Content Warning: Sexual abuse, spiritual abuse, severe mental health disorders

Kyler’s story is one of “beauty from ashes”. He lives with dissociative identity disorder, a category of CPTSD. Kyler is one distinct personality in the “system”. The adults in his life abused him as a child—would not keep him safe—and so his brain stepped in and made a way to survive. 

Kyler watched the church fail him and his family over and over, refusing to help or even acknowledge the abuse and trauma. 

“This person who has PTSD has no clue where it’s from, has all this trauma, pain, and hurt…and the church just wants to throw Bible verses and actually doesn’t want to help you.” 

Today, Kyler is a completely different person than when he was young. He’s now free to embrace his whole self without shame and fear, and the future looks radiant. 

Links

988
https://988lifeline.org/

Recovering From Religion
https://www.recoveringfromreligion.org/

Secular Therapy Project
https://www.seculartherapy.org/

Recommendations

“Go have actual conversations with people.” 

Stormlight Archive series by Brandon Sanderson

Quotes

“If you want to lose your salvation…go to bible college. It’s the best way to do it.” 

“For me, deconstructing wasn’t so much…moments of research…it was more, moments of watching the church—for years—fail everybody, fail me, fail my family, just completely fail.”

“This person who has PTSD has no clue where it’s from, has all this trauma, pain, and hurt…and the church just wants to throw Bible verses and actually doesn’t want to help you.” 

“Fuck God’s plan.” 

“How can [God] say, ‘I have created you. I have a plan for you. I’ve done all these things!’ And then just go, ‘Oh well. I was there, but I didn’t do anything about it.’ That’s not a loving, caring god. That’s just a psychopath who enjoys watching things.” 

“Where [God] was real or not, whether he was the creator of the universe or not, I really didn’t care and I don’t care. I would rather, in a sense, burn in hell than spend eternity with that.” 

“[God] will never get another ounce of my praise.”

“It was amazing to see that when we just decided, ‘I’m done being a Christian,’ how much easier life got. Our anxiety dropped. Our depression dropped. Self-worth went up.”

“It’s really funny to see the non-christian community be more loving and more like what Jesus would have been than the Christian community ever was.” 

“[In fiction, you] journey with these characters, love these characters, cry with these characters, rejoice with these characters, and it gives you a space outside of trauma, a space outside of the shit that is the world sometimes…”

Interact

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https://gracefulatheist.com/2017/12/03/deconversion-how-to/

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https://gracefulatheist.com/2016/10/21/secular-grace/

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Attribution

“Waves” track written and produced by Makaih Beats

David Ames  0:11  
This is the graceful atheist podcast United studios Podcast Network. Welcome, welcome. Welcome to the graceful atheist podcast. My name is David, and I am trying to be the graceful atheist. I want to thank my latest supporter on patreon Jean, thank you so much for supporting the podcast, as well as existing patrons Curtis, Melissa, Susan Joseph, John Ruby, Sharon Joel, Lars Raymond, Rob, Peter, Tracy, Ginny, and Jason. Thank you all for supporting the podcast, it makes a big difference. If you are interested in having an ad free experience of the podcast, you too can become a patron at any level at patreon.com/graceful atheist. I'm very excited to announce that we now have merch. Our lean has gone through all the work to set up a merchandise shop with various logos for the graceful atheist podcast. You can get T shirts, mugs, and all kinds of things. The link will be in the show notes please check that out. Please consider joining our private Facebook group deconversion anonymous and become a part of the community. You can find us at facebook.com/groups/deconversion. Special thanks to Mike T for editing today's show. On today's show. First a content warning. Today's episode includes sexual abuse, spiritual abuse, and very complex mental health disorders. If you would find that difficult in any way, you may want to sit this one out. Arline interviews our guest today Kyler. Kyler suffers from dissociative identity disorder which is a form of SI PTSD. And this stems from the sexual abuse that he experienced as a child as well as the spiritual abuse that he experienced. In Tyler's words, his story is one of beauty from the ashes. Here is Kyler telling Arline his story.

Arline  2:18  
Kyler Welcome to the graceful atheist podcast.

Kyler  2:21  
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Arline  2:23  
I'm excited to hear your story. You and I have actually connected in real life through your wife. And yeah, I'm excited to hear your story. You and I were just talking before we started recording. Is there any background you want to give before I you know before I say okay, what Tell me about your spiritual life growing up?

Kyler  2:43  
Yeah, so I think that, like it's going to be kind of up to like my story kind of almost has two stories, in a way because so 2018 I was diagnosed with dissociative identity disorder, which for some people know it as multiple personalities. It's also sits in the C PTSD category, versus just PTSD. And so my story is a little different, because the first part of my life is almost seen from one perspective. And the second part of my life is kind of seen from another just via the way DoD works. And so there's kind of this what's the word I'm looking for? It's just it's just to kind of different perspectives where it's kind of like an on off switch in a way.

Arline  3:43  
Okay, I think people are going to resonate with your story regardless of yeah, oh, this, this will be awesome. See PTSD, but what does that students that's,

Kyler  3:53  
that's this essentially is essentially complex, PTSD, post traumatic stress syndrome. So that's kind of what they take something like di D, which is a diagnosis that PTSD fits in, but it's more so complex. It's just a complex version of it.

Arline  4:14  
Okay, I've heard and tell me if I'm wrong. I've heard Laura, Dr. Laura Anderson say, CPT, PTSD is like, there isn't a beginning and an end. It just, it's not like there's a traumatic event. It's like this. You can't know for certain when it started and ended.

