've read it on Google Play Books. And so I can I can capture the notes, the highlights of that I have 230 highlights. There was no way there's no way to summarize the book without reading it out loud, right. It's just it's a huge summary. And if you are a person who makes memes, this is just a wealth of quotes, you can just mine quotes all day there. I do want to hit just a couple more themes. One of the one of the things that really spoke to me, was this idea of doubt as a feature and not a bug of Christianity, and you specifically highlight Pauline Christianity. Yeah. And I think that's absolutely true of the modern era, in particular Evangelical Church, if it's truly faith alone, if it's trading, just the belief, then the the natural flip side of that is, is doubt. Can you expand on that idea? A bit?
Jennifer Michael Hecht 52:02
Sure. Yeah, that's a fascinating territory and a lot of different ways. The truth is the idea of doubt, in religion and doubt, in God's disbelief and belief was really never central to any religion, I can find any record of before Jesus, the reason it happens is because Christianity is a crash of two streams of culture, the Judaic Hebraic, one and the Greek idea, and by the time of the Common Era, the Greeks have a whole, you know, they have libraries full of atheism, and religious doubt built along all sorts of different scientific or psychological or philosophical lines, we divide them up in those ways. And, you know, in the, in the Republic, so, Plato is, is we're talking about, at least, he's, he's talking about fourth century BC, right BCE, and he's saying all the youth are atheist,
David Ames 53:18
right? Kids these days?
Jennifer Michael Hecht 53:20
That's right. Because Because there have been all these different, there are lots of different ways that that the gods have been dissected and seem to be cultural ideas. And so the religion of the Jesus sect of Judaism, which is what Christianity is, for its first 100 years is a request to believe in not just the Judaic God, which had gotten huge in the sense of being all powerful, all knowing, omnipresent, but gotten so small in terms of anything you could say about him, right? Can't say anything about him. He doesn't look like anything. There's never been a God that didn't look like anything that wasn't a stipulation of Gods before. It was a very weird thing that the Jewish temple had an empty place where the god usually would be at the Sanctum Sanctorum you know, so. So this god that doesn't have features was tolerable by rationalism, in a way that when the Jesus cult goes with Paul, as you said, the Paul line changeover that this isn't a religion about Jesus's critique of contemporary Judaism. And what it really was, was Jesus wanting to kick the Romans out of Jerusalem It was now there's a regular political message and all of that. But when you when you get to Paul, and the religion is now mostly about his death and revival then from that point on the, the, you require a leap of faith and that's when that phrase gets invented because the Emperor's until Constantine it you know In, in what 325 AD, the common error that's what they you see before before the Roman Empire makes Christianity no longer illegal it doesn't make it the religion of the of Rome but it makes it no longer illegal 300 years we had to not get killed or choose to be martyred, right? So had to find a way to get along with the Romans. And that had to be in a philosophical language that accepted that they were talking about a God who was eternal, but who had a face and a mommy. And you know, what a spleen? Does he have an appendix? All of this had been laughed at by by Greek skeptics already looking at their own gods, right? So really took this idea that there was that religion was about a leap into belief over disbelief. Again, yeah, you can even nowadays you can search online, any Bible and just look for the word belief in the Hebrew Bible. And it's really only a you know, I believe it was Thursday when I mean, it's not usually right. And then look, search for it in, in the Christian Bible, and there it is, in this, you know, it'll show up in red, all like a big chrysanthemum around Jesus this and and that goes with the magic as well, all of this notion of let's believe, despite reason. So Christianity is it's a brilliant idea. It's an it's an it's a marvelous theater for human experience, right? This coming towards and away from a belief in a kind of ideal, not everyone wants the ideal that's in this box. And the closer you look at it, do I want to live forever with my family really? Loud worshipping, like, what is that? There's no image of that, that really meant. But if you say it's an ideal, still, there's very localized ideal. It's a kind of pretty human activity, I think I think there's a beauty to that, imagine the ideal, and then attempt to believe it, there's a beauty to it. It's not my thing, unless the reason I believe it, is because I have evidence, it's just elusive. And that I, I have incorporated into my life and my work, the notion that there are things that we believe that we have evidence for, but they're elusive, like love, like justice. And that, though, I'm always very careful when I use words that seem religious, I think the notion of faith, that we can have human faith in ideas that are not measurable the same way, you know, evaporation and condensation are measurable, and yet, are demonstrably real outside one's own self. They're real within the human group, right. And sometimes we can look at things that are elusive, but real within the human group and say, I want to work on my own ability to have faith in say, that I am part of a world of feeling that that I can relate to and how I can be moved by and that I can move that that requires faith, it requires faith to feel that all of this matters without anyone watching. How do I work on that phase? One thing is by asking myself, why would help if anyone was watching? You know, if there was a God out there, what taking notes? Why would that be more satisfying, but I was raised in the West in the Judeo Christian world, and it does feel like I'm sure it feels like if we were being watched and recorded somehow, that we could say, well, you know, that's why it's worth it. But that's a mistake. Right? It doesn't mean it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. So. So yeah, I didn't remember that question.
