Arline interviews this week’s guest, Racquelle. Racquelle grew up in Canada in the Seventh Day Adventist church. Conspiracy theories were common in her household. Some of them she bought into.

Throughout her life she went through periods of doubt but something kept bringing her back to Church. A sense of obligation and expectation never left her.

Eventually, Racquelle deconverted from her faith and deconstructed the conspiracy theories. She now has an interesting perspective on the deconstruction process.

Links

Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/racquelle.pilon

Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/racquelle_p/

Recommendations

YouTube

Holy Koolaid

Podcasts

The Thinking Atheist

The Friendly Atheist

Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman Podcast

Conspirtuality

Oh No, Ross and Carrie

Books

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Quotes

Once I started the motion it started moving very quickly.

We aren’t actually looking for truth we are looking to confirm what we already think
and so we will find it if that is what we are looking for.

Obviously the creation story, Adam and Eve, is a myth. And If it is a myth, then all of it is bullshit … it doesn’t hold up … it doesn’t make sense.

If [they] do not face it, deconstruct it, see the criticisms … life, as they get older, confronting death, confronting change, often times it will take them back.

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Deconversion
https://gracefulatheist.com/2017/12/03/deconversion-how-to/

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https://gracefulatheist.com/2016/10/21/secular-grace/

Attribution

“Waves” track written and produced by Makaih Beats

David Ames  0:11  
This is the graceful atheist podcast United studios Podcast Network. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome to the graceful atheist podcast. My name is David and I am trying to be the graceful atheist. Please consider rating and reviewing the podcast on the Apple podcast store, rate the podcast on Spotify and subscribe to the podcast wherever you are listening. We have our merchandise store on T public you can get all of your graceful atheist and secular Grace themed items there The link will be in the show notes. If you're in the middle of doubt, deconstruction, the dark night of the soul, you do not have to do it alone. Join our private Facebook group deconversion anonymous and become a part of the community you can find us at facebook.com/groups/deconversion mighty had the week off so any editing issues you can blame me on today's show Arline interviews this week's guest Raquel Raquel grew up in Canada in the Seventh Day Adventist Church. In the Seventh Day Adventist Church she always felt slightly set apart different from the surrounding Christian experience. Throughout her life, Raquel went through periods of doubt and recommitment and found herself coming back to church again and again. Ultimately, the way the church treated LGBTQ people, and the violence within the Old and New Testament were issues that she could not get around. Eventually, she deconstructed her faith and she has a really interesting perspective on deconversion and deconstruction that I think you're gonna enjoy. Here is Arline interviewing Rocco.

Arline  2:06  
Hi, Raquel, welcome to the graceful

Racquelle  2:08  
atheist podcast. Hi, Arline. Nice to meet you.

Arline  2:11  
Yes, nice to finally meet you. The way we normally start is just tell us about the religious environment you grew up in. Um,

Racquelle  2:18  
I grew up Seventh Day Adventist. And I know that that seems to be a bit of a smaller contingency. I've seen a few throughout the deconversion anonymous Facebook page, but it's still a little bit smaller, we felt smaller, even growing up we've had felt like definitely we were kind of the, the different people for sure. I grew up kind of born in it. Second generation, I guess on my mom's side, and third generation on my dad's side. And I grew up in the seventh devenus community in Alberta, Canada. So there was like, college and high school and elementary and everything all on a campus and the big church and some industries. Cuz you probably know, any type of Christian private schools are not cheap. Yeah, so kids who were going to college or high school could work in some of the industries that were on campus. So that's kind of what it was like when I was really small. I think of it as being conservative. But looking back, we weren't super strict compared to, but it was around different people for sure. Like there was a variety. I knew kids in my school whose parents were very strict. Most of my friends and most of us looking back it was fairly I guess liberal in the sense not liberal in theology. Like we sang hymns at church you know, the kid I think they probably loud drums now but like, but liberal in the sense of life was fairly normal. Like I didn't feel super isolated from society. It was funny because there's a a something I've just accepted a podcast that I listened to I can suggest that for any listeners who are interested call haystacks in hell. And I'll explain the title of that later. Who just had a question today, their podcast comes up every Saturday which is kind of a funny nod to the fact that we kept saying yes, that asking about Halloween cuz I guess that's even a question with evangelical people. Did you grow up with Halloween? And we did we we dressed up my grandma made popcorn balls when that was still allowed because I'm an older millennial. So that was in the seven years before the scares all went around about that. I mean, I watched all the TV programs I knew other popular music like I didn't feel isolated in that way from the the world, the secular, secular world, but yet in some ways you do feel different because your beliefs are so much different. And you do have this background idea especially as you get older and you learn about the doctrines that it's very much the other you know, people are the other where the innocence where the other end I went to school, mostly Christian school, except for a couple years I went in grade eight, I went to public school and then grade 1011, I went to public school. I know this in retrospect, my mom had become fairly disillusioned, I think with her faith because she had my dad was very abusive person. And so when they had divorced, I think she felt very, I knew I knew this leader from afterwards conversations with her as I got older, I didn't know this as a child, but that she had gotten very felt very abandoned some wider, or that the expectation is that somehow she had failed and not staying in the marriage. Right. So I think she felt a great deal of and there was some other things she had gone to an avendus college and there would have experienced some date rape incident and stuff like that. So I think she was just had a lot of issues. And then she just felt very unsupported within the church. And he also had a good friend who was closeted gay. So I think, just a lot of things. So even though I went to school, there, we didn't, we weren't always consistent with going to church every week, as I kind of got older until I was in my teens, and not at all in grade 1011. Because we had moved to another province, I was fully had the teenage experience of drinking and drugs and like it was a fairly normal teenage years. And then I after high school, funny enough, I started working at this place, and I met my now husband when I was like 18, or whatever. And, you know, you asked you asked those questions. Where are you from? Where did you grow up? Where did I was like, Oh, you probably wouldn't know is this I went to school at this little Christian School in Macomb, Alberta. And he's like, Oh, so you've seen him like, back because nobody knows that. And his mom was honest, his dad was Catholic. So he'd gone to Catholic school, but he knew of it right. He'd gone to church as a young person. Oh, and I had been baptized when I was when I was 10, which is, like, considered very inappropriate of churches to do that. But it was after like a week of prayer, you know, like they we used to do, I don't know if other churches do this, but especially you'd been on a church school campus, they would have these big week of prayers at the school. And they would bring in special teachers, speakers and stuff. So it's a lot of, you know, you know, you've been I'm sure ballistic series or things like that. emotional manipulation. So, at the end of the week of prayer, you're this vulnerable 10 year old who's also kind of at a dysfunctional home, he's going, oh, yeah, you know, you're baptize, which is so bad, because like, you can't stick with it, or, or in what your mind is the ideal of it, right, that's presented to you. So then you go through teenage and you do normal teenage things. And then, you know, then you feel even worse, in a sense, if you had never gotten baptized in the first place. And I didn't, I didn't dwell on that a lot growing up, like there was a lot of stuff going on in my home that had nothing to do with church or Christianity anyways, so like, I was focused on a lot of those issues. But then they met my now husband, and we started getting interested in church again. And then we were rebaptised. Like, when I was like, 19, or whatever, you know, he showed more interested in it first, and then I kind of like, not that he like, he wasn't a bully, or he and like pull me into but it was just, it was more of a sense, like, oh, you know, God's God's really using this person to bring me back to him, right, kind of, kind of a feeling. And then so for a few years, we were really, I'm sure my family. I know, my family thought we were kind of getting extreme because we it's hard to explain to people some feminism in a sense, but it came out of the, the Great Awakening time, the Second Great Awakening of the eight hundreds. And then if you know anything, they were our early founders, were part of this Millerite movement who believe that Jesus was coming again on a specific date, he didn't come and then they kind of reset the date. And that was something called the great disappointment and then they believe that oh, okay, we got the props. We got the day right. We just got the thing wrong. And actually something happened in heaven and blah, blah, blah, is this crazy thing? Ah,