Kyler  4:31  
Yeah. So where is it CPTSD like so specifically with DoD is usually an extended period of abuse, whether that's sexual, spiritual, physical. Oftentimes, it comes from the sexual abuse side versus the other ones, but it can. So it's an extended period of abuse, usually at a young age and so that That's so that's where you can't really pinpoint a day and go on this day. You know, it's just a build up of trauma.

Arline  5:12  
Okay, that makes sense. Okay. Well, Kyler thank you again for being here and tell us about the religious environment that you grew up.

Kyler  5:20  
I think I was one of those, like homebred Christians, you know, in a way, where, you know, you're the son of a wannabe worship leader, who's the son of a pastor, right? And I grew up very, you know, church from the beginning, baptized at a young age, all of that kind of BS that goes along with that, right. And so we started so like the first part of our, I guess life as a as a child was very much in the Nazarene church, which is kind of a lose your salvation. If you sin, don't ask God for forgiveness, you're probably sick and die, you're probably going to hell kind of deal. Oh, wow. Like not even like a you don't even get like a 24 hour kind of grace period, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's it's definitely a you know, every Sunday is a call to the altar every Sunday, you got to, you know, it's not quite Catholic, where, you know, you have to go in and talk to a priest, but very much a, you know, Sunday at the altar call, make you feel guilty. Then we, then we jumped on the reform train.

Arline  6:41  
So that's a big jump,

Kyler  6:42  
it is a big jump right to go from one to the other. Part of that is due to my parents getting kicked out of most of the churches we went to, for some reason, and I have my guesses as to why we got kicked out. But I'm not quite. I'm not quite sure. The reasons why we always had to leave. The few that I can remember, were mostly them yelling and screaming at people as we kind of left kind of deal. But then we went to Calvary Chapel, which Chuck Smith kind of this in the 70s I think it was kind of started evangelizing to the hippies kind of deal. And they're very, I looked up the word because I wanted to know what it was expository teaching. So instead of doing Yeah,

Arline  7:37  
it's not topical with like, you just go through the whole

Kyler  7:40  
book. All that fun stuff. So that's kind of the environment we grew up in as a kid in early adult was this kind of homegrown Christian you didn't really have a choice you were kind of saved out of you know, just living in a Christian home quote unquote, Christian home

Arline  8:09  
Am I right? Were you homeschooled also

Kyler  8:12  
Yes. Yeah. So homeschooled was added on to that so that adds a whole nother layer of Yes. We were we weren't like the you know, the long skirt. You know, homeschoolers, we like to think of ourselves as the cool homeschoolers when we were okay, but yeah, homeschool added a whole nother level. So obviously all my education came from a biblical background and a biblical you know, topics and you know, all the curriculum is biblical, all that stuff. So,

Arline  8:53  
oh, yes, you are not the first homeschool adult homeschool kid to be on here. Oh, heavens.

So is this high school college like, what's what's happening

Kyler  9:11  
all the way up until high school. We, in a way dropped out of school, but also didn't we had enough credits technically, to graduate but our mother would not let us and so she wanted us to do a whole nother year. And we said fuck that we're gonna do it. We weren't they. I didn't move with them. And I did the real stupid thing and went to Bible College.

Arline  9:41  
Oh, also not the first one.

Kyler  9:45  
I've gone to college. If you want to lose your salvation for anybody listening, that's a Christian go to Bible college is the best way the best way to do it.

Arline  9:53  
And why do you say that?

Kyler  9:55  
The the amount of Jesus that they throw at you is like like drinking from a fire hydrant. And so you just kind of get one you start to, I think dive into more of the the history of the Bible and you start to find more questions, or you start to learn about the Greek and all that and you start to go, Wait a second, this. This doesn't. That doesn't make sense. Like, yeah, as a regular Christian, I think you can just kind of see the top layer of things and not dive too deep. When you start to get into like, where did this come from? Where did that come from? You start to go ahead. Does that make sense?

Arline  10:44  
Yeah, that makes sense. I, I did not go to Bible college, I was not a Christian. I didn't grow up in it or anything. I became a Christian in college at a public university. So the heathens were all around me. But Jesus found me. And so I did not have that experience. But I have heard multiple people talk about like, you learn how to study the Bible. You learn exegesis, and hermeneutics and all this stuff, and then all of a sudden, it's there more questions come that don't have really satisfying answers,

Kyler  11:16  
have no satisfying answers. The problem is you, you start to realize that it's just a book written by people. And you start to really get into these questions that there the Bible College is trying to teach you one way, but you're starting to look at and go, but you don't have an answer to any of these other questions. I'm asking, right, like, I get what you're trying to teach me. But let's, let's hold up here and answer this question. And they're just like, ah, you know, trust God, and you're like, No, that doesn't work.

Arline  11:48  
And it's like this weird. Use logic and Bible study tools and all this on the one hand, but then when the questions get too difficult, it's like, Oh, you just have to trust the Lord. Like, I don't have a rule gets to pick Yeah, who gets to pick? Which questions get answered? And do I

Kyler  12:03  
use logic? And what do I do? That's probably what got me into the most trouble as a kid in the church to was always wanting to, to ask the why question, right of why, why this? Why that?

Arline  12:16  
Okay, so you went to Bible College? did was it? Was it a good experience? Was it not a great experience?