David Ames 59:33
No, no, no worries. Let me let me ask a quick history question that I legitimately am just curious about personally, and then we'll hit my last theme, and we'll, we'll start to wrap up. Great. So I'm fascinated my tiny amount of, of education in was in Christian church history. And we studied things like Gnosticism and you know, we have the Nicene Creed, that's really a risk. response to narcissism. And I kind of trace it back a little bit to and tell me if I'm incorrect in doing so. It to Plato, and these ideas of, of, you know, the Platonic forms this idea of these things are, are more real in their abstract ideas than then the natural world around us. Is Plato the first to come up with dualism? How does that play out in history? What's your opinion on that?
Jennifer Michael Hecht 1:00:30
Yeah, I guess it's an interesting question. And the way you're phrasing it, I guess. I guess Plato definitely stands out as having described the problem for us in a way that we didn't see before. And that was sufficient to, you know, basically set up the playing field. You know, up until this point, to some degree, the truth is, I guess, in most cases, what we see, is that kind of conversation happening about language. So how is it that we know what a chair is, since all the chairs are different, right, is that that's the sort of obvious version of it. There's, there are ways that all of this floats in and out of kind of all science and, and all poetic description of the world. So that, you know, just in the way we came up with atoms before the electron microscope, it's, it's a kind of metaphorical extension, in part of the same notion of, you know, an ocean wave is not a thing. It's the ocean waving. And, and, you know, an apple that comes into the universe, you know, first it's a flower and it comes out, and then it it shrinks back and, and ends up withered and disappears, again, was for a moment the universe appaling in the same kind of way. Yeah. And following Alan Watts, the great Buddhist teacher, You are the universe Ewing, for a moment. And, and that aspect, where we're recognizing that the whole world is in flow, I think interacts in an interesting way with this idea of there being sort of Platonic forms of there being either these ideal forms, or the forms are not really so important. They're more the shapes that an underlying flow is, is taking out. But I want to ask you find more about your question. Tell me more about your interest in that specific Nexus.
David Ames 1:02:55
Yeah, I guess, I guess what I'm saying is a tremendous amount of problems come out of the concept of dualism. We're still debating that today, right? Is consciousness a function of the brain? Or is it something else? Right? So we're, you know, Descartes is asking, you know, I think therefore I am, he's got separation. Right? What is the physical and what is the conscious and we are still having that same debate. And to some degree, I just want to shake my fist at Plato and blame him.
Jennifer Michael Hecht 1:03:29
Interesting, right? Yeah, I don't. I don't see Plato, for one thing. I, he's a great philosopher. And I know that he was against poetry in certain ways. But I think he was just mostly against religious poetry. Those are the ones he names. But he's it for me as a poet, philosopher, so that for one thing he has to be because we don't know the order of his works. So we don't know. We don't know the order of his work. So he did very contradictory things across his life, sometimes very poetic things that if he was a poet, I wouldn't hold it against him at all, to hold two opposing positions in two different forms. So he, so he's, he, for me, what he actually believed even about these things, is up for grabs to some degree among them. So there's that. This other thing, I just want to say, look, when I think about the best reasons to believe in some of the most attractive or vontade of the consciousness can be separated ideas. I give it I give it straight thought. And I have to say that I think if there were no other animate life forms, I would say that consciousness is so different from rocks and even so different from trees, that I just don't know whether I would What I would make of it? I wouldn't say, I didn't know.