Arline  9:18  
that's convenient. Oh, yeah, it's it's it's typical.

Racquelle  9:21  
It's typical, like moving the goalposts kind of behavior which when you're indoctrinated and growing up, I can look at all in hindsight now, but it all seemed. And then of course, we had a prophet's which, of course, yep, similar in the sense similar in a sense to similar but different to Mormon, cuz I would say there wasn't nearly as much it wasn't nearly as scandalous as obviously scandalous behavior, like I can look back and go no, oh, there's something problems with it. But you know, whatever. So we got more involved in the more serious teachings of our church and we take it very serious Wesleyan started reading more of her name is Ellen G white and we started reading more of her read her books. And we took our faith mores too seriously. And we actually even went for a few months out to this, what they call self supporting schools because they're they're like, they're adventurous, but they're independent. So they're getting it's kind of getting fringy but not full on like, not like David Koresh weird, but just like, but just more more more like they consider more authentic, you know, getting back to the Bible, kind of a, you know, we're getting back to the real the truth, the the true love of God or whatever, you know, however, people define that. And so we're there for a few months. And I know my family was a little bit because they're not there. They were they were they were conservative, Christian, but not like me on that. And we just viewed it as well, we were just taking our faith seriously, right. We also never pushed it on them. Like we were never trying to like, Oh, you have to think that way we do. We just kind of we're trying to live what we thought was right. And then we left that place, because we found it really culty we so we ended up leaving? Yeah, I know. It's funny. It was weird. Where they're

Arline  11:08  
like little things along the way. And all of a sudden you're like, or is it just like something big happened at that place

Racquelle  11:14  
where that's where we left early, we were there for a few months, it was supposed to be this medical missionary thing was very poorly, okay. But the whole compound it just those kinds of places I find, no matter how well meaning and I don't think the I don't necessarily think the people who started it were super culty in themselves. I don't think that's what they were trying to do. Never. I'll give them that much grace that there was they were very problematic, and then a lot of ways, but they weren't trying to establish any sort of cult they didn't. They didn't necessarily, but just the way people behave, you know, you felt watched you felt like what were they doing? Well, there was some weird stuff. They had all these all night prayer, meeting things. And then some of the avenues put on this thing. If you ever see in your community of revelation seminar, that's 100% said Davines. Okay, that's amazing facts or, or

Arline  12:03  
I've seen that

Racquelle  12:05  
stuff. Yes. That's revelation. So that's, that's a relation seminar. And that's simply evidenced. And so we were part of helping out in the community with some ministers that were coming to do that. And so this one guy, he did this one portion of how some Davin has tried to explain Daniel and Revelation, prophecy breakdown, and he didn't, he wasn't very good at presenting was very confusing. And so my husband Michael had said, just made a statement that we were in a primitive Church was like what we should do, he made a critique, like saying that I probably didn't come across well, we could probably the past certain people just piled on him. It was really weird. And they were like, Oh, you're you know, you're I can't even remember he'll he can tell you the words better. But they just really had this thing. And we just started feeling really weird and uncomfortable. And we left early and I have family that lives in the state. So we just kind of visited them and came home plus I was founded I was pregnant down there. And I was starting to need to know about me even in April is tough. I live in Georgia. So we were in Phoenix city. Columbus, Georgia, Phoenix City, Alabama, right on the corner. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it was so we were just decided to leave and come home. I started to feel really the pressure very deeply of I was trying so hard to emotionally connect with it. Yeah. But always really struggled with that. Like I was really started with actually feeling any sort of presence of God or that my, my prayers were going anywhere. I felt I never felt surely of salvation. And I, I just I remember thinking like, if I'm not, if I'm doing all this for nothing, if I'm doing all this and then not saved anyways, why am I doing this? But I still had these deconstructed at that point, it was more just like, Screw it. I'm leaving. I I'm not even why am I bothering like, like, I might as well just live my life how I want to and if I'm going to be lost Anyways, if there's, if you know, you know. And so for many years, we were sort of out of it. We have two kids, I guess when my son was born, we still weren't there. They're about four years apart. I had my daughter when I was 20. I had my son when I was 24. We still weren't really in it so much. And then we had moved away. We are living in this small town where it like my husband's parents lived in we moved out to Vancouver, British Columbia. And our kids were getting older and I think partly because we had never really yet deconstructed it. There was still that call. In a sense, right? There's all that call especially when you really grew up with something and you really grew up with a deep sense of doctrine ation that this is the right thing or that will ultimately you you do want to go to heaven or you don't want wouldn't be lost or, or those kinds of things and you think, Oh, I'm not doing right by my children or something by not teaching? Yes, yes. So we did start going to church sporadically. So even I'd say in the last see my, my daughter is 35. My son is 31. So probably probably in the last 20 years, it's it's been differing levels of in and out in and out of it. And being disillusioned still, I never felt really close with the church community, though they were never a welcoming place. So that was never placed. I felt like I had a home even though but I still thought, well, I should be trying to find it, or I still should be figuring it out. Yeah, and I just started to get just, just over the years, I started to get more and more progressive in my own ideas. And I was moving in and out of where I, this is really short, and I'm trying to keep this distinct but

Arline  15:58  
no, you're fine.