Kyler  12:23  
It was, it had, it was a lot of bad on some good, I think, I think they were like, it was bad to the point where like, the person of the Bible college, tried to get go as far as like controlling things like the, the relationship I was in with Lily, my wife at the time, when I would ask questions about our personal life and intimacy and you're just kind of like, oh, wow, it's kind of none of your, your business, you know, what I would do, but surprisingly, the missions trip that we did at the end was the best experience of Bible college that there was, it was a really cool experience for us. We went to Kyrgyzstan when it was overthrowing its government. And so we were there as the riots were happening and as as this government was being overthrown, so it was pretty cool to experience some of those things it was kind of like a nice this is the real world kind of experience looking back you know, obviously in the moment it was this great ministering opportunity right we're oh man the Lord blah blah blah this and that.

But looking back now I can go so it was a real world moment for us to just kind of go

learn a lot and look at the world and I think a different point of view it's kind of how I view that moment now versus you know, the Christian way you would view it in the moment

Arline  13:59  
Yeah, that's that's huge that's a country that does not come up in American news very often to know anything about what's happening so that's awesome that's

Kyler  14:08  
it's technically a third world country so it was there were some cool experiences of getting to see these nomadic people and getting to drink glacier water right out of mountains kind of do a natural hotsprings kind of thing but like the outside looking in it was it was a big I think real world moment for a very delayed you know, young man at the time

Arline  14:35  
Yeah, because homeschooling to Bible college to yeah completely different culture in a different on a different continent everything

Kyler  14:43  
yeah

Arline  14:52  
so you said that was at the end of Bible college

Kyler  14:55  
that wasn't the in the Bible College.

Arline  14:56  
Were you in literally married yet had or what happened? Next out

Kyler  15:00  
So, we got engaged while I was at Bible College. And so we had been dating for a while. And Bible college only kind of happened because I had planned to play baseball my whole life, but blew my knee in, in high school. And so kind of lost all the opportunities. I had to play baseball. And so we were kind of dating, we were dating, went to Bible college got engaged, and they got married the next year, I believe, yes, we got married the next year.

Arline  15:39  
You have to check the timeline.

Kyler  15:40  
The jag the timeline is terrible with dates, I'm terrible with dates due to just like numbers. And the a timeline for me can get very mushed up and very messy. Just due to the way D ID works, so

Arline  15:56  
Okay, so the DI D diagnosis did not come, you said till 2018. So what's happening in between these years? Like, is Christianity still working for you?

Kyler  16:05  
So this is kind of where I think the added that for me, deconstructing wasn't so much. Like these moments of research or moments of like, it was more a moment of watching the church for years fail everybody and fail, me fail, my family fail.

Just completely fail. And so during this time, there were there would have been three kids born. So two kids born, one was born after my diagnosis.

There was a lot of, I think, pain and hurt and anger on my side, and not knowing where to direct it. And not knowing where to, and not getting the answers out of the out of anybody, church world. Nothing. There were there was a suicide attempt, in a way, a very, not so much more of a suicidal ideation that was with the plan, and with a desire to do. I did have two attempts as a teenager that obviously failed. I'm not very good at it.

You know, look, you know, hindsight. 2020 I'm glad that I'm not over three. With that. So there were you know, there was a psych ward visit, and lots of attempted therapy. And then and then finally in 2008, some are sorry, 2018. There were the right people in the right place to kind of step in and help with what was going on. Good.

Arline  18:07  
And so you said Christianity had been working for you. But you said the deconstruction, you said the church was failing people was it just personally or so

Kyler  18:15  
a little bit of there were several things so failing, in the sense, so we went to a church here in Atlanta, that was very, I'm gonna say yappy. So lots of people who, you know, had money, and lots of people who now not works based, but we're looking at it you could definitely there it was more of a like, throw your money at people instead of helping prosperity gospel, not so much prosperity gospel as much as you just have all these rich people who said, Well, why don't I just give money to these people instead of actually going to? I see. You know? So one of the big ways that we mean Lily got failed, the church failed, I started to fail us on the beginning was our second oldest son getting diagnosed with anxiety and Asperger's. And the church had no answer or care to help us. They watched us constantly sit outside the sermons because he couldn't be in them. He couldn't we couldn't take him to childcare. And they just didn't do anything about it. It just didn't care. You know, and so we sat silently suffering in the church while they just kind of did their crap and let us get out there and didn't didn't do anything other than try to tell us you all you let your kid cried out or, you know, that kind of thing. And so and then it also failed in the form of, you know, wanting to get messy with people who Were messy, right? They, they wanted to be a church, they wanted to be a place that you know, let messy people join. But they, they wanted you to join so you could become right. So you could change they didn't want to. I think they tried to deal with your mess, and all the shit and all the baggage that you carry, but they really had no answer for it. And they just wanted to point you to this counselor, this Bible study or this men's group or this and it's like, no, I've got questions about why I was, you know, sexually assaulted by 10 plus men that I don't, I don't really give a crap about your, you know, your Bible study I want to, but which, at the time, you know, I didn't exactly know about all of this, because the way di D works is, it will suppress those memories. And so I'm this, you know, person who has PTSD has no clue where it's really from, has all this trauma, and pain and hurt and has no clue what it's from. And the church just wants to throw Bible verses and stuff at you doesn't want to help you. And so, that was kind of the the, the biggest failing kind of happens after we got our diagnosis of di D. So that comes a little later in the story. But the failing where I kind of lost my shit on this church and pulled every every elder and the pastor side that I knew, cussed them out and said, screw you happened a little later in the storyline