David Ames 1:05:04
Whereas, which is an honest answer. Yes, yeah. But I am now
Jennifer Michael Hecht 1:05:08
surrounded by ants and flies and cats and dogs and polar bears and chimpanzees and bonobo, and I can look at this planet. And even without looking at its history, where did we come from just looking around, as people throughout history have done and said, this consciousness thing is clearly part of matter. I don't know how conscious an ant is, but it is a lot more conscious than, than a rock, right? I have more in common with the ant, you know, then the rock and the ant have in common? We're doing stuff. Yeah. And to see consciousness on all these different levels of scale, to me, leaves no room for, for mysticism that this consciousness is extraordinary. It's poetic, but it is demonstrably part of the natural world. For me, if you're not going to assign a heaven or possible little, what an exhaust of energy from the death of an ant. Just as Ecclesiastes says, you know, a man dies like a dog, why should he die? Otherwise? Why should a dog dog spirit not go up? If you're believing that a man says so? For me, the idea that this consciousness is somehow inextricably bodily I just that just seems pretty bedrock for me. So the next question is, can I regularly convinced myself to be happy about that? Yes. You know, yes. Because if the content if consciousness was really separate from the body, then you could tell me stories about how maybe we're in a computer simulation, but we're not right. I mean, you you know the difference between watching a TV show you even know the difference between a dream and being awake, maybe not when you're dreaming. But when you're awake, you know? Right. And part of the reason you and I both know we're awake right now is because we can feel the weight of ourselves in our chair, the coolness of the air against our arms, also that we're hungry. Also the five thoughts that are flickering at the edge of consciousness, the birds, there's too much going on. Yeah, maybe stuff up fiction. It just doesn't have the detail. Yes. The detail is all from there's so much that's happening because I am an embodied creature. Yes. And this outrageous amount of information that is synthesized through this being that is me that I did not create. I can't think of a more delicious, strange position to be in. Yes. So as much as it's a it's a heavy burden. It's also one I wouldn't put down. Yeah,
David Ames 1:08:20
yeah, I have to I'll have to have a computer scientist on the podcast to talk about, to me that to even contemplate the idea of a simulation that would take the computational power of the size of the universe to compute, right, the detail level that we experienced, so it seems like that's a non starter for me personally. Like I'm I'm very cognizant of your time, but I've got one more theme that would just kill kill me if we didn't get to. And, and again, just to express my gratitude for you coined the term graceful life philosophy, and I just need to set up briefly why that's, that's meaningful for me, I am on a fool's errand assistive physio task to try to redeem there's another religious word, the term grace, this idea. For me, what I call secular grace, is that people and we've talked about this throughout the podcast, so far, people need each other. We need to be we need to feel accepted by one another. We need to feel loved by one another. We need to feel belonging to your group. And you can do all of that all those things are available in a perfectly natural, naturalistic perspective. HUMAN humanity provides that and so that's that this idea of secular grace, but you've said it so beautifully, and it was the first time I'd kind of read someone else put it into words. And and then you go on to describe throughout history, the many graceful life philosophies that are strewn throughout the history. Can you tell me what that means to you? Maybe an example or two
Jennifer Michael Hecht 1:10:00
Yeah, I was delighted to hear you describe to me some of that. And, and it made me really happy because I think it's, it's such an important place to start from. And yeah, I wanted to share with you that I had to come up with the term graceful life philosophy, because not only were there not good enough terms, but the terms were a little negative. So, historically, they were often called Silver philosophers as opposed to the golden ones. And the difference is clear in the fact that it's the same insult that's in self help. Okay, the notion of the notion that the work of the work that we do on ourselves, I think it's because it's one of these things that everyone does a small version of, right, we advise our selves, we advise the people around us, and we come up with life hacks that we then tell other people, so self help seems like it can. Well, not just seems it can be this, this lower form of, of philosophy. And that's how it's been viewed through history. So