Racquelle  16:01  
It was like, I never really felt like I had a home or family in church. So that was leaving to go there. Because I know that's a thing for some people is they really feel a pain in leaving when they deconstruct because they're leaving their community i i was always struggling with like, I wanted to find that but never found it in there at all. Yeah. I didn't feel connected with those people. I didn't find them terribly well. There's a person here and there. But it was all it was it was a bit of a strange, toxic bunch. There was a lot of weird history to the church. And then just i There were certain shifts we had when you grew up some families love people vegetarian, not everybody is it's not? Yes, I

Arline  16:45  
didn't know that I have a friend. Yeah,

Racquelle  16:48  
it's not an absolute thing a lot. There's a lot of people who, even in the states consider those conservative because it's too conservative is a little bit different in the States. And it is in Canada, although it's changing a lot of here, too. A lot of people still do that what they call the clean meats based on the Levitical clean versus Yes, unclean laws. And then there are people who are vegetarian. And then the way it was spoken of in the EG white writings was like, eventually we would be moving off of all animal products, because as you know, the world gets more corrupt and blah, blah, blah, we should be moving to completely cleaned diets, a lot of wellness, a lot of the wellness stuff that was coming up in the 1800s is mixed in with messages and stuff, a lot of pseudoscience and stuff. But we have been primarily vegetarian because I grew up both. And just for my own has been an animal lover, I tend tended to be primarily vegetarian. And then we made that decision probably about 1518 years ago to be vegetarian fully. Because we weren't eating a lot of meat anyways, we always grew up, I always grew up eating a mixture of some days, some days we didn't, my kids have grown up with it like that, too. And then we became vegan. And now, that wasn't part of our churches thing. Although there are some avenues to do our plant based. There's this more religious stance mine was mine was more ethics and more rights. And that's what made it stick for me. Because back when my kids were young, and my my husband and I got more into the fringe Adventism we were plant based for a couple of years. I didn't stay that way. Because just whatever, a lot of reasons. But I found that when I made that choice, and I and my compassion, sort of, I've always been sort of an empath and more of an empathetic person. But when I made that choice, just it opened up my world up more to even more and more social justice issues and compassion. And I started to view things differently with how our church oriented itself to a number of things. And I think a lot of it started with the LGBTQ issue. That wasn't something that was it wasn't something that was talked about a lot like, like I know, in the I think in the evangelical church, it's really focused on avenuewest theology is pretty similar, you know, like, that's, you know, like, if you go to the how they stand it on our church website or whatever, like, it'll reiterate that, you know, marriages between a man and a woman you know that the biblical thing, but they didn't pound it from the pulpit, the way I think it's done in American evangelicalism, even though that's I think that's changing and I think it was probably different in the States. But growing up in Canada wasn't I've heard from other people in the States, it was a little more so but I didn't grow up. I didn't grow up hearing a lot about it. I just knew the opinion about it. Yeah. And that bothered me because I started especially being part of animal rights you do you meet a lot of gay people that are doing amazing things, who are compassionate, wonderful people. And none of that started with making sense to me. And then another another big catalyst for me was the violence of the Old Testament, the New Testament, that became a huge thing like I, yeah, that was a huge, that was a huge thing. For me, that was a huge problem that I couldn't reconcile for myself, in a belief in God. And I do want to say, that part of part of how I grew up, I had, my father was very radical in a lot of ways in his religion, he would go in and out of weird religion. So I'm going back to this because I'm gonna tell you about myself. He had, he was a conspiracy theorist, 100% Oh, wow. And I found that all my brothers and I, my two brothers, and I have been definitely more likely to be like, I was a 911, truther. They're kind of for a while. And I definitely was anti backs for a number of years. And I found that I was more inclined to conspiracy the night and I think that's true with a lot of a lot of, and we're seeing that play out in the world right now that that's because the more magical thinking I think you accept, yes. And I found this too. I'm finding this with a lot of avenues that I've watched. Because I have a few people I haven't been for you for you for years now. But I've, but I have a few old classmates and different things on Facebook and stuff like that. And I've, and I've watched, you know, with Trump, and with him with COVID, I've watched and then you probably heard about the trucker convoys and stuff here in Canada. Remember that? So I've watched a lot of them be unfriended a lot of people, people that weren't posting they just needed, didn't need to see their stuff, right. And it's true of evangelical too, but sometimes I think even more of evidence, because we have a lot of Magical Thinking in the sense that we've accepted this idea of a prophet. So to me that even seems like you would even be more susceptible to some really strange ideas. That's interesting. Yeah. So hook line, and sinker and the hole in our hole. And really, a lot of people. I'm a member of a few X SD, Facebook groups and stuff like that. And we've we've kind of talked about it as being or like, there was an also an X SDA Reddit subreddit group that, you know, someday having this basically started out as conspiracy theory, because it started out with this idea of, oh, well, you know, it's the second year that the Great Awakening, and Jesus is gonna come and they send it down, and they were disappointed. And then they switched. And then they've made up this whole theology around why that didn't happen. And what really happened, something took place in the heavenly sanctuary. There's all this big story about it, that I'm not going to explain, that would take forever. But anyways, so I had been sort of involved in that too, like in my brain, I, I even watched some old Alex Jones videos back in the day about, you know, Bohemian, Bohemian Grove. I mean, I've not watched it for like, good 20 years or more, but you know. So I think because of that, I think, because of that mindset of that magical thinking and being cling to that, I find when I see Adventism, that there's this very specialness, feeling. And I think it's even more so than even a lot of just just Christians, because it's so indoctrinated into the mother denomination, but growing up, and especially if you start really getting more serious about and learning about learning your faith, as we did, there was this very much, you are very much. They're the remnant church. Yeah,

Arline  23:40  
yeah, you're the chosen one, the leftover, the ones that before

Racquelle  23:43  
the end of time, and we are the ones with this, the most important message to mankind before Jesus comes that kind of thing. So I think that that also makes you more susceptible to compute to conspiracy theories, because, well, as we know, it's got nothing to do with intelligence, because I consider myself a pretty intelligent, very intelligent person. That's very true. And I do have critical thinking a lot of other realms. But they play into that specialness, too. We know that even there was I remember reading a really good article about like, how sometimes really intelligent people can be more susceptible to conspiracy theories, because they're so good at talking themselves, or the justifications or like talking themselves into it or rationalizing it or, or and then harder to get out because, you know, the whole sunk cost fallacy and like, how could I have been duped or all that kind of stuff, right. So as I started sort of confronting and deconstructing certain ideas, my ideas of God or I, I was really struggling with any sense of like, a loving God or talk about that. I think I've heard even you you talk about that your own personal thing, but like a Thought that was there, you know, so many times, you know, I would pray or if I was going through different struggles with my kids or different things. I just had this intense feeling of like, I'm like, like my words are just going up to the roof. I'm talking to myself. Yeah. And so I was struggling with that. And because the oven's ism is, is probably a lot of critics say about it comes across as a very works oriented religion, even though we tried to say it's not theirs. It's very, very weird in there. There's there's been different movements to try to focus on Jesus and everything we're about, you know, whatever. One of my movements towards sort of less Adventism a little more progressive was Greg Boyd. I don't know if you've ever heard of him.