so what kind of happened was I I struggled a lot with depression, self harm. Just feeling like a worthless piece of shit. Really, honestly, and not really knowing why and life that why have these feelings. And we kind of had this, we had the car wreck. And that kind of brought forward for the for us at the moment that there's these people in our head talking. And they're different people than who I am. Right? Okay. I don't recommend the movie. But the movie split, we were watching and afterwards, the personality at the time when that's us. That actually happens in our mind, like, what's happening in this movie that that happens. And so we started to walk down kind of a path of seeking how to get help for that we had gone to a, a Christian therapist, who the next few people I'm gonna talk about if more Christians were like them, we'd still probably be Christian. Like, the type of people where you can actually see love and kindness and just general want to help you right? Like if if the church was like them, holy shit. They would move the mountains that they think they could, right. And they would be the the force for good that they think that they are. We did a personality test before we had our diagnosis. And the guy was like, I need you to do another one. And we're like, okay, and we did a second one. And it didn't match up. Oh, wow. Yeah. And so he was like, as a as just a counselor. He couldn't exactly diagnosis with DD multiple personalities. But he was like, Yeah, I think you I think you might have this right. And we just kind of blew it off because it wasn't until after the wreck and after Valentine's Day of 20 2018 where we got our official diagnosis. After we went to the psych ward again and got a diagnosis the at the same church we're at that was treating us like crap, right? They brought in a new counselor, who was actually educated was actually schooled on trauma and schooled on therapy and all of these things, right, like an actual licensed professional was brought into. And she was amazing. She took the she was willing to I might get emotional here but she was willing to take the message ship that was us and go let me let me fix let me help you Not let me throw money at you. Now let me I mean, the the amount of time she put into us was amazing, you know, and I have nothing, nothing bad to say about her, right? Like, she never did anything in my eyes that she really was, like I said, if more people were like her more people were like the other counselor, I think there's a chance we'd still be a Christian, right? Maybe? Probably not. We asked him any questions. So we get diagnosed with our di, D, and then we get on medicine. So we got on a ton of antidepressant and, like, help medicine to help with sleep. And from there, this is kind of where the story takes a little bit of a, here's the second view on our life, because now enters all of these personalities, people who are, you know, different ages, different genders, different sexualities in our mind, right, same same body, but it's almost like you've have 10, roommates, 13, roommates sharing headspace, but living with one body, right. And it was very chaotic for a long time. When you have personalities who are now able to be themselves, and they feel pain, they feel anger, they don't necessarily want to be married, they don't want to be a father. Or they're nonverbal. They don't talk they're, you know, they're within a DI D system called littles. And so they're, you know, five, six years old, they don't they're not, they don't have to communicate these things, right? They just know that they want to a stuffed animal. And to be comforted. They don't know what they don't, they don't want to raise children, right. And so you it switched from it's kind of weird, because Kyler is actually the the person that was hosting at the time up until we had d&d host being the main person who runs the system, or the main person who you see in front of you every day, who does your day to day things, it can look very different. For everybody who has the ID, right, the way a host works can be the person who just does your daily tasks to the person who, who is, you know, out there, the majority of the time for us, it was the latter. He was more of a Christian. And he was more he was the one who Lily really dated, and Lily really, in a way fell in love with. And it had been his life that had been being lived, essentially up until that point. So enter all of these other people who want to have their own lives, including myself, right? And I know that can be a little confusing the whole Kyler and me being I still go by Kyler because it just makes the most sense, right. But I do go by a different name internally in the head, in this system. But it you know, Kyler decided, in a way to leave to just be done as an as an altar. And that kind of threw a big wrench into things in life, right? Because here you have me, who is a part of a system has not necessarily been I've been there the whole time. I've seen all this stuff. But I've seen it from an internal point of view. And I don't believe in God at all. So here's where that kind of switch was of he's gone. I want nothing to do with the with the church. And this kind of came after a very close friend of ours at the time, their daughter was molested within the church by somebody in the church and it was swept under the rug. And I still to this day have immense anger over it like to watch people I respected at the time or were respected at the time to watch and it was it was swept under the rug because the teenager that did it was the son of the best friend of the pastor.

Unknown Speaker  29:51  
Okay, and

Kyler  29:54  
I found out because obviously it's one of my closest friends at the time. It's his daughter, right like there's no Like, he was afraid, I think, at first to tell me because he knew I was gonna lose my shit. And I did. I watched them, let this family fall off the face of the earth and just say, Fuck you, we're just gonna leave you, we're gonna cover this up, we're gonna let you bleed dry, and we're not even going to check on you. We're not going to see how you do and we're not going to make sure your daughter has you know, therapy, we're just going to kind of sorry, that happened, blah, blah, blah, just trust God