even philosophers who did both the, you know, who studied either ontology, or eschatology or phenomenology, whatever specific metaphysical problems they took on that were about time, or, or cause and effect? Or what origins could mean? Or what endings could mean, the philosophical questions that we hold up, as, you know, as the golden questions, these are the questions about that are practically what was left when physics took everything else you could measure, but it's still physics kinds of questions, right? And then there's these other questions, a lower kind of philosophy, how should we live? Well, how come so many times the same people are doing it, or people in the same crowd are doing it? Because they actually aren't? Because graceful life philosophy isn't a lower form? It's a human version of the same question. And so it's the question of then. Okay, so given that we are separate, and yet, and yet commute communal, how shall I live? Given that time, is always moving? And yet, repetition is constant? So then how shall I live? And so these questions aren't separate, but they needed a name that didn't have to be defended with, you know, oh, this is ancient self help that would have denigrated it, if I called it that they kind of said, this is, you know, self help is really just silver philosophy. That's still denigrating it. So I did, it did make sense, just in terms of the conversation, to keep it as philosophy, but to separate it from the, how does the world work? Separate from our US question? This is the how does the world work? You know? And then how do we live within it? And how do we want to live? The point was, these people weren't saying, Oh, just, you know, just get all the plant and physical pleasure you can out of it, and then die, or just try to make a name for yourself, and then die, or, you know, get as much power as you can. Everybody knows these things. Don't make you happy forever. So there's always this voice that comes after and says, Well, look, if materialism or power or winning isn't working for you, then how do we live this thing that is graceful? Yes, I very much was thinking of the word grace in there that that we are talking about, not just how to live well, live well with others, but to live in tune with the most, the richest, most poetic aspects of being human. And the world we're in is constantly pulling us in both directions, right? There's this, you know, the beautiful trees and birds and this whole outside world right outside. And yet, we also have to get some dinner on the table and have to do all these mundane things in order to make that happen. And, and again, that's why I rehabilitate words like faith, with the same need and grace with the same need of, you know, putting into that category of things that take you know, when I talk about if you're talking about grace in a religious setting, no one thinks anybody's walking around always in a state of grace. So why Why does do do we philosophers and poets and humanists think that our philosophies should keep us in a state of happiness at all times? It can't possibly, it's going to require the same stoking of faith in hope and beauty and rebirth and the healing properties of time. Right? And keeping at bay, some of the more negative stuff and trying to build in ourselves the capacity to be of use.
David Ames 1:15:33
Yeah, absolutely. And find find meaning and purpose and something to, to drive your desire to live. Yeah.
Jennifer Michael Hecht 1:15:41
But also to know that it is, it would not be even normal to feel good all the time. It's not what you're looking for. You're nobody feels meaning all the time. Nobody's in love all the time. I mean, you know, everybody. The more real this stuff is, the more elusive it is. And yet, the struggle is, you know, is worth it. But we do have to help each other in that belief the same way. Any belief requires a certain amount of mutual shoring up. And but you know, that's the answer to your question. I mean, for me, done a lot of interviews, I, you know, I sort of started to say no to a bunch of them after a while, just because I had done so many. And, but you know, this conversation, it's, it's cool, it's good to hear your story. And, you know, I hope people listening, you know, feel feel moved as well. But I feel moved, you know, and it feels it's great to hear that the work that I've you know, all of this interaction after it is what keeps our heads above water.
David Ames 1:16:50
Yeah, no, and I, you know, I do the podcast for selfish reasons, right? Because I get to have these kinds of conversations. What I found was, you know, as an unbeliever, I was interested in asking these big questions. And now as an atheist, I'm still very much interested in asking the big questions, right, questions that don't have answers, right, and to connect with other human beings who are interested in the same questions is this very powerful thing to happen? Yeah.