Unknown Speaker  25:45  
I know the name. I don't know. Yeah, he's

Racquelle  25:48  
a minister of a big church out in, I think, oh, soda or something I can't remember. Okay. He's less than different. He wrote a book called The Myth of a Christian nation. And he lost like, 1000 members of his church after he wrote that book, sermons. Wow.

Arline  26:04  
Okay, so at least props to him. I don't know what the books about but even just the title.

Racquelle  26:09  
Yeah, it's very anti the idea of that. Yeah. Yeah. It's actually it actually is it holds up, it's still a really good book. And I started listening to some of his sermons where he really tries to focus on love. And he's, he's very, he's done a whole series on, you know, the, the context and the MIS interpretation of not having women in leadership and all of that kind of stuff. He's, he's brave. Okay. So I started listening to a lot of his stuff and had different ideas about our church. And, and, I mean, I'm still sporadically going, but it's so funny because I was, I think I was sort of one of those physically and mentally out people for a lot of years before I actually fully deconstructed part of listening to this podcast, haystacks in hell. It's in the next Adventist podcast. The guy who went who started it, he had deconstructed, and he had started listening to this podcast, but it's only an archive, they had done this back, the two women had started this podcast called Seven atheists. Back in 2015, there was had run from, I think, 2014 2017 2018. So prior to I mean, I wish I could go back I wish I was in thing there and listening to it real time. But so I went back to the archives, and I've listened to all of the episodes because it just felt like, ah, you know, when somebody and grows up the same as you, even if it's slightly different, yes, it's really meaningful to be able to laugh or think or it feels like you're almost having a conversation with an old friend, because you always knew that weird church that you grew up in, and the weird little quirks of it and things like that. But one point they made, I thought was so perfect. And it was a way I often thought about it in a sense, but they articulated well, it really well is that there's a couple different ways people leave the church, they either actually deconstruct, and either they just deconstruct and they go to other denominations, or they deconstruct completely and become unbelievers. Or they kind of just leave it but they've never really looked at it. They've never, they've just walked away because of like, like I did when when my when I was just feeling what's the point of all this, but I never, I never, I just felt like I was lost. And I couldn't connect with God. And I just felt it was I felt it was a problem with me. Yes, and yes, not so much God and I was I was at fault, right? Like, I couldn't figure out I was just a sinner, I was just lost. I've just a hopeless cause or whatever. And so you just kind of go do your own thing. And you're it's all it was kind of there to the back your mind, but you're not really, you're not really dealing with it. So and I've noticed this in like old school classmates that were not religious at all growing up, but they're kind of more so now is that when you don't do that, when you don't confront it, and you don't deconstruct it, you don't look at the criticisms of it and like figure that out. Because the indoctrination is so strong, because especially if you grew up in any went to church school in it like I did, and a lot of these other kids do. When something happens in life, and I've seen this with my younger brother. He like a life and death situation or older brother passed away. And my younger brother has a really serious heart attack and some things happened, right? Or you have children, some for some people that either takes them away from faith because no hell are they going to raise their kids the way they work. So I've heard those stories. Yeah, for that on the podcast. Or you think oh my god, I have to get back to church. I have to I'm not doing anything. I'm not raising my child in the way that he should go kind of a thing right. So unless they deconstructed something life as they get older, confronting death confronting change, oftentimes, it'll it'll take them back

Arline  30:01  
Yeah, especially if they don't go if they don't go anywhere else to find the things that the right church used to fill. Yeah, I

Racquelle  30:09  
think so I think that's kind of where I was at for a lot of years. And not really not really not feeling comfortable with it, looking into certain things, having conversations with my husband about how much I didn't. I struggled with certain things. He didn't feel comfortable with many things. We had some conversations about that. Whether whether we agreed with all of it, but that we still were going to be connected with, you know, faith in some way or whatever, right. And then, it was weird. It's, I don't even remember what it was I came across, but we are in Mexico, with with his mother who brought his mom and dad with us. And I was just Googling something. I was looking up some vegan recipe or something. And I came up to this lady's blog, who was dumbed down, she was so Christian, but she was excellent. So it was she she had a big she was still vegan, and she was she had a recipe blog, but she had written this article something about why she wasn't an Adventist. And what she was just talking about deconstructing. And her reasons were like, Yeah, I get what you're saying, like, but they weren't, she wasn't leaving Christianity, but I was like, Oh, it got me thinking. And yeah, I can't even I can't even remember exactly what she said. But I resonated with some of it. It was to do with the expectations of the community, how they kind of use you and abuse you and they don't they don't take to critique Well, or it was it was a bunch of different things. Right. I was like, Yeah, okay. Yeah, I really resonate with that. And I she had a Facebook community which she sends archived, because it was given as as, as religious things can do get a little on people. And she just said, I don't even have the energy right, but energy for it anymore. And she's just kind of shut down. But this one guy had commented on there saying, Oh, I have this podcast and I'm an accent. So I started listening to his podcast, I stopped because he started getting a little bit weird after Trump, but so but, but it was interesting just to listen to because he also he's covering certain of the taboo topics like criticizing the prophet or, or what does, because we have these we have this sense in our church that we really are the ones who understand. Hmm, we have the keys of the mysteries of Daniel and Revelation, what they really mean, right? We we know it's been given to Okay. Yeah, oh, yeah. No, it's very, we have the interpretation, we have figured it out. We have the light, God gave us the light through our Prophet and we know when we, we can not the time of Jesus coming, but we've got we've got the whole thing figured out what what revelation means. And so he was critiquing that when he was going through some of like, what a lot of modern scholars know now to be the context of those books. And when you start to look at the history in the context of them. Now, this was all around the time of Trump and I know a lot of people have spoken, like, watching their churches, follow up to Trump and disillusion them. That didn't happen to me because I was already thought the people are a little bit crazy. Every understood, I though, it didn't surprise me that people did that. Yeah. It was already understood how lunatic Christianity could be. But I still didn't think necessarily Christ, the idea of Christ was bad or that it's that No True Scotsman fallacy of like, they have it figured out, they're not really

Arline  33:22  
good. They're not the true Christians. If they were, they wouldn't think this way. Yes,

Racquelle  33:26  
right. Or even not just so much that it's just like, they're not really living their faith. They have it. It's a phony God, whatever. Anyways, so that didn't really propel my decontrol because of my big deconstruction sort of already started again, like with the LTV, GTB. And the violence in the Bible issues and things like that. So for years, for years, even before I started looking at these books, I wasn't I didn't have any sort of personal, you know, relationship or or study thing, or I wasn't really praying it. I was trying to make sense of it all in my head, still feeling guilty that I wasn't partly like, they're still pretty much just living my life for the most part, but it was still there. You know, we weren't really attending church. We're still occasionally but it was just radically I was very disillusioned with the church. There was some weird political shenanigans going on there with some of the people how they were treating this pastor that I'm still friends with. He's not in the church anymore, but he's still a Christian. And I would only go occasionally, because I sing. And I would they would ask me to sing special music sometimes, or I would help with the praise team. Sometimes when I wasn't really, I felt kind of like a hypocrite doing those things because I wasn't really

Arline  34:41  
super understanding.