when I found out, I individually pulled aside every elder, this was me and Kyler at the same time doing this as in a way of, I think just pure anger of calling, you know, called them out as cowards, as poor leaders. As you know, why would you let you have a wolf in sheep's pen? You're supposed to be the shepherd. How dare you, you know, kind of do Real men don't do this kind of thing. Like, you want to be some real Christian man. Go fuck yourself. Right? Like, and when I say I knew all the eldership I knew all the eldership like, we were. I didn't know we were always that guy. That was friends with everybody but never quite ourselves. The elder Right. Which I'm so glad we never were but and then the pastor in the same thing. pulled him aside, told him he was a coward. How dare you cover this up? You know, how do you get this quiet, and not help this fan, I was more upset about the helping the family than I was the keeping it quiet. I just kind of assumed that that always happens in a church. Right. But the whole the whole, just letting the family that suffered. Get hurt was too much for me. And that was kind of my me as somebody as an altar. would never, you know, even if I had been considering Christianity at the time, I never would have after that. Right? And then to see Kyler at the time, that was his just kind of like the world sucks. I'm done with it moment. You know why? Why? You know, we've asked all these questions. We've not gotten the answers. When we get answers there. Just trust God trust, you know, it's God's plan. Fuck his plan, you know what I mean? Kind of be like, yeah, if that's his plan, I want nothing to do with it. Right? If his plan is to let children be molested, if his plan is to let go, you know, the glory of himself come out. Because somebody's dad couldn't keep it in their pants, then fuck him. Like, I really want nothing to do with that. And so that's, you know, that's kind of the breaking, I guess the moment for us where we were just done. We just just just as a, as a whole, as a system. We just this, this was the biggest failure you could have is to let this little girl get treated that way and then not do anything for her. I spent my whole life having nobody there. You know, you know, my questions for the church, you know, through this time, right? We were asking earlier about, you know, what was going on during this time? Part of this, my questioning was, Where was Jesus? When I was being molested? Where was he? Was he sitting in a room watching me? Because if so, that's, that's just why why would why can't How can you say you're right? How can you? How can you say I have a plan for you, I've created you. I've, I've done all these things and then just go, Well, I was there. But I didn't do anything about it. Right? That's not a loving, caring God. That's just a psychopath, who enjoys watching things. You know? If somebody did that, as a human being, they go to jail. Right? Absolutely. Why would I worship somebody like that? Right? And so, I don't know, if we just decided, like, you know, what I was saying earlier about how some people do the research, right? And they discover God's not real or they, you know, they, they have these moments. That kind of lead. I just, I more or less decided I wanted nothing less to do with God. And I wanted nothing more I wanted. I wanted to be as far away from his plan, quote, unquote, or his Um, desire designed for me, you know, as I could, because that was that's just bullshit. Whether he was real or not whether he was the creator of the universe or not, I didn't care. I don't care. You know, I would rather in a suits burn in hell than spend eternity. With that. You know what I mean? Yeah, no,

Arline  35:25  
I very much understand that that was a big part of my husband's deconversion was just realizing like, if I'm a better parent, than the god I'm supposed to think is like, all good and all knowing and wise and loving. But I treat my children way better than he treats his creation like, this isn't I should not have better morals be more ethical than the god I'm supposed to worship? And he's like, even if God is real, I don't I'm not going to worship him. He's not worthy of it.

Kyler  35:54  
Yeah, no, I definitely. I said that same boat of just like, you'll never get another ounce of my praise my, you know. And, you know, it's just, and then, you know, then you add on to knowing what I learned in Bible, what we learned in Bible college, knowing what we knowing that there was just never these answers that we asked all these questions. Oh, this doesn't make sense. Why? Why were you allowed to sleep with your daughter in this part of the Bible, but now you can't hear? Like, why were you? You know, all these things? Like, you know, that just, there's Adam and Eve, they're the first creator. And then like, their kids go off and meet other people. Where did they come? Yeah,

Arline  36:38  
wait, yeah.

Kyler  36:40  
Are we gonna just skip where they created? Did these kids? Do you know that these kids have to have sex with their parents to have other kids to grow more? Like, just, if you read the Old Testament, it's fun to read and all that right. It's probably the scariest book you could ever read is the Old Testament.

So you just add on in all of that, and we just decided we were done. And then about, I would say, probably about three years ago is really, three years ago is where I as an author started hosting and started taking over right, that's 2020, kind of during the crazy pandemic, where I think everybody nowadays has a story of how they're like how it changed their life, right? Everybody seems to have a cool, crazy, or a fucked up story right? Up 2020. That's where I kind of really started to become who I am today. We stayed on our medicine up until about until about six months ago, I think it was now we were just on such a high dosage that we couldn't, we either had to change medicines, we could do more, or we had to figure something else out because we were on so much Anna depressants and so much. But it was amazing to see when we just decided I'm done being a Christian. How much easier life got just our anxiety dropped, our depression dropped our you know, self worth went up, skyrocketed. And not in a cocky way just in like, Oh, I'm actually worth something. I'm not this, this piece of shit that needs this person to tell me every day that I'm, you know, his and loved by Him, right? Like I in myself can just be this. This loved person. And we watched our happiness go up, we watched our joy continued to rise, we watched it was a transition for us and other parts to come out. Right? It was a transition to go from being you know, just alters in the head to now having to run the show. And having to manage that and having to having to figure out how that was going to work with other parts. And a lot of it came down to just wanting to be the dad that we didn't have for these kids that we had in the house. Right? Not wanting to see them grow up and then you know, Lily, just being fucking amazing and pouring herself into us and being there for us. And, you know, lots of people, you know, our, our mother in law. Father in law, stepped up in ways that became parents where we didn't have them, right. Friends stepped in and just said, Hey, I like you no matter what you choose, right like, I, you know, having people embrace the the DI D side of our life is I think also what kind of helped was just they were just like, oh, not none of the Christians would have. Actually when we were a kid, we had a kind of an incident that happened. And I won't get into details of that, because it's kind of gruesome. But one pastor actually tried to tell us we had demons inside of us. Yeah. And so I would imagine

Arline  40:31  
that I mean, what other explanation?