Jennifer Michael Hecht 1:17:18
So powerful. And, you know, I hope you will hear from a lot of people because certainly, you know, it's not as strong as as you know, in maybe 510 years after doubt, just hearing from people a lot of the time I would get emails from people and it was, it really did show me that this work, you know, I think it makes you feel good. And actually, really, there's a world out there and that's how this conversation started. Right? That that, um, went to Twitter and and searched my name mentioned, you know, and that's, that's that little, you know, spider sort of just flicking the string and just trying just listening is, you know, is anybody out there and, and realizing that even one little response, just electrifies everything?
David Ames 1:18:04
Absolutely, absolutely. Jennifer, I could keep you here for hours upon hours. I hope you might consider coming back on the podcast, maybe when your next book comes out. I'd love to I think I have 1000 Other questions I could ask you. Tell people how they can get in touch with your work. What's the right websites to check out? What's your Twitter handle?
Jennifer Michael Hecht 1:18:25
I have a website, Jennifer Miko, hec.com. I'm also just Jennifer microtech@gmail.com. If you want to say hi, and and my books are on Amazon stay and as we've been talking about doubt history.
David Ames 1:18:39
Absolutely. And I will provide some links to Amazon in the show notes. Terrific.
Jennifer Michael Hecht 1:18:44
Thanks a lot. It was great talking.
David Ames 1:18:46
Yes. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. You're welcome.
Jennifer Michael Hecht 1:18:49
Bye bye.
David Ames 1:18:58
Final thoughts on the episode. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Jennifer Michael Hecht as much as I did. The breadth of her knowledge and insight is incredible. And I really could have asked questions for hours upon end, many of which I didn't get the opportunity to do so due to time constraints. I would have liked to ask Jennifer about growing up Jewish, as well as subjects she touches on in the book about reinterpreting the stories in the Old Testament. She has a wealth of knowledge and I highly recommend the book, doubt a history because it gives one such a sense of context. And in our moment of secularization in the West, that's crucially important. As Jennifer mentioned, she has written several other books, I'll make sure I have links to her website, as well as Amazon links to her books. I want to thank Jennifer for being on the podcast and graciously sharing her time and wisdom. As a last thought, I just want to talk about the virtues of doubt itself. And here I want to distinguish between what we discussed in the podcast this Dunning Kruger effect where highly competent people doubt themselves, versus the kind of doubt that leads to self evaluation and self reflection. I believe that doubt leads to truth. I believe that doubt helps one to discard bad ideas. If you happen to be a believer and you are having the long dark night of the soul, rather than feeling guilty about this, lean into those doubts, explore what they are telling you. Go investigate. Read your favorite apologists. Does their argument make you feel better? To talk to wise counselors? Do they make you feel better? Ultimately, you may even want to read sources that disagree with you. For all of my time as a believer, I believed that if faith was worth anything that it could live up to scrutiny. So my one piece of suggestion is scrutinize your doubts scrutinize the answers that you get. Take time to evaluate what you accept as truth. Doubt leads to Time for some footnotes. The song has a track called waves by mkhaya beats, please check out her music links will be in the show notes. If you'd like to help support the podcast, here are the ways you can go about that. First help promote it. Podcast audience grows by word of mouth. If you found it useful or just entertaining, please pass it on to your friends and family. post about it on social media so that others can find it. Please rate and review the podcast wherever you get your podcasts. This will help raise the visibility of our show. Join me on the podcast. Tell your story. Have you gone through a faith transition? You want to tell that to the world? Let me know and let's have you on? Do you know someone who needs to tell their story? Let them know. Do you have criticisms about atheism or humanism, but you're willing to have an honesty contest with me? Come on the show. If you have a book or a blog that you want to promote, I'd like to hear from you. Also, you can contribute technical support. If you are good at graphic design, sound engineering or marketing. Please let me know and I'll let you know how you can participate. And finally financial support. There will be a link on the show notes to allow contributions which would help defray the cost of producing the show. If you want to get in touch with me you can google graceful atheist or you can send email to graceful atheist@gmail.com You can tweet at me at graceful atheist or you can just check out my website at graceful atheists.wordpress.com Get in touch and let me know if you appreciate the podcast. Well this has been the graceful atheist podcast My name is David and I am trying to be the graceful atheists. Grab somebody you love and tell them how much they mean to you.
This has been the graceful atheist podcast
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gracefulatheist.com 