Racquelle  34:44  
So once I actually started the motion and moved fairly quickly,

Arline  34:49  
ah, that's interesting.

Racquelle  34:51  
Like I started listening to this when I started listening to this one guy's podcast. Then I read this book by Rachel Held Evans, which I don't remember the title but it was about the Bible kind of To inspire,

Arline  35:00  
maybe inspire is a black and white cover.

Racquelle  35:04  
No, you know, when I listened to it, it was more about her kind of. I don't know if it was that one but it was more about her reimagining the by like taking back the Bible for herself and like looking at the Bible stories and reinterpreting them and making them meaningful. But yeah, I really liked her zoos. I think at this point when they really I think she'd already passed away, which is really sad. But

Arline  35:28  
she was on the list of women I couldn't read. Like she was this like, not erotic, but really close. And it wasn't until she had passed away. And I didn't know much about her. And then when I was deconstructing, but didn't know that's what was happening. I started reading Pete ins and some other some more liberal people. And she was one and I read Inspire. I don't know if that's the same book, but it was the first time now it's okay. She she has a few I don't remember all of them. But um, but I read Inspire. And it was the first time I really, like realized how much of the Bible, I had been taught to see it a certain way, rather than just letting it be like, poetry or a really cool story or an art. Oh,

Racquelle  36:11  
it was inspired. It was He was sleeping giants walking on water and loving the Bible. Yes. Yes. So good rates. Yes.

Arline  36:20  
And it was so good. And it did. It was like, okay, I can just let the Bible be what it is. Eventually, I was like, Okay, I do think it's just a bunch of stories like the other the other ancient myths, but it was a good it was it was such a good book. It was and I listened to it on audio as well. Yeah, go ahead. And

Racquelle  36:37  
I think it might have been her reading it actually, if I if I have to go back. Yes. It was so good. It was such a good book. Yeah, I was I was in and so that was an eye for me. The progressive books that I read prior to her would have been the Greg Boyd books, because he had written and he listened to a whole sermon series on him about the Getting back to the idea of love. And that our job is to love not to judge and how that's actually all these other sins in the Bible. And the biggest one was judging other people. So I'd already sort of been going in this different route than my own church was like, or whatever. So then I read her book. And then while I was kind of listening to this other podcast, and then I just started looking at the criticisms about the critics of my own church, I had had come out of my church, I had criticized it that I had never read before. Talk about the nose, those were the nose, right? Oh, not people not to the way that say Scientology is right, because we are told that we're suppressive people or something, and we're not. And we're not excommunicated, or anything like that. But it's a, you don't want to listen to those books. Because it'll lead

Arline  37:46  
you astray, which look where we are.

Racquelle  37:50  
So I still didn't read any of the books, but I just started looking at websites that share some of that information. So then I and then I did read one book of looking into the Prophet and some of the lies and whatever around that. Yeah, so that was a big thing to actually critique the faith. At this point, I still, I wouldn't say didn't believe in the idea of a god. But it wasn't really sure what that God looked like I wasn't, I was in a sort of a state of limbo of what did that mean? Because I didn't believe in the Adventism. Or I was really doubting it. I still kind of thought, Okay, we have the Sabbath, right, or things like that. But it was still sort of loose on that. Like, I wasn't sure that I even believe the Bible I I was starting to understand that the Bible has been misinterpreted and what what does that all mean? I hadn't even read it yet. But but then I saw I read a bunch of critiques on Adventism first, because I had to look at my own church because had been so deeply grilled into me that we are the truth. I had to look at the critics of that first. That was a that was a big piece for me. And as I was reading all this, I'm sharing it with my husband. So luckily, we did this together. I drove it, but he was originally doing his own thing. He was looking into Buddhism thought and things like that, that made more resonance with him because he wasn't really connecting with the faith either. Even though part of us we still kind of thought, Oh, they've got the certain interpretations Bible, right. They're just living it wrong. And we don't we can't relate to how they're living it or doing it. And then I read this book by Israel Finkelstein, there's another co author of I can't remember his name called the Bible on Earth. It's older this like it's, it's older. I mean, Bible scholars have known this and this is another thing I thought of when I after I read it, it was like they've known this for so long. Yeah, this has been so No, I never knew. You know, I never. I just recently found out that Bible scholars for like 50 years didn't have said no, it didn't exist. I mean, not Noah Moses never existed, like those are all stories. I mean, I grew up in a very literalist tradition, like we believe in a Sunday confession. Where they're young earth creationist. Well, good. We have to because

Arline  40:11  
I was gonna say you'd have to be happy

Racquelle  40:13  
because you Sunday was one that they saw that wouldn't make sense outside of that, that paradigm, right? So I read this book, the Bible on Earth, and it was talking about, yeah, the Bible on Earth, or it's called the Bible on Earth. Archaeology is new vision of ancient Israel and the origin of its sacred texts by Israel Finkelstein, and Neil Asher, silver, Superman Silverman. And that was going through that was written back and like the 20s, like 2000 2001. And he was just talking about the archaeology and what they were find dnn. And he was talking about how the archaeology had been done up until more modern times of like, the Bible and the spade, right? You go to the archaeology art to find what's there. And so they would find things, you know, how we do we twist things, right? We, yes, we aren't actually looking for truth. We're looking to confirm what we already think. And so we'll find it if that's what we're looking for. Right. So that he's archaeology had been done so much by that by people who are believers where they're Jewish with a Christian and so they would find things that seemed but when you look deeper, no, that didn't it contradicted and it did the record didn't bear out the physicality didn't bear out. And I just remember reading that book going, okay. All right. He talked about the the real origins of the kingdom, how the Joshua, all the all the conquest never happened, all that was just mythology that they that they had vented about there, it was really their origin story. And where that came about, during which now I think, you know, it was just their origin story that kind of came out with King Josiah and like, the sixth century or something like that. And, and I was like, Okay, wow, like, I'm telling my husband all over. I'm reading this. And I don't remember when this was, it was, it was a few years ago. Now. It was a couple of years ago now. Or I just kind of I do remember having an exact moment where I thought and I learned more about the creation, sir. And I was watching other videos to like I was, I found this great. YouTube channel called holy Kool Aid. Oh, I've heard of it. So we were watching different things like that. I don't think I had been listening to any of the podcasts as far as atheist podcast yet. Maybe I was I, it's hard to remember exactly. Because it's all kind of tumbling, right. Like, you're, you're doing all these things. And you haven't? Yeah,

Arline  42:33  
it's all coming apart. Yeah. Right.