Kyler  40:35  
You don't remember doing this for three hours long. But you did it was a demon, obviously. Right. And so, you know, tried to have those cast Alamy and prayed Atomy and removed and all that I'm so sorry. Well, I didn't work obviously. Now, we

Arline  40:50  
first had to think about little, little Kyler

Kyler  40:53  
was I was a teenager at the time, so I wouldn't as little but I definitely the abuse for me stopped at like, the sexual abuse for me. Because there's, there's sexual abuse, there's spiritual abuse within the church, and pastors and that kind of stuff. There's physical abuse from my mother and verbal, like, emotional abuse from her. That kind of was on and off, but also, she was being abused by him. We refer to him as dipshit. So I have to pause every time I say. That's why because we just call it dipshit. So the abusive dipshit, you know, that stopped at like about 15 When we put them in the hospital for taking his knee out in a fight. And we were just done with it. And it just kind of kind of stopped after that.

Arline  41:45  
Yeah, you can only abuse someone as they're growing up until they, yeah, are, yeah, grown men.

Kyler  41:52  
And, you know, Kyler at the time, didn't remember doing that to him. Whereas, you know, parts in the head came out as protector and said, Listen, now we're done. We're just Yeah. And so, so up until 15th. The abuse is where it kind of stopped and it was, it was kind of just him as a teenager. But he shared us with other people. And we were also be inspired doctor, we were abused by people within the church too. So youth pastor, music pastor, worship leader, I should say, at the time and and then several other smatterings of just I guess random abuse I don't know. I don't know if once you're abused you just kind of have this target on your back that makes you look like oh, that kid probably would let me do something to him without you know saying anything right. I was going somewhere with this but it completely just escaped my brain as to where I was going but

Arline  42:58  
it's okay you were you were just going back to think give some more backstory to the abuse like where all that had happened.

Kyler  43:08  
It was kind of a you know, a lifelong thing until we were so you have all this childhood abuse that you can't I never really told you I'm a bucket of trauma. Which is funny because you've got this you've got this childhood abuse and then you've got the shit that just happens is bad luck shut the atmosphere as adult you blow you blow your knee twice you lose a you have a miscarriage that tears that rip you to shreds right literally we had a miscarriage I was on a flight the next day to find a place to live here we move here the job I was moving here for leaves me says Now we're not actually going to hire you but they go under completely under so we didn't get reimbursed for anything so we're just kind of stuck here in Atlanta and you just start to it just all starts to kind of add up right a car wreck just we had we owned a house that just seemed to plumbing just seemed to never want to work it just it just kind of was all you know you have all this stuff that as you get older is kind of adult stuff but you pile that on with the childhood stuff and it just plumbing overflowing into your sink becomes a way bigger deal than what it should be you know yeah and that kind of goes back to to some of the church stuff is like they were never willing to like help you with that they just want to throw money at you. I'll just get this fit here here's money to go do this here's my to do that never wanted to come in and you know help but

Arline  44:46  
yeah, giving up their time and their energy versus just throwing money which

Kyler  44:51  
is amazing to see the the non Christian community almost feels the not the opposite. Now that they won't get money but man Yeah, but it's like oh, You got a problem with your 3d printer? Cool, let's let's hang out. Let's figure it out. Let's get it done like, Oh, you got a problem with your, your plumbing? Oh, I know somebody let's come over and help you get it fixed right which is it's really funny to see the non, I'm gonna call it the non Christian community be more loving and more like what Jesus would abandon the Christian community ever, ever was.

Arline  45:23  
man Yeah

So where are you now spiritually like, What? What? What do y'all believe or not believe?

Kyler  45:39  
I don't know. That's like,

Arline  45:42  
but isn't it nice to just not know and you don't have to have an answer. That's the

Kyler  45:46  
I think that's, that's where I'm at is I'm comfortable? Like people would be like, you know why ask you? Well, why don't you want to know what you believe? No, I don't actually, I think that allows me to be a more open minded person. And allows me to have better conversations with humans and better conversations with individuals just, I don't come from a prejudiced or a pre notion of what I believe and saying, what No, it's this. So when you talk with someone who's Muslim, or Jewish, or you talk with someone who's, you know, a witch, or a Wiccan, or, you know, all these things, you can really just have a good conversation about getting to know them and what they believe. And you don't have to worry about trying to convert them to anything. And I'm okay with them. And I'm okay to be wrong, too. I'm okay with if, like, if I died today, and I was wrong. Okay, cool, right? Once saved, always saved, right? If you're not Nazarene. And so I just like, I've kind of go with the flow, right? Like, I believe that there's probably I don't know if it's energy or spiritual or what, but obviously, there's something right whether did somebody Yeah, like, did somebody create us? And then just walk off? Did somebody is there someone who is a god, but maybe isn't omnipotent? Is there nobody? Was it the Big Bang? Did we just kind of randomly come out of nowhere? I don't know. You know, yeah. And I also don't know that I have the energy to care. Like,

Arline  47:32  
that's true. There's so many other things, more pressing things.

Kyler  47:37  
I rather I rather go play catch in the backyard with my son, then fuss over or worry about creation or existence or, which is funny because we just, if you would have known, if somebody from our past saw who we were today, they'd be shocked that I wasn't willing to sit and apologetics was a big part of who we were. We could argue like, it's funny, because that's probably part of, of what led us to ask why a lot was we just maybe so we could we get out think pastors at a young age, apologetically, I could, you know, I could put pastors in their place apologetically, as some 10 year old, who's got some guy from seminar, who I know understand more about the Bible, and I can argue it better than you can, and I can disprove your Nazarene or your Baptist or your nondenominational belief. Easily, right. So if you saw me now, if you saw this guy who just kind of doesn't care, obviously, you wouldn't understand what the D ID thing, right? But you also you'd be I think you'd be shocked because I just, it's so hard after like, after, after all of that crap, you just want to be, you just kind of want to take a break. Like, maybe one day, I'll get to a point where I want to look at, or read books about spirituality or want to, you know, dive into, you know, energy or, you know, crystals, I don't know, but the way that their options,

Arline  49:25  
yeah,

Kyler  49:26  
but and it's like, you know, we're all if you think about it, we're all you know, Christians call it prayer. Scientists call it one thing, you know, other people call it, you know, putting it into existence, you know, it's all it's all the same. It's just a matter of kind of what perspective you come from, with it. And for me, I'm just at a point where I think it's better for my life for us as a human for us as a father for us as a partner to just not spend time diving into it because it's just exhausting, right? To try to try to know what you believe right to know what you know. And to know. It's just I'd rather just have fun conversations like this about belief and about, you know what you think, then try to figure out and pinpoint exactly what I believe. Yeah,

Arline  50:17  
I love it

is there anything I should have asked that I didn't ask that you wanted to talk about? We have a few more minutes. Yeah, I feel like I rambled

Kyler  50:33  
a lot. But I think I don't know if there's anything you should have asked that would assume you did something wrong. But no, I think that it's our story is hard to tell, because the DI D throws this wrench into it of like, he, you're not who you were back then. Right. And so you have this whole story that almost can be crumpled up and thrown out the window, because I'm not that person. And I came in as a host as an altar at the time when we needed to just step away from the church and we needed to not be and I was I have no no qualms being that guy and going, Oh, fuck you. were gone. Like, I'll pull us out of any situation and just be like, and that we're good. Forget it. So I think, you know, for us, it was it's just sad to see. The church, it's always sad to see the church fail people in the mental health perspective, right. Mental health is such a big deal. And it feels like the world could be at a better mental health place if Christians would take on a better view of like the therapist who who helped us if the Christians had that view. Oh, my goodness, man, what a what a place we'd be in right now. We'd be in a great place. But everybody would I think. So it's, you know, it's hard to watch sometimes I think and look back and go. The worst part is when you look back and go, Man, Did I really say that at one point in time in life like that? I really fucking tweet that. Like, did I did I, you know? And I think so the other thing I kind of wanted to talk about too, is I think, I used to be very homophobic. And a lot of that came from, I think, a couple things. One, you were raised in the 90s. Right? I was so everything was gay. You desegregate everything.

Arline  52:44  
Right. Yeah. It was an insult. Yeah, it was,

Kyler  52:46  
you know, if or if you didn't like it, it was just gay. Right? Yeah, I grew up, you know, because they're a Christian. So obviously, you're told Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, right. And then you add on trauma from men. And so all you see is men who, like men are bad men who like men do bad things, right. And thankfully, at our first like, job we had was Starbucks, we constantly had to work with these two gay guys, and they were very willing to take our crap. And let us ask some questions. And let us let us talk about it a little bit. And let us just kind of realize that not all cats are black. Right? And the logical the logic puzzle, you know, that just because these people did that, and actually the gay community aren't the ones that actually it's the ones that pretend to be straight. Yes, that are the ones that do the harm. Right? Harming children. Yeah. And so for, I think, after, you know, we've grown to be very big supporters of the LGBTQ plus community. Within the last, you know, 10 plus years, I think even III think even Kyler coming up with starting to realize and see those things and, you know, you loved the, or you hated the, what was the Hate the sin not the sinner, kind of crowd was, that's how he used to look at homosexuality, but I think, you know, as we've healed and as we've grown, we've been able to, to become very passionate supporters for that community and, and even, you know, find it pretty hard with nowadays, political stuff going on, you know, to not to not feel the the feel what they're going through and stuff and so it It was, it was really hard, I think at first to overcome that. But as we walked out of the church, it became a lot easier to embrace that community to love that community to almost feel like they're the better community. In a way, the more loving community, the more the Kinder community. And so it was. It's been nice to, to also look at communities and people differently and go, Oh, wow, I got this wrong. And you know, wow, that that tweet in that Facebook post pops up in your history right in Facebook, and you're like, like, Oh, yes. Did I really say this at one point in time in life? Like, man, I'm sorry to ever saw that, you know?

Arline  55:49  
Yes. Yes. The stuff we believe the stuff we preach the stuff we thought about ourselves and others, it's Facebook memories are not always fun, sometimes are wonderful, but

Kyler  56:01  
rarely, rarely for us. Are they? Are they? Okay, they tend to bring back some stuff, you know, it's like, they don't for us, you know, we didn't know. So at the time when we got married dipshit was in our wedding. Right? And so like, I can't look at any of our wedding pictures without getting triggered and stuff like that. So, yeah, it's it sucks. But going back and looking at those times, you just, you just you want to vomit or be like, Man, I suck. So hard. Yeah, I'm so glad I'm not bad anymore. Right? Yeah,

Arline  56:37  
you're a different person.

Kyler  56:39  
I'm so glad I'm converted from being converted.

Arline  56:42  
I like it. Kyler thank you so much for for telling your story. Last question. Do you have any recommendations that have helped you in any part of your journey podcasts, YouTube videos, books, anything?