Racquelle  42:36  
And you're just like, it's all like, all these new all ideas. And I just do remember having this thought, where I was like, Okay, well, obviously, the creation, the Adam and Eve story is a myth. If it's a myth than all of its bullshit, it doesn't it doesn't hold up. Like if, if there's no Adam and Eve, a fall, all of that story doesn't make any sense. The whole story of Jesus doesn't make any sense. And I'm like, I don't believe any of this anymore. I don't, I don't believe it. It's all just their mythology story. Like I already learned about, you know, how the Epic of Gilgamesh and stuff and I, there was lots of stuff that I was getting from different places. I had watched vide videos and talks by what's her first name South Africa, Polo. She's a she's Greek, but she teaches that she teaches New Testament. No, no Old Testament and Biblical stuff. At University in England, so she's British, but great. Oh, man, she's that she's a Bible scholar. And like, she just likes the Bible as far as literature, right? Like, yes, yes, absolutely. She still thinks it's interesting. But she knows she just talks about how it's taken out of context. And she's one of those. And also, I had read during this time, and I'd read Christopher Hitchens books. God is not great.

Arline  44:00  
Goddess, not great. Yes. That was on. I also listened, I listened to that one as well on audio and it was fantastic. I was angry for a long time listening to it. It was the first it was my first exposure beyond like, the Catholics, you know, with the Inquisition killed lots of people. And then the Puritans and the witch hunt, you know, my, like, basic, bad things Christians had done. But this was like, expanded my understanding of how just religion in general has harmed so many people and made lies. I'm just, yeah, a lot. It was excellent.

Racquelle  44:34  
No, it was great. And, and I and I don't really like to Hitchens for a long time, just as like a because I, for years, I was I was one of those people who was able to mock the silliness parts of my faith, like I could laugh. I wasn't, I didn't understand the people who got angry. You know, I had no problem laughing. The hypocrisy or the insecurities or I could take a joke. We'll put it that way, like, that's fine. My daughter's fiance of 10 years. He's an atheist. And we can laugh and talk. And I had no problem with that, or whatever. I mean, I was already sort of, you know, anyway. But But it's funny. And I also then I also read Richard Dawkins book, The God Delusion. And I, what the funny thing is, I had started to listen to the audiobook years ago, and it was him and his wife who did who read it. So and I, I had been curious. I had heard some, and I was like, I'd like to, I want to know what the arguments are. Like, I want to know, I'm curious to know. But as I listened to I was still very much in the paradigm of like, Oh, he's just, you know, like, and then I, as I'm listening to him, I found his voice so arrogant, that he was being really arrogant and condescending. And you're, you're in a certain type of Christianity, but that's all Christianity or whatever, right? And then when I really listened to him, like, no, he sounds very reasonably, then some. I think I still think he can be an arrogant house. But that's a whole other thing. But

Arline  46:03  
yes, that's, uh, yep, that's its own podcast. But it's so

Racquelle  46:08  
funny how I had that experience of trying to read it like maybe 15 years ago, and then actually read it. Again, giving you the second chance going? Oh, yeah. That my, the way I felt about it was way different than how I asked how I feel about it now. So

Arline  46:26  
yeah, now like, where are you now? How did because you've read the four horsemen, or at least two of them so

Racquelle  46:34  
well, and I did watch their conversation that they had, there was like a two hour conversation that has listened to that. If you put it up, put a label on it. I don't have to have a label. I'm gonna say it. But if I do label it, I would say agnostic, agnostic atheists, because I, my brother and I were having this conversation one time because he can't he's just so baffled at the idea that how could you know this? And now you don't believe I mean, you know, the truth. Like, you grew up with this, you knew it more than I did. And I'm like, hey, yeah. I knew a lot more than you did. So give me a little credit

Unknown Speaker  47:08  
here. Good point. Yeah. But we

Racquelle  47:11  
were having this conversation finally, because he just it was just baffled him. And he was just like, you know, and I said, Look, I am I, I am not saying for sure that I know. Right? Because he was trying to he was trying to bring up because he was bringing up the intelligent or, you know, design argument of like, I can't remember that Stephen Meyer guy or whatever, who works for those discoveries. I can't remember. It's just, you know, who tries to make science design of it not. It's just one of those. One of those intelligent design organization that tries to look scientific in their creationism in here was just Well, what about this with this with us? I'm like, Okay, look. I'm not saying that I know everything. I don't know, I'm not a scientist. I wish I will learn on science science growing up, we should have Too bad we didn't. But I said, so. I'll concede. I'll concede to you that, okay, there could have been an intelligent start to everything. That's a million steps to get into a Christian God. That God does not take you to that. So that, even if I can, even if I can see the possibility of an intelligent creator of something out there, that doesn't take me to the Bible.

Arline  48:26  
Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

Racquelle  48:29  
And so where I'm at now. Yeah, I mean, I still I'll go through bouts where I don't want to hear any more religious stuff. I feel like it also Amin each brain, so I still like to hyper focus on certain things for sure. But also, I do still really like to like, I can't remember someone else was talking about it. I can't remember if I was listening to someone or if someone talked about it on the deconversion on this Facebook page, but something along the lines of it's still helpful for me still, to learn about it. Because I don't feel like I really learned about it right, like so it's still helpful for me to listen to say Bart Ehrman, or, or I sometimes listen to the experience Colin show, although sometimes that's the lowest common denominator people get phoning in with their arguments. I still, I listened to the Thinking Atheist with Seth Andrews. I listened to the friendly podcast. I've read or I've listened to and I want to go back and look at it again. There's this atheist guide to the to the Bible in Volume One and Two written by this assyriology Oh, have you listened to the podcast at all the

Arline  49:42  
I have done his Great Courses Plus on the New Testament how Jesus became God, but I've not listened to the podcast.

Racquelle  49:48  
So he has this new podcast well, not new new cut podcast, but he's got a podcast called Misquoting Jesus based on his work. So his co host, Megan Lewis are the one kind of interviews in They're there the format is she can interview him and talks. Her husband Josh Bowen. Isn't there both is Siri ologists. So Josh, Josh Bowen had grown up in evangelical Christian, and he's deconstructed out and he has written this volume one and two of the atheist guide to the alternative. Very cool. Yeah. So I've read that and he just kind of puts them in context and story, he tells you the, the overarching story of the thing and then kind of goes into the detail. And then also part one of the part of that part because again, I grew up in a very literalist church, I started I started reviewing this and what kind of even before I think I had my epiphany about not believing or maybe just after I started reading this, I think it's a Nature article called The Impossible voyage of Noah's Ark. And it just kind of goes through each different aspect, like the the animals, the the environment of the water, like all these different aspects. I think it's a very long thing like I have with you're going, oh, man, how do they ever believe this? Like, what? Oh, yeah. Yeah, just didn't think it through, you know,

Arline  51:06  
even if we're not explicitly told them to, not to ask questions like, like, for me, the the Exodus, when I found out the Exodus, there's no historical, linguistic, archaeological, any evidence that it happened? It was like, wait, I had never questioned because I just assumed there had to be evidence, because why else would all these smart people believe this stuff? Like it? And so then it was like, Wait, there's, there isn't evidence, like any evidence that this was really how things happen? And And I'll say, Oh, I don't know. Yeah. Because so even if it wasn't that no one told me to question I didn't even think that it needed to be questioned. I just assumed it had to have some kind of evidence behind it. When

Racquelle  51:46  
something is taught was that surety among people, people who do have have like, you know, PhDs or whatever rights in theology and theology or whatever, right? And you're thinking, Well, okay, you've you've come across all the arguments. So

Arline  52:01  
you've done all the work. Now I just can trust your judgment. And also, you know,

Racquelle  52:08  
Han, there's a particular, there's a particular mindset that's drilled into you when you grow up in a young earth creationist group as well. So it's very different, I think, I think, and Bart Ehrman said this, and a few different people have said this, like Matt, Matt Dillahunty, has said this and said, this is like, he feels like fundamentalists are actually more honest. interpretation of the Bible, because they are, he says, I prefer progressives, because obviously, ideologues ideology, I want all of us to I'd rather people think that way. And I agree, and my son and I have had this conversation where it's like, because my kids have probably been atheist. They've been a good influence. They've been great. I really appreciate my children. I prefer that's where people were at if you're going to be a believer, because I, like I think Seth Andrews has talked about like, I and I know other people have to versus I have more in common, you know, ideologically with those people than sometimes some atheists, depending on where they are, as far as humanism goes, or things like that. And they're my biggest allies. But But, but in a purely philosophical thinking of the consistency of belief. There's more hoops you're jumping through to make make that there's, there's to me, there's more. There must be more cognitive dissonance to be there than to be a literalist.

Arline  53:32  
And just let it say what it says. And if it makes you look like a bigot, but there, that's God's word. You just gotta

Racquelle  53:40  
love the Bible. What's that song? God centered, I believe in that settles it. So cringe. Well, yeah, I think and I think to that, to be honest, when I had that little moment of epiphany, and even since then, I've had those weird moments. I don't know if that's been for you, where I'm like, Oh, my gosh, when I'm dead, I'm just dead. You know, I've had those rare little moments of like, Have you ever had that? I don't know. Like, we're just like, oh, it's, I think that's this idea of like, just being gone and gone. And because you're just gone and nobody remembers you're not thought of or whatever. Because really, you're not going to know but it's just still it's just so so weird. Because you've been raised thinking and to be honest, I never felt certain that I was going to have an either like I never felt that that's part of what led me in and out in the first place. But just the idea that it can be possible, right. But other than that, I don't know. It's like, how did I describe it to my I think I described this my husband's like, I do feel kind of like a weight off my shoulders. They don't have to carry there was definitely more peace. I felt I feel fortunate. I like because I you know, I've been interacting with some people on the Facebook page where I can see this massive struggle and I feel really bad for pupils. It's really hard a lot of fears and I didn't grow up with a fear of hell. That's something we we grew up with in seventh day Adventism because they elation ism. But I did grow up with a lot of end time before the spheres like there's a lot of fear mongering around that. So I did grow. I didn't have those fears. I was afraid of that time, but I didn't wasn't afraid of burning forever. Because to me, even as a kid, I'm like, How could you believe in a God that you thought burned you forever? Like that seem completely vile to me? Yeah. Because I didn't grow up with it like I did. To me that made no sense like you, then you still think that's a loving God that that's, that was so strange to me. So I see people that are struggling with that fear that I feel really bad. And also, I think it would be really difficult if your spouse is not on the same page as you because I'm lucky that I've had that person to talk to all through this has been pretty much on the same page with me, in fact, and I've had the kids to talk to, you know about it. And I found the different communities, you know, like with with the group, and my whole, my whole being wasn't wrapped up in church, like, that is so much harder for people who are that's their community, that's everything to them. That wasn't for me, that was actually it was a struggle for me to feel connected. I wanted that, but I didn't feel it. So it's been much easier to sort of deconstruct once I finally did it, because I didn't have those things. pulling me back in I already felt pretty disconnected for from it for a lot of years. So it wasn't really hard in that, on that front. You know, the guilt or the the indoctrination still was a challenge because I'm and I'm 55. And it feels like oh my gosh, it took me this. Like it's been probably about five years of definitely about three years of not believing at all but like, and I think it's often because I look back and I see younger kids, or they're doing it somewhere in their 20s. Even at this just like, man, as soon as I started to really look at these beliefs, I couldn't believe him like, Oh, I didn't die. But I'd really never looked at it. Because I had a lot of other trauma going on in my life that I needed to deal with. I didn't have the bandwidth.

Arline  57:25  
Yes. You didn't have the leisure time to read all these books. Yeah, I've heard other people say it. Like there's a lot of privilege to dish deconstructing your religious beliefs, because it's like, and to be able to live as someone who doesn't have religious beliefs, because there are a lot of people who, they don't even have time to think about that, because they're just trying to survive. And the

Racquelle  57:45  
young person there was there was a lot there was a lot there was I had to deal with trauma before I dealt with religion, because there was just like, formerly trauma and, you know, abuse and stuff like that. That was that took up a lot of my bandwidth. And you know, so I didn't I probably just that's probably one of the reasons I never really fully looked at that would have been a whole other angst to go through. normal teenage angst, so yeah, no. Oh, yeah, I remember what I was. I was I think I was listening to the thinking of this and stuff talked about that someone talking about, like, just feeling embarrassed that it took you this long or whatever. He's like, Nah, you got there. You know, you gotta remember the indoctrination that happens and how deep that can be. And yeah, I'm just glad. Glad where I'm at with it now. I'm glad my spouse is where I'm at with it. No. So being all out of it has helped in a lot of different ways. Part of part of COVID happening and watching Q anon happen, even though those things are things that I had already started to deconstruct. But someone on another pot on Facebook patient were had recommended this podcast called can spirituality. And they were they they were three, the three hosts were people who were involved more than New Age wellness community, and they were watching those people get really involved in conspiracies, and yes, huge overlap. Yeah, huge overlap. Yeah, they call it the new age to Kuhn on pipeline or whatever, right? Wow, did I saw a lot of I saw a lot of the connections or the similarities. It's not the word I'm looking for. But we'll go with similarities between the two ways of thinking whether it's New Age spirituality, or whether it's Christian spirituality, you get there pretty easily together, right? There's, there's definitely and you see that within the kuna community, so it was listening to them, because there's a lot of connections in the way that it's the thinking whether it's cold in the New Age cult, or it's cultish thinking in Christianity, thinking which I would say my church is very cultish even though I wouldn't call it a cult per se. It's a cult adjacent or culty or whatever you want to call it. It's helped me really arrange some of the ways I thought and be more critical in my thinking and get out of some of the conspiracy minded stuff and made me confront. Oh, that's not logical or this is why I think that way and I think I'm very fortunate because I, I don't think I could explain to someone else. How do you talk someone on the conspiracy there? I don't think I could tell you, even though I've come out of it. I don't know that I could, because I know what worked for me. But that was, that was only my own investigation that got me there. And why I don't know I'm not special. I don't I don't really know why I you know, unfortunate. I was I never would have gotten down the kuna thing, because I'd already moved away from that, that I was never the hardcore, every loopy conspiracy other certain level, right? But that was never, I never would have got like, I was already. I was already mortified. I was already disgusted by you know, the Alex Jones stuff of the Sandy Hook and all that kind of stuff. Like I wasn't there yet. I was still I was still antibiotics. It was one of the wellness for me that, you know, the wellness. The still the wellness mindset was in there for me like of like, you know, health is some personal virtue that you've attained, right? More than a lot of things, right? More communal aspects of it. And it was funny because one of the CO hosts he's really into what's neurology? Neurology? Neuroscience. Yeah, neuro psych, thank you. And in he actually talked about Ellen White, the profit of my church, as well as as, as related to frontal lobe epilepsy, because she had had a really bad head injury when she was young. And then started visions, but also she'd grown up in a very charismatic setting or whatever, even though we're not charismatic at all. Like, it's a weird story. But, um, and I was like, Oh, that's so interesting, right. And that if, and they, and they had, they had all come from wellness and the mindset and so it was there, it was really helpful to get me into actual science of pseudo science, you know, that was actually big. That was also a big help for me to, to see more clearly and to like, fully deconstruct that of my beliefs. Because I think when I started listening to NAMM 2020, I don't know if I decided absolutely, I was unbelievable. I was pretty close. Yes. So it was like, yeah, so that was also really helpful. Yeah, so that's kind of where I'm at. I feel a lot better about my perspective on life. As far as my own personal thoughts make the most sense, always. Because there's a lot of ugliness that still going on right now. Yes, that's very true. Yeah. So yeah, that's kind of I guess we're not within I, I would say, I'm much more at peace than I was when I was still trying to figure out whether I believed or not, or we're still stuck in church or faith or whatever. And I don't, just in the silliness, like, for instance, I got my first tattoo when I was still kind of on on the believer life. But they felt, even though I thought, I don't think there's anything wrong with it, like, biblically, or anything like that. But spending that kind of kind of money and my beard, like, am I going to be called to account someday, you know, for the waste of hundreds of dollars on something on you know what I mean? Stuff like that, that I see things at the back of my mind, which I can kind of go no go. I don't have to think about that anymore. Well,

Arline  1:03:27  
Raquel, thank you so much for telling your story. And girl you have read some books and listen to some podcasts and we will have so many recommendations. I love it. This is fantastic. So thank you, again for being

Racquelle  1:03:38  
on the email you a couple of things to email, try to remember some of them because I know it's probably I talked to you might not have been there. I would also I'll send you also if anybody's curious. It will be because you mentioned knowing you've seen amazing facts, things. You've probably heard of the owner Ross and Kerry podcast because I've seen that sometimes Okay, so they go into everything obviously. But they actually had a number of episodes I think I think it was Jessica on the Friendly Atheist podcast brought it up because she knows an avendus family and so she brought up how Ross and Carrie has actually gone through Amazing Facts revelation seminar, yes or no if any, if anybody's interested in knowing what avenuewest believe those are good episodes to listen to all I know that I'll send you the numbers the because it's there was like a few and then there's a break in between and because he he went to all the all the seminars, so I'll send you those and the haystacks. For anybody who's interested in who on the page might be evidence I can recommend some of those resources as well.

Arline  1:04:42  
Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it. My final thoughts on the episode. I have interviewed a few Seventh Day Adventist people and I have former Bible study friends that were SGA and a current friend who's SGA. And I feel like I just learned a ton today, from Rock Hill, about seventh day Adventism that I just didn't realize, when she talked about the magical thinking within seventh day Adventism the idea that like, they can just believe that this person was a prophet. And they can just believe that Well, the great disappointment was because of, you know, and then create some kind of story about a battle in heaven, which I'm pretty sure some Jehovah's Witnesses have told me about, which makes me wonder if they just, every time Jesus didn't come back, you had to come up with a story about something that happens in heaven, because it didn't happen here. I don't know. But just the magical thinking, the conspiracy theories, and then of course, with evangelicalism, Christianity in general, a past guest and a friend in the deconversion anonymous Facebook group, Lars Cade, has said so many times, and it's like stuck in my little brain, just believing stuff without any evidence. It makes sense that if you are religious or spiritual in some way, that if you don't have evidence for those things, but you believe them very firmly, then if there are other things like conspiracies that are taught to you, then it is very easy to believe those. That doesn't mean you always do. I mean, it just makes sense. I think another thing that stuck out to me was, like conspiracy theories, like it's not people who are not intelligent. I used to think it was gullible people who would get pulled into cults or conspiracy theories, but it really is just lots of different kinds of people. And it's hard not to feel special when you're the one with that special knowledge that somehow the rest of the world doesn't know about. Anyway, this was a fantastic episode I really enjoy getting to talk to iCal.

David Ames  1:06:58  
The secular Grace Thought of the Week is that the religious do not own gratitude. I'm one week late. But this is your yearly reminder that you can be grateful for people and to the people in your life without including a deity in that equation. If you're listening to my voice, you made it through Thanksgiving for those of you in the United States. Congratulations. I hope it wasn't too difficult, that can be very hard going back to family that can be even triggering, particularly with religious family that might try to make you feel like you don't have all of what it means to be human the ability to be grateful to be thankful and to have joy in your life. This is your reminder that you can be thankful to and for people and the religious do not own gratitude. Until next time, my name is David and I am trying to be the graceful atheist join me and graceful The beat is called waves by MCI beats. If you want to get in touch with me to be a guest on the show. Email me at graceful atheist@gmail.com for blog posts, quotes, recommendations and full episode transcripts head over to graceful atheists.com This graceful atheist podcast part of the atheists United studios Podcast Network

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