Kyler  56:55  
I think the majority of my helping has has been, go go have conversations with actual people, and other books, podcasts and all that are great. But like, for us, it was getting into the nitty gritty with real people. And, you know, surprisingly, I guess I will say this, if you've ever read the Brandon, if you've not read the Brandon Sanderson series Stormlight Archives, right? That's a big, that's a, that's the nerdy part of our journey would be those books gave us an outlet to, to cry to feel. And that deals heavily with PTSD and actually has a character that has dissociative identity disorder in it. And there's a part in one of the books where we just I think it's the hardest I've ever cried in my life. And it was actually a pretty healing moment for us to just to read it and see it, right. So fictional books, yeah, I guess a bit, but a lot of talks with close friends or, you know, people just loving us. People not giving a shit, that we're this weird person with multiple personalities that they just, they just want to get to know us and maybe even some of the personalities. You know, Kennedy also. Yeah, I guess I'm not the most learned of people on on your podcast, but for me, it was fictional books and conversation with people, I think is what I recommend.

Arline  58:31  
Now, I love it conversations with people like how I'm a huge advocate for reading fiction, because there are people who will only read nonfiction, which blows my mind. Like, I just think about fiction books. Like for me, things like Jane Austen written, you know, over 100 years ago, still funny and still clever, because people act the same way like the same societal things and issues and so, so fiction is a fantastic way to understand yourself and other people.

Kyler  58:58  
Yeah, well, and fiction to fiction that's not written within, like, the world we live in. Now that's written in its own kind of world, and that space is never going to get it's never going to get outdated. Right? Like, it's never gonna have like, well, that doesn't make sense now, because we have TVs kind

Arline  59:14  
of thing right? Oh, that's interesting. That's a good point. Yeah, it just

Kyler  59:17  
kind of stays in its own time frame. And so you can you can get lost in these worlds. And people like Brandon Sanderson and that and multiple other alters he just happens to be my favorite. Give you a space to get lost in and heal at the same time. And to get lost in and journey with these characters. Love these characters. Cry with these characters rejoices characters, and it gives you a space outside of trauma gives you a space outside of the ship that is the world at times to just kind of go. Let me dive for five hours into this book. Love it, find a place to just kind of heal it and enjoy.

Arline  1:00:01  
Yes. Oh, I love that explanation about fiction. That's yeah, I love it. Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast and have a fabulous day. Kyler

Kyler  1:00:11  
Thank you. Appreciate it

Arline  1:00:20  
my final thoughts on the episode. I am really thankful for Tyler's authenticity, his transparency, his willingness to tell their story. It breaks my heart when I think about like him when he was little. And as a teenager and the the abuse suffered. I don't even know the reasons you know, you don't. You don't always know the why things happen. What adults were thinking when they did these things, or allowed these things to happen. But like, who he is now who is grown to be and the partner that he is that dad. It's amazing. What getting away from religion getting away from abuse. It's amazing how hold and full and happy and even clear minded. One can be calm, when you don't have all the extra anxiety of Why is God not taking care of me? Where is God in the middle of this? Why hasn't God done something? How is this loving? Like it's just it's so much and it's amazing what our brains like the lengths our brains will go to to keep us alive. Here his mind did so much to keep him alive when he was little as he got older into adulthood. And it is just amazing. Our bodies. They're just amazing. Yeah, to keep him alive. I think I think my takeaway for myself personally is just a another reminder of how great fiction can be for people. Just being able to have a world that you can get away to, even if it looks like our world, or if it's completely different on a different planet or in this made up realm. It's good for us to be able to go places and like he said, weep and rejoice and have all the emotions, but it's safe to be afraid, but it's safe. Fiction is just wonderful, amazing movies, books. Any kind of wonderful stories, true stories also. Anyway, thank you again, Kyler. For being on the podcast, I'm honored that you would tell your story.

David Ames  1:02:57  
The secular Grace Thought of the Week is simply reach out and get help. Many of the faith traditions that we have been a part of have dissuaded us from seeking therapy or psychological help of one form or another Kyler story represents that he was unable to get the help that he needed until he was on his way out. I simply want to say that that there are many ways to find help. If you are experiencing suicidal ideation, call 988 immediately within the United States and get immediate help. If you're in the middle of deconstruction and you need someone to speak to you can speak to someone immediately from the recovering from Religion Foundation, both web based and on the phone. Links will be in the show notes for that. And then finally, if you're looking for a secular therapist, I recommend the secular therapy project. You can find therapists in your area, as well as telemedicine who are not going to tell you to pray harder. Please, if you find yourself in a place where you need help, reach out and find help. Next week, we have Benoit Kim, who is the host of the Discover more podcasts. Ben was not the traditional guest for this podcast. He and I disagree on a number of things, including the fact that he is a Christian as well as his very strong interest in psychedelics in a clinical psychological setting. But at the same time, we have a lot in common what I would call secular Grace Benoit is interested in helping people become the best that they can be. It is a fascinating conversation and I hope that you will check it out next week. Until then, my name is David and I am trying to be the graceful atheist join me and be graceful human beings. The beat is called waves by MCI beats. Do you want to get in touch with me to be a guest on the show? Email me at graceful atheist at Gmail dot Calm. For blog posts, quotes, recommendations and full episode transcripts head over to graceful atheists.com. This graceful atheist podcast, a part of the atheists United studios Podcast Network

Transcribed by https://otter